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Victor Stenger

Victor Stenger

Posted: February 9, 2011 11:25 AM

A major contrast between religious or spiritual thinking and science concerns whether or not physical phenomena can simply be reduced to the sum of their parts. Basic physics, as described by the standard model of elementary particles and forces, is fully reductionist. This notion sticks in the craw of those who see themselves as part of a great, integrated whole.

In the scientific view, evolution reduces to a series of events that are local in space and time -- individual mutations that are passed on to the next generation. In the religious view, every event is part of grand scheme that applies holistically, under divine guidance, to the whole system from bacteria to humans and from billions of years in the past to the present and indefinite future. In the scientific view, physical events also reduce to a series of events local in space and time -- collisions between subatomic particles such as electrons and photons. In the view of quantum spiritualists, subatomic events are part of a grand scheme that applies holistically to every particle from an electron in a french fry at McDonald's to a photon in the cosmic background radiation billions of light-years away and billions of years in the past.

The conventional reductionist picture envisages a series of levels of matter. From elementary particles (or strings, or whatever is the most elementary) we move to the nuclei of atoms, then to the atoms themselves and the molecules that are composed of atoms. While only on the order of a hundred distinguishable atoms exist, the number of molecules is endless -- especially the huge structures built around carbon that form the ingredients of life and our fossil fuels, as well as many synthetic materials from plastics to polyesters.

The objects of our everyday experience are composed of molecules. Living organisms are an important component at this level, at least to us living organisms. How important they are on a cosmic scale is more dubious. Humans organize themselves into societies, so we can regard social systems -- politics, and economics -- as a yet higher level of material existence. Beyond that we have on Earth and its complex environment, the solar system, our galaxy, other galaxies, and whatever else is out there such as black holes, the cosmic background radiation, dark matter, dark energy, and other universes.

Now it should be obvious that an elementary particle physicist cannot take her equations and produce a derivation of every physical property we observe. She cannot calculate the structure of DNA from "first principles" or predict the stock market (though some have tried). At every level of matter from the smallest bodies to the largest we have specialists developing the principles that apply at that level by applying the time-honored methods of science -- observation, model building, and hypothesis testing. These principles are said to "emerge" from the level below. But the fact that we cannot derive everything from particle physics does not mean that the universe still isn't just a collection of particles.

Classical physics was reductionist. While direct proof of the existence of atoms was not found until the twentieth century, Newtonian mechanics was able to describe all of the behavior of macroscopic material systems -- gases, liquids, and solids -- in terms of the motions of their parts. The emergent principles of thermodynamics, which were introduced to describe macroscopic systems such as steam engines and refrigerators, were eventually derived from the submicroscopic atomic theory of matter.

New Age spiritualists and Christian apologists have appropriated quantum mechanics to claim a more holistic picture of nature. However, quantum mechanics and, as mentioned, the standard model of particles and forces, are fully reductionist. The standard model has agreed with all the data gathered at particle accelerators since the 1970s and is only now being seriously tested at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva. Discoveries at the LHC are unlikely to change the general reductionist scheme.

In short, reductionism in physics remains consistent with all the data. It isn't defeated just by the fact that it can't derive everything that happens. It still works. Holism has no evidentiary support. It doesn't work. Holism is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of those who have the hubris to think that they are an important part of some cosmic plan.

 
 
 
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01:49 AM on 03/11/2011
I note physicists, philosophers and new agers commenting.

New Age: wonderful belief and practices for some to attain congruence and spirituality. I agree with Stenger, the appropriation of the Quantum term is spurious - create a new age term because it appears that there is cashing in on scientific cache unwarranted.

I ask the philosophers about Cybernetics as a study of systems.

My knowledge of Cybernetics is cursory, but discontinuous systems, be they holistic or quantum, I gather, exist. So holism is a little holey it seems. I appreciated the comment saying that scientific observation requires but one more electron.

