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Todd Palmer and Rob Pringle

Todd Palmer and Rob Pringle

Posted: November 7, 2008 11:43 PM

The Last Word On Proposition 8


In our last post, we vented our frustration with the decision of voters in California, Florida, and Arizona to write anti-gay discrimination into their state constitutions. Clearly, many readers share our sentiments--there is a great deal of anger out there on what is otherwise an exultant day in progressive America.

But we wanted to sound an optimistic note before we go back to writing blogs about science and nature that nobody will read.

The most revealing statistic from the Proposition 8 exit polls is not, as many have argued, that 70% of African Americans voted for it (African Americans constituted only about 6% of the electorate, so to blame Prop 8's passage on black people is to miss the statistical boat by a mile). Rather, we should be focusing on the fact that 61% of voters under 30 voted against the measure, regardless of their race. Break that statistic down further, and you'll see that opposition was strongest among voters under 24. The older the voter, the more likely he or she was to have supported the amendment.

In other words, the generation that is busy inheriting the politisphere strongly favors equal rights for all citizens. The sun is setting on those who would bar their neighbors from participating in our institutions on the basis of race, creed, or sexual orientation. Many people become incrementally more conservative as they age, but for most, their core values will not change radically.

Ironically, the election that brought us Proposition 8 also brought us the most compelling evidence that discriminatory measures like Proposition 8 have a short life expectancy. As Judith Warner noted in her eloquent editorial yesterday, the people for whom race loomed largest in this election tended to be older folks. Sure, young Americans with a sense of history (ourselves included) were deeply touched by the symbolic importance of Obama's victory. We cried a bit, sang a bit, shouted and danced around a bit. But race has just never been as big a deal for us as it was for people of our parents' generation.

So it will go with the struggle against marital discrimination. We shall overcome this, too. The last word will belong to the young people who stood up overwhelmingly against Proposition 8. That doesn't take away any of the sting for the people whose lives have been affected by this ugly turn. But perhaps the inevitability of victory will give strength to those who carry on the fight.

In our last post, we vented our frustration with the decision of voters in California, Florida, and Arizona to write anti-gay discrimination into their state constitutions. Clearly, many readers share...
In our last post, we vented our frustration with the decision of voters in California, Florida, and Arizona to write anti-gay discrimination into their state constitutions. Clearly, many readers share...
 
 
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05:32 PM on 12/07/2008
(DISCLAIMER: DR. PALMER--I love you! You're so hot, and I go to class everyday just to see you =D. And you're a "teacher" in my daydreams in class, too...haha)

Hell-o to the end of the world as we speak, for bigots absolutely suck!

Faith, bad experiences, personal preferences, etc. shouldn't mix with enacting legislation. Would citizens like politicans doing this? Uh, let's think. NO!

Where would we be without Elton John, the frisky Ancient Greeks, Tila Tequila, "Will and Grace", Ellen Degeneres, Ian McKellen, that short guy from "Grey's Anatomy", "I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry", Lindsay Lohan, Neil Patrick Harris from "Harold and Kumar", and most importantly, DUMBLEDORE?

The world would be a "sad" place without gays and their rights, not privileges, not rewards, but RIGHTS.

So citizens of the world---the same citizens who probably funded the GOP and President
George Wacky Bush---UNITE. Unite and stand up or sit down if you're tired. But start thinking "STRAIGHT" and let's reverse this atrocity should another opportunity (not opportunity cost, mind you!) arise!!!!!!!!!!!

PS Love you, TMP!!!!!!!!!!! MUAH
03:11 PM on 11/23/2008
I'm in your class. I agree with your Proposition 8 opinions.

Anyway, most of my friends and I are in your class. We all think you're hot, which is pretty much
the only reason we go to class!

Thank you for making at least ONE class at UF a tad more interesting, Dr. Palmer!!! ;)
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JohnBisceglia
01:41 PM on 11/16/2008
21st CENTURY PROTEST has begun!

The National Equality Tax Protest
- Wednesday, April 15th, 2009 -

* Will the IRS begin to value our human rights when 30,000,000 tax forms are withheld?
* Will heterosexuals who "support us" do more than just wish us happy thoughts and good luck?
* Will heterosexuals who do NOT support us start to care about our tax dollars once they shoulder
MUCH MORE of the US tax burden?

