Prebuttal to Petraeus: The Surge Has Failed

Comments

[vipersdad]

Something to think about.....
What if...just what if.....there are no goals or objectives in this war on purpose? What if a long protracted conflict that lasts 20 years or so is just what someone wants in that region? We all know there is nothing called "victory" or "defeat" that's possible in Iraq - just a bloody stalemate.

Those for the war ask yourselves: Who profits from this? Just open your mind and stop repeating silly talking points. Ask yourself: Who profits from this? Who has a stake in this nightmare? Follow the money and stop thinking this is about idealism or policy or creating a democratic Iraq.

who makes money from this?

[elderly]

STOP BEING DISTRACTED-

THIS POST SAYS IT ALL. THE IRAQ WAR WAS NOT A MISTAKE. IT WAS A BUSINESS DEAL FOR THE FRIENDS OF BUSH AND CHENEY.

STOP THINKING ABOUT ALL THE OTHER CRAP EVERYONE FEEDS YOU TO STOP YOU FROM UNDERSTANDING THE TRUTH.

[jankvkleve]

The thing which did work for a time, in contrast with "The Surge," was the negotiated cease fire with al Sadr. Ever since we overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran and installed the Shah as dictator we have been consistently belligerent and bullying in that part of the world. The point is not that we are failures, but that militarily enforced hegemony is a failed mindset. President Obama will negotiate a reasonable conclusion and the current set of warmongers -- draft dodgers all in their younger days -- will be seen as the real failures.

[research]

Goddamn America's Iraq Invasion and occupation WAR CRIME!

[ResidentChimp]

I don't think surrender monkeys should get to set our goals for us in this war. Nor should we use them as a bell weather for how we are doing. It's kind of eerie how the sureender monkeys' objectives are parallel to the terrrorists.

[grendl]

Surrender to who? We picked the fight. Who are we surrendering to?

Its like punching someone in the head, having them raise their fists, and decking you in defense. Iraqi's are just defending themselves, the way the Viet Namese did.

Because they live there, they have nowhere to go.

Resident Chimp, we knew when we beat the Germans in WW 1 and 2, by defeating them on the battlefield, and Hitler offing himself in his bunker, and Japan deciding the Atom bomb was reason enough to end their dream of world conquest. Who dreams of world conquest in Iraq?

Al Qaeda? They're a nickel and dime operation in Iraq. Are you saying this gentleman is suggesting surrendering to them? Or the Shiites? Or Sunnis?

They just want us the fuck out of their country. They're not looking for a surrender, they're looking to get their homeland back.

But tell me, how will we know when we've won this war? Tell all of us. If it makes sense we'll get behind it. If you don't know, then say so. Surrender monkey is a dopey insult.

[markusmarkus]

Well, the ChimpyMcFlightsuit sure can't seem to set any goals that matter. He just keeps moving the goal posts to suit the situation. Just like a republican - can't stand the facts.

[ShockedSHOCKED]

Remember Saddam's PR guy who kept insisting that the defense of Baghdad was going Great, GREAT as our Army entered the city 5 years ago? That is the level of credibility Republicans have on Iraq at this moment. They must be mocked just as we mocked the PR guy. Americans get lost in their patriotism when the Rs unfurl the flag, but a good mocking cuts through the BS like nothing else.

[mydogshakespeare]

ResidentChimp is paralyzed into inaction when ShockedSHOCKED by a rebuttal.

[Fez]

Exactly so. "Baghdad Bob" was mocked and ridiculed when he insisted that everything was coming up roses while Iraq burned. I am a firm believer in mockery and in rubbing Bush's nose in the mess he left on the carpet. Scorn, vituperation, sneering contempt, and mockery are the only rhetorical tools that are appropriate for the know-nothings in power. Forget civil discourse... this is war and the criminals must be confronted with their crimes, indicted, tried, and punished. Then we can resume some sort of rational conversation.

[desmirl]

Are you posting from Iraq? If not, why not? Actions talk, B.S. walks.

[maddogbitesback]

Chimpie - you are not funny, just pathetic. The war is a disaster. It has made Americans a joke and hated. It has diverted revenue from new technologies and heralds the end of America as top dog. Oh yes. I forgot - it was based on lies. The Saudis are still good buddies. Doesn't matter that the people who flew into the Twin Towers were Saudi and not Iraqi. The thing is Saddam Hussein was just not obedient enough.

[kdogz13]

This will be an argument that McCain will gladly take part in. Whether you agree with "the surge" or not - McCain put his political career on the line by arguing for the surge at a time when almost noone else would. As he said - he'd rather lose the election than lose a war. How many politicians can say that?

Yes - Obama is able to claim that he was "against" the war from the start - but how much of that is due to the convenient fact that he was serving in the Illinois Senate in a "safely Democratic" district. Does anyone really think that Obama would have been against the initial invasion if he had been a US Senator at the time?