The commenter who mentioned the reading list of Aristotle, Spinoza, Heidegger, Rorty etc for scientists, great! I like the idea proposed by Manuel Delanda in a graduate seminar on the works of Deleuze & Guattari, suggesting an Ockham's Razor be applied to the Aristotelian division of Specific and General I'd like to know what a scientist could make of this considering this conceptual division lasts up to at least the works of Newton and of course, Darwin.

Science works, sociologically as well. Incredibly complex medium sized carbon based forms are interacting erratically in various ecological contexts. Naming hubris in "believers"? This widebrush label and naming is hubris itself. I charge you with poor social ethical conduct and discursive enlightened absolutism. How do you plea before I bring down the fuzzy gavel?

I trust Quantum and its nooks and crannies can put a sock on big TOE statements.
10:18 AM on 02/15/2011
One way or another given my profession as computer scientist i ended up learning a lot about systems theory, chaos theory, from philosophical point of view, passing to mathematics thow practical real life aplications, like early breast cancer detection for a nation scale proyect using HPC, artificial vision, neural networks and goodness we throw al we have there. Along the way with that an AI i learned a few things about medicine and neurophysiology. That has been something like 10 years in that, im in my infancy of research.

It boggles me how people without real knowlegde, that have not sweated a little bit doing research, take a book of quantum holism or whatever, half digest it, and suddenly they become experts. Things i would not dare to say to my peers are taked from granted, the most outrageous, contrafactual and nonsensical things have the solemn "truth" behind.

I wish i could invite them to my workplace and say to them "Look, thats a database with 2 or 3 million mammograms, statistics say 1 in 10 of the womans in that database are gonna suffer breast cancer, some of them are gonna live normally throw it, some of them are gonna lost their breast and some of them are gonna die. Apply the grand "truth" you are telling me the whole time, save them".
07:44 AM on 02/13/2011
Made a simple rule years ago: anyone writing about scientific subjects who "hasn't done the math" is a poseur, and their writings belong in the garage can.

This is especially true of quantum mechanics, a scientific discipline whose bewildering equations yield lovely probability distribution functions that Nature then obligingly follows with slavish 10 digit fidelity. Sadly, quantum mechanics' track record for providing a gut level intuitive grasp of subatomic physics has been.... a bit spotty, Spotty enough, in fact, to make it quite certain that New Age gurus spouting math free platitudes on the subject are pretty much certain to be operating WAY far away from the peak of the probability distribution function bell curve!
09:24 AM on 02/13/2011
GR, I'd fan you again -- spot on. QM has become a cover for all kinds of woo.

On the other hand, some rather woo-ish types did help rejuvenate interest in QM back in the 70s. David Kaiser tells this story in the recently-published "How the Hippies Saved Physics". I haven't read the book, but I have seen him speak on the subject, and it was both fascinating and at some points very funny. By reviving about some neglected corners of QM - the Einstein/Podolsky/Rosen paradox for one thing - they helped usher in a new era of progress in quantum information theory.
03:14 AM on 02/12/2011
"Holism has no evidentiary support. It doesn't work"