Stay Tuned, Tax Payers....
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kellygrrrl
04:35 PM on 11/08/2008
The Entertainment Industry needs to take a firm stand and BOYCOTT the Sundance Film Festival.
Boycott Utah Tourism! Skiers should go to CO this year instead.
Find the businesses in your area who financed this hateful act of discrimination and BOYCOTT!
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jacqmac
02:10 PM on 11/08/2008
THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST WORD ON PROP. 8!!
The RIGHT knew what it was doing when it started it's petition drive to put Prop. 8 on the ballot in November. A PERFECT WEDGE!! That is what it was!! The RIGHT made Gay Marriage an issue in this election.
Here's the deal: President-elect Obama ran on a platform that called for CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL CITIZENS! There are at LEAST TEN ITEMS on his AGENDA that could be called 'pro-Gay' (PASSAGE AND SIGNING of the MATTHEW SHEPHERD ACT for one).
Melissa Etheridge and others are calling for a 'tax holiday' for Gays! That WILL DEFINITELY HURT the State of California MORE than a few men and women getting married to people of the same sex! I say "Go for it'! DON'T GO AWAY or move out of the State (unless you really want to). STAND AND FIGHT!! Note to the Right Wing: YOU LOST IN THE LONG RUN! Sorry! But we WILL NOT GO AWAY!!
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Cactusman
Persons of Cactus, Unite!
01:25 PM on 11/08/2008
After reading hundreds of comments on numerous articles dealing with Prop 8 in CA, I conclude a couple of things:

1. Getting into a victimization and outrage competition with other minorities isn't going to make our case to overturn Prop 8. Acting aggrieved, though tempting and even justified, isn't going to win the hearts and minds of voters who need persuasion that placing the human rights of any minority up for popular vote is unconstitutional, and unamerican.

2. Taking the long view that eventually civil rights and marriage equality will prevail is necessary, although complacency must be avoided. All these state "marriage protection" amendments have numbered days as this issue rises and more people are educated.

3. Going after the tax-exempt status of the Mormon Church for getting overtly politically involved in a state issue is a legal tactic that should be explored closely.

4. Enforcing the equal-treatment-under-law clauses contained within the US and State Constitutions is perhaps the best, fastest way to overturn these discriminatory measures.

Although disheartened by the passage of antigay amendments in several states in light of the jubilation I felt over Obama's election, I do think that rapid progress can be made under an Obama administration. Even constitutional amendments are not the last word on the subject. They are more difficult to overturn than simple laws are, but they can be overturned or removed. We did it with Prohibition, and we will do it with discriminatory marriage laws too.
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kymlosang
02:48 PM on 11/08/2008
Yes, the tax exempt status of churches that are overtly political must end. hit these institutions in the pocket book and perhaps they will stop trying to run the potical spectrum. and beyond that, they should not legally have the status due to the church and state seperation laws. the morman church is full of poilicies that i find very problematic but i believe in live and let live so i have never given it much thought untl now. when they press into the lives of others, harming them along the way, that's when i can no longer stand silent. there is a high priest in the morman church and i sadly do not recall his name, who is standing against the morman church on the gay rights issues. he is not gay, but he refuses to discriminate despite the teachings of his church. he will be excommunicated very soon but he stands strong against his entire church and will be ridiculed and abandoned but he will not waiver and believes in equal rights for all. and there are others that are beginning to stand with him. so we should be careful to make sure it is the institution of religious intolerance we stand against in this case, and not all mormons. there are some who stand with us despite all odds against them.
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kellygrrrl
04:35 PM on 11/08/2008
stripping the tax-exempt status of politcally-active churches will HELP solve our deficit problem and send a very clear message to the NeoChristoFascoFringe
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zetacplus
Conservatism has failed America
12:20 PM on 11/08/2008
And lets not forget Don't Ask Don't Tell. A gay person in the military still cannot even tell their friends they are gay--how is that for their core values when they preach integrity, honesty, and excellence. Those core values ring hollow to any gay person serving in the armed forces. In this day and age when a black man can win a presidential election while our gay brothers and sisters can't even be honest about their sexual orientation to their fellow Airmen, soldiers, marine, or shipmate is beyond rational thought.
09:33 AM on 11/08/2008
Todd and Rob, you make a valid point. Equal rights are going to happen. They are as inevitable as anything gets. Things like Prop. 8 can delay them, but they can't change the reality. We aren't going to give up, we are going to work harder, and if nothing else eventually enough of the opponents of equality will die off.
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kemstone
Just another opinionated nobody.
08:50 AM on 11/08/2008
Thinking of gays as a GROUP is part of what leads to bigotry targeting them.