McCain demonstrated REAL POLITICAL COURAGE - as opposed to just giving speeches. Where is Obama's political courage? Why all those "present" votes when serving in the Illinois Senate? It sounds great to say "I was against the invasion from the start"... ok what is your plan now. That's what the people want to hear. This isn't the spring of 2003 and we're not debating whether to go into Iraq. We are there. Get over it.

Obama's "plan" is to keep US forces in Iraq guarding the Embassy? Just like in "France and Britain?" And then keep a "strike force" to hit at Al Qaeda targets? That's a better plan than "paying any price, bearing any burden, to ensure the survival and the success of liberty?"

[scalene]

courage without prudence is bravado. america has already paid too high a price for that. yes, Obama's plan is better. McCain's brave words notwithstanding, the Iraq war is not about defending our liberty.

[kdogz13]

"Iraq war is not about defending our liberty."

Neither was JFK's quote about "paying any price to ensure the survival and the success of liberty" - JFK wasn't referring only to OUR liberty in that quote...

My my my... whatever happened to liberal idealism? The same people chanting about "freeing Tibet" are those who would do nothing to see it happen...

[grendl]

How do you lose a war when a definition for winning it hasn't even been determined?

McCain, as courageous, loyal and determined as he is, doesn't have a clue what constitutes victory in this war. He has the mindset of a grunt soldier, as he had in Viet Nam, told to take a hill, without questioning the ramifications of such an act. Or the pragmatic value of such an act, when the indigenous population will eventually get that hill back some day.

Staying the course doesn't help when you're headed for an iceberg. We've already hit one, and now are sinking into this abyss which is swallowing lives and resources without a trace of the political reconciliation that the surge was meant to bring about. But McCain isn't even bothered with that aspect.

He's busy trying to think of a militaristic solution to this mission. He's a grunt. When he was offered freedom in Viet Nam, based on his dad's high ranking as admiral, he declined to leave his men. Now he's walking around Iraq for the 8th time to be close to the troops. Thats great for a soldier, but not a commander in chief.

A president must as this nations protector, keep himself protected. He's not the President in " Independence Day" who gets into a fighter jet to battle aliens. Thats stupid. So what the fuck is McCain doing pressing his luck in Iraq. Certainly not learning the difference between Sunni and Shia, Al Qaeda and Iran.

[grendl]

This is the way for the left to beat the right in this election. Hit him on what he considers his greatest strength.

His stick-to-i­t-iveness, his perseverance. He thought we could have won in Viet Nam.

Won what, Senator McCain? Won what?

The indigenous people's population was ravaged and decimated, and burned by agent Orange, and brutalized, by this country trying to pound the tenets of freedom and democracy into their skulls. All they could feel was pain, not the true blue feeling you get when they raise the stars and stripes.

It was a lost cause. As is Iraq. And as noble as it was to stick it out in that POW camp, what was accomplished by it? You think George Bush you're best friend now wouldn't have hopped the nearest helicopter out of that jungle?

Staying the course, loyalty, perseverance, all are noble traits of foot soldiers. But a leader must re-evaluate situations as circumstances change, or don't change. Iraq is a rock, unchanging in the tribal and sectarian hatreds that have lasted centuries. They don't believe rivals are equals, they believe they're sworn enemies. And no amount of American weaponry or troop build-up is going to change their minds.

[kdogz13]

Oh yes - Obama knows soooo much more about Iraq. His statement about the "Anbar Awakening" being caused by the Democratic takeover of the US Congress in 2006 shows how in touch he is with the war.

At least McCain is trying to win the war. What has Obama done to try to help the US win the war? Where are his proposals? All he argues is that the war was a mistake and that we should withdraw 1-2 Brigade Combat Teams each month... which by the way is the fastest that we can withdraw through the ports in Kuwait...

[Rog49Thomas]

Sometimes it can help one's analysis by looking beyond the stated goal to the real goal.

The surge is indeed working.

It was designed

(1) to create the illusion of progress and incipient victory to lessen Iraq as a major political issue

(2) to push the problem of Iraq onto the next Administration (and have them take responsibility for losing Iraq or for staying there 100 years)

It's not only working. It's blooming brilliant.

One could look at Anapolis in the same light. Real peace conference or shadow puppet theater?

Judged on the first, a failure.

Judged on the second a bit more successful. There are actually goobers in the ME who still believe. And many of our brave client states in the area (and their kleptocratic elites) use these "shows" as a way of distracting their own people from the harsh reality on the ground.

Bring out that Mission Accomplished Banner!

[Singha]

By all means, withdraw ASAP!

[oldpotsmuggler]

Geez, how could you let a chance like this go by without mentioning the increase in hostilities between Iraqi Kurds and Turkey. I mean, I agree 100% with every point made herein, but it's also very reasonable to label the fighting up north as being an even greater issue than the internal hostilities down south.

[maddogbitesback]

oldpotsmuggler - that is a terrible fact that nobody brings up. Nobody considers the intensification of the "war" between the Palestinians and Israel. That is not going to go away.