And a good thing too.
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behavingbadly
reality doesn't care what you believe
08:45 AM on 02/15/2011
Isms as a whole, don't work.
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quorthon
Big government IS the answer!
05:08 PM on 02/11/2011
As an unrepentant holist, holism does not necessarily entail spiritualitism--it is just the position wherein the being of a whole contains a property distinct from its constituent parts. The problem with reductionism is that its proponents have difficulty integrating their own position into that world-picture. In other words, science is a practice, and reductionism 'works' for that practice, but it says nothing about the process of discovery local to that practice, and obscures the God's-eye-view assumed by the researcher. The lesson to be learned is that reductionism is just another perspective on a convoluted reality, interchangeable with holism--they just 'do' different things. *Sigh* I just wish more scientists would read more Heidegger...and James, and Rorty, and Aristotle, and Spinoza, and Camus, and Schopenhauer, and...
12:48 AM on 02/12/2011
I think you're getting at what scientists would call 'emergent phenomena'. The amazing thing is that simple rules at the micro level can give rise to complicated behavior at the macro level, which you'd never anticipate, BUT which nonetheless are consistent with, and in some sense explained by, the micro-level simplicity. What Stenger is objecting to is the idea that there absolutely must be some kind of woo-ish thing going on between the two levels, when there's no evidence to think there is.
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quorthon
Big government IS the answer!
09:49 PM on 02/14/2011
When you get down past particles, things aren't so simple. I don't see micro-and macro levels as much as two ontologically distinct regions, as they are two perspectives deployed within different language-games (ethico-practical matrices). Sorry, reductionist arguments are just as unconvincing to this anti-realist as are religiously orthodox ones.
04:37 PM on 02/11/2011
There is a this view which is neither reductionist nor spiritualist/holist. Levels of complexity from sub-atomic - atomic - molecular - organic - biological - sentient systems indicate that causal chains at a lower level cannot fully account for a system at a higher level. Thus causal reductionist models fail.

Spooky new age theories tend to push systems models into the background. Our world prefers the dichotomous clash between the atheistic reductionist and the mystical-holistic.

Both the holistic and the reductionist are junk. The Cosmos consists of layered systems with different levels of complexity.

Out of the flux of chaos emerged linear causal systems in the physical domain. From the physical emerged feedback systems with the biological and then from the biological, open systems with the sentient.

Social behavior of millions of people cannot be accounted for in the movement of sub-atomic particles or atoms or molecules or biological organisms. Sentience transcends physical causality while remaining embedded in it and constrained by it.

We are sentient beings, creators of open systems we call societies. That is mystery enough.
12:55 AM on 02/12/2011
"Social behavior of millions of people cannot be accounted for in the movement of sub-atomic particles or atoms or molecules or biological organisms." I agree that you'd have to be crazy to try to break, say, the events in Egypt down to sub-atomic phenomena, but I don't think it follows that "Sentience transcends physical causality". It could, logically, but there's a major streak of wishful thinking in your assertion that it somehow must "transcend physical causality".

What is it that makes people diss the physical so much? There's a weird current in Western thought (maybe eastern too, I dunno) in which people assume that there must be some non-material thing called mind, or God, or whatever, that does all this stuff. Material is capable of amazing things, and I think everything we hold dear are emergent phenomena of the physical world. What's wrong with that?
06:44 AM on 02/12/2011
The sub-atomic particles, the atoms, the molecules which make up a big red truck cannot in themselves be used to constitute an explanation of what the truck is or how it works. The explanation requires an account of systems at a higher level of order manifest in the truck, including many complex sub-systems. In addition there is required an account of human society that created the truck the nature of human transport systems and the kind of stuff we move around.

You don't need god or mysticism to conclude that any alien finding a big red truck would not be able by examining it at the atomic level not be able to say anything meaningful about the whole. That is because the truck is a system of a higher order than the molecular. It is a physical organisation of the sentient made manifest in the physical.

Therefore your second paragraph misses the point about emergence and reductionism. The big red truck cannot be explained in a model which can be translated down to the atomic level. And, the physical level has been transcended by the biological and the sentient, which though nested within and subject to the physical, do things differently.
03:29 AM on 02/15/2011
"There is a this view which is neither reductioni­st nor spirituali­st/holist. Levels of complexity from sub-atomic - atomic - molecular - organic - biological - sentient systems indicate that causal chains at a lower level cannot fully account for a system at a higher level. Thus causal reductioni­st models fail."

Where is your evidence?
05:21 AM on 02/15/2011
How can a reductionist account for the shape of a glove?
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
03:01 PM on 02/10/2011
"But the fact that we cannot derive everything from particle physics does not mean that the universe still isn't just a collection of particles."