In my view, there are is no magical line that divides gay and straight. There is a broad range of sexual inclinations and everyone falls somewhere on the spectrum. You may prefer 1- inter-gender sex as a man with a woman, 2- inter-gender sex as a woman with a man, 3- same-gender sex as a man with a man, or 4- same gender sex as a woman with a woman. OR you may prefer 5- inter-gender sex as a man with a woman EVEN IF YOU’RE A WOMAN, 6- inter-gender sex as a woman with a man EVEN IF YOU’RE A MAN, 7- same gender sex as a man with a man EVEN IF YOU’RE A WOMAN, or 8- same-gender sex as a woman with a woman EVEN IF YOU’RE A MAN.

My point is, we need a completely different framework for thinking about human sexuality, and it begins with the abolition of the labels "gay" and "straight". Everyone is inclined towards a different partner. To draw arbitrary lines around half of these inclinations and set up legal barriers around them is absurd and ridiculous, and the best chance of getting rid of marriage-discrimination laws is to frame it not necessarily as a civil rights issue but as an issue of taking government legislation out of an area where it has no business being in the first place.
08:30 AM on 11/08/2008
This vote should be a wake-up call for gay and lesbian activists to understand the need to invest more time in black communities supporting their gay African-American brothers and sisters. Gay and lesbian communities should not "feel" disappointment in African-Americans for not appearing to fully understand the outcome of their support for Prop 8. This election was a fulfillment of past civil rights efforts which originated in CHURCHES. As African-Americans participated in a dream to see an individual more closely resembling themselves finally elected, a majority of those voters probably did so after learning about the importance of their voice and vote reinforced in their local CHURCH. Most likely this is the same place they (the African-American voter) learned about Prop 8.

As many replies indicate, most have correctly focused their anger on Churches instead of a community of people. Until groups begin focusing efforts against the "counter-education" happening within minority communities through their local churches we will continue being disappointed with voter outcomes in ballots dealing with teaching alternatives to evolution, people not supporting contraception access in our public schools, the importance of fruit flies in research, and as evidenced, on who is considered a married couple.

This should be a wake up call to activists and all moved by Tuesday nights outcome, the enemy is not various segments of the population that voted for Obama, but rather the Churches that are promoting bigotry within our citizenry on a weekly basis.
07:45 AM on 11/08/2008
Would that this actually be the Last Word on Proposition 8.
06:25 AM on 11/08/2008
really makes you want to pursue advances in life-extending geriatric care. Not.
03:25 AM on 11/08/2008
It was the old people? Again? WTF is wrong with people over 35?
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Richrdh
03:00 AM on 11/08/2008
I made a great mistake. I was complacent. I half listened. I can't put this away.

As I half listened to everyone about same sex marriage, I began to see the issue in very stark terms. Discrimination. I was too late. Since election day, I have become angry, in fact I am outraged at what I have allowed to happen. An opportunity to put another nail in the coffin of discrimination. Instead the lid is barely closed.

I am angry for the missed opportunities to educate myself and the community at large, including people of color. I am sure that if people of color had known that the language used in the amendment to California's constitution is almost identical to the laws prohibiting marriage between blacks and whites they would have paused at the voting booth. They would have understood.

I am sure that if people of color heard a replay of the language of discrimination from the 60's and compared it to the language used against same sex marriage they would have paused at the voting booth. They would have understood.

I am sure if people were reminded that there was a ballot proposition that would keep gay and lesbian teachers out of the classroom in 1978, they would have paused at the voting booth. They would have understood.

I am sure we could have done more. I am sure I should have done more. I could have understood.

Yes, we can will again become yes we did it!
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05:42 PM on 11/08/2008
Great post. Thank you, Rich.
02:50 AM on 11/08/2008
This is why I am against people voting on such things.. What I find is the first sentence or two supposedly spells out what the measure is and what would result if you vote yes or no... Straightforward yes? No, because in this state anyway, there is the fine print that goes all legal and by the end of it unless you have studied your ballet before hand you have no idea if you are indeed voting for something by voting yes, or against by voting no..