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Vivian Norris

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Sexism and the Workplace: Have We Come a Long Way (