But these "particles" are not particles and your insistence of using the term gives the impression that we are back in the 17th century. These particles "take all possible paths". And ISOLATED particle is 'a drastically non-local, superimposed, interconnected series of probability amplitudes'. This is not your grandpa's "particles", Newton's particles. Not to mention that these "Particles" are non-counterfactual, context-dependent, and do not obey "local realism", and are somehow connected to the mode of observation, so that Neils Bohr said that the word "phenomenon" should be taken to mean BOTH the object under study AND the mode of observation. Stop calling them "Particles", as David Bohm suggested - they are no such thing as that word implies.
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Cichawoda
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05:40 PM on 02/10/2011
They are quanta and you have to be careful and not make the common nowadays among "holistic" thinkers, anthropomorphic conclusion that observation means a consciousness observer. In physics, in the QM context — observations means interaction.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
05:58 PM on 02/10/2011
The fact that we are talking of quanta and not classical "particles" means that the discontinuous change that quanta represent makes any mechanical theory impossible. QM is the end of the philosophy of mechanism, which is synonymous with materialism, both of which lead to the erroneous conclusion that determinism is ultimately true.

So, 'quanta' by existing as such rather than finding "particles", means that our hopes of finding a purely material reality is shattered. One therefore cannot reduce mind to matter, the mystery is much deeper than this wishful thinking that the author presents.

In this context, measurement, observation, interaction, mind take on a much more mysterious quality. This is why I find the assertion that particle physics is totally reductionist to be way over reaching.
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Cichawoda
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02:59 PM on 02/10/2011
The holistic "Whole" that the religious and faux-spiri­tual so desperately cling to is an emergent quality of all the parts interactin­g. The "Whole" is completely dependent on the parts and changes at the parts will. Although some emergent constructs have some influence on some of the parts the "Whole" in it's entirety is incapable of any action, motivation or influence.

Don't get me wrong, I find the contemplat­ion of the "Whole" a very soothing, intellectu­ally challengin­g and amazingly entertaining,­ personal, spiritual experience that can be accomplish­ed by working with that wonderful emergent phenomenon we call the mind. By the way, the mind, an emergent phenomenon of the electro-chemical interactions in our brain, is a great place for finding other emergent phenomenon like meaning and purpose.
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sandalwood
songs of the shamans...
03:03 PM on 02/10/2011
"By the way, the mind, an emergent phenomenon of the electro-ch emical interactio ns in our brain"

That's a belief, not something proven.
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Uncle Bob
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04:58 PM on 02/11/2011
it is not a "belief", it is easily demonstrated. Damage the brain and the mind becomes damaged or broken.

What is a belief is, if you damage a mind, there is a magic-version of it that is invisible and goes to an invisible magic place. That has definitely never been demonstrated
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Cichawoda
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11:18 PM on 02/11/2011
The brain is to the mind what legs are to walking.
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quorthon
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06:26 PM on 02/11/2011
Wrong. "Parts" are semantic constructions that imply the whole, and vice versa. They have no ontological independence.
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David4FreePress
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01:41 PM on 02/10/2011
I think that we just don't know everything, and shouldn't just dismiss things. Both holism and reduction are just products of the human mind, and thus equally suspect.
Reductionism admits the existence of energy, but we don't know everything about energy. To say that energy has any intelligence behind it sounds like a stretch, but we don't know everything that energy can do.
I prefer not to confuse religion with energy. Even though they could be related, energy also exists outside of religion. People with religious beliefs should be encouraged to learn and grow just like reductionists.
So until we learn more, we need to respect both sides, because respect is part of the energy of life.
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quorthon
Big government IS the answer!
05:09 PM on 02/11/2011
Exactly! You stated our situation much more lucidly than I ever could.
01:02 AM on 02/12/2011
I think you may be using 'energy' as a placeholder for some other concept. Do you mean energy in kg m^2 / s^2 ? If you don't know why energy is kilogram meters-squared per second-squared, perhaps you should find another term to describe what you mean, because you don't understand what it actually is.
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David4FreePress
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09:31 AM on 02/12/2011
I'm talking about the subtle energy of energy healing and the energy of matter that cannot be appreciated yet. Religion uses subtle energy in their practices and tries to ascribe it to an intelligent being. Modern science doesn't know everything about energy yet. The energy from energy healers can be sensed at certain frequencies, but it is not understood. There is too much unknown to draw useful conclusions.
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Cichawoda
Games can be played to win or to continue playing.
12:37 PM on 02/10/2011
The holistic "Whole" that the religious and faux-spiritual so desperately cling to is an emergent quality of all the parts interacting. The "Whole" is completely dependent on the parts and changes at the parts will. Although some emergent constructs and have some influence on some of the parts the "Whole" in it's entirety is incapable of any action or influence.
Don't get me wrong, I find the contemplation of the "Whole" very soothing, intellectually challenging and amazingly entertaining personal, spiritual experience that can be accomplished by that wonderful emergent phenomenon we call the mind. By the way, the mind is a great place for finding other emergent phenomenon like meaning and purpose.
10:11 AM on 02/10/2011
I don't think QM is fully reductionist, as it's mathematically incompatible with General Relativity, a theory accepted by every scientist.
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Cichawoda
Games can be played to win or to continue playing.
12:10 PM on 02/10/2011
There are many mathematical models that combine QM and Relativity but finding the one that is true is an issue because of the difficulty of conducting experiments at such high energy levels.
12:50 AM on 02/11/2011
I agree totally, but if you've got a theory that combines QM and GR, then that theory can be called a reductionist theory. But then by definition neither QM nor GR are reductionist, as they have been reduced to that theory.
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Uncle Bob
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12:19 PM on 02/10/2011
why does some conflict between QM and GR suggest they aren't both reductionist? That doesn't follow at all.
12:46 AM on 02/11/2011
It follows because QM has not "reduced" the macro-events described by GR. There is not yet a theory of quantum gravity.
07:38 AM on 02/10/2011
"Everything is particles!?" How does that make any sense? You haven't been able to find the irreducible particle. Every time you develop a more subtle instrument you find more subtle particles, yet you go on believing there is such an irreducible thing, which is as faith-based an argument as we will find anywhere. So you are caught in the middle refusing to acknowledge even the products of your "evidence," one of which ought to be, at least, doubt about your methods. The materialist is the most irrational of all believers.

As to "holism," or the existence of the whole, the concept of "evidence" is irrational. Evidence implies something apart, and there can be nothing apart from a whole. What exists prior to your conceived particles is not broken up in the way experience is broken up by intellect and method -- not broken up, and therefore whole. Science is only partially and temporarily useful, as long as that level of intellect is functioning, but that serves ultimately only as conditioning and ignorance of the unbroken context of experience, in other words, the WHOLE.
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Cichawoda
Games can be played to win or to continue playing.
12:02 PM on 02/10/2011
Actually everything IS quanta. Planck units derived from Planck's constant put an end to finding "more subtle particles". We've been done with that one since the 1920s. If you are wondering if our knowledge of quanta is reliable — without it your flat screen tv wouldn't be possible.
"The materialis­t is the most irrational of all believers." — maybe you will be able to prove it some day but for now they seem to be the only ones to be producing tangible results. The pie in the sky, holistic, "whole" approach has produced nada unless you count the irrational cravings for some easy silver bullet that will magically give us meaning, understanding, purpose and free beer as a worthwhile result.
01:56 PM on 02/10/2011
OK, maybe not MOST irrational, but irrational nonetheless. Where are you going to go when you want to be free from the tyranny of "worthwhile results?" The arguments you mention are what I call "trying to validate your own parking." In other words, you use one plane of phenomena to prove its own existence, like saying "My hand proves the material existence of this table." They both belong to the same class of phenomena, so this is only self-reference and not proof. The instruments belong to the same plane as the phenomena they observe. Self-reference. This has no validity outside its limited parameters.

Phenomena, so-called material or so-called spiritual, are all like this. We could also call it "experience." It's all temporary and changeable. The upshot is, human beings eventually get tired of it because the fundamental nature of experience is always thus, no matter what science achieves. And tiring of all this play, we wisely wonder if there is any freedom from it. There is only freedom in realizing, reverting to, surrendering into the holistic context, which we can also call irrefutable truth.
01:08 AM on 02/12/2011
Small clarification, Cichawoda -- the existence of Planck's constant doesn't stop particle physics from finding new things. Quarks didn't come along 'til the 60s and weren't really proven until somewhat later than that (the top wasn't found til the 90s I believe). Neutrinos oscillate for reasons no one understands. The dark matter remains unidentified (but not entirely mysterious).

I'm entirely in agreement with the thrust of your argument, though.
09:55 PM on 02/09/2011
The thought that the universe is possibly "just a collection of particles" is disappointment disguised as intellectuality. It's the thought that nothing has any meaning, that nothing we do matters. That's how it seems to me.
You might be able to explain molecules, particles, atoms; you might even have a working theory of gravity or antimatter. Just because you can't see the connection doesn't mean there isn't one either.
We are emotional beings, and thank god, whether it 'exists' or not. It might be hubris to believe the world contains magic and synchronicities, it might even be folly, but it's a lot more fun. Can you explain love scientifically? And if you did, would that change your experience of it? Can you write an algorithm to explain beauty? And how would that change your perception of it?
It doesn't all come down to bits and balls, there's more to a man than that.
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Uncle Bob
Darwin loves you.
10:43 PM on 02/09/2011
I don't even understand the phrase "nothing has any meaning". Humans don't seem to have any difficulty placing value on things.

This concept of non-human value is incoherent. The most generous thing I could say about it is, it offers an appeal to emotion. Definitely doesn't offer any rational explanation.
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Shawn de Montaigne
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12:10 AM on 02/10/2011
Well said.

Stenger's materialism reveals deep character flaws, not only in him but in all who believe in his brand of "reality," which, like any good fundamentalist, he upholds absolutely.

Materialism and its incestuous brother, fatalism, always devolve into solipsism and nihilism.

Let them have at their misery. And let them call their misery happiness.

I laugh at them. Wholly and holistically.
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MagicManDoneIt
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12:39 AM on 02/10/2011
It's been a while since I have since a comment that is fractally wrong. Thanks!
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JohnFromCensornati
The End is near
09:18 PM on 02/09/2011
Your Againstness regarding the Oneness and Sychronicity of the wuniverse is troubling. New experiments suggest that part of us exists outside of the physical world.

Quantum be upon you.
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07:58 PM on 02/09/2011
I don't know what this article is doing in the Religion section. Maybe HuffPo needs to add a "Reductionist" page for those who insist that holism has no implications for reductionists.

I agree that borrowing notions from reductionist natural sciences and claiming to find religious messages is nonsense. In which case the contention fits that holism does not work because it has no evidentiary support. But that would only be the case for "work" and "evidentiary" within a reductionist context.

The recent contention by cosmologists at Oxford that the cosmos is likely to be 250 times larger than what Hubble has showed us thus far and would then be flat and infinite is evidentiary. No one, so far as I am aware, has a 'working' program for implementation of such information. I venture that no one ever will have a working program that manages experimentally to deal with the cosmos at such a level.

So where do we go to get help with such an awareness? Why not try the myth makers. Sure, they only tell stories. That's a whole lot better than being told "Don't you dare imagine that you are part of a cosmic plan, because physics cannot explain the whole cosmos, only elementary sub-atomic particles banging against one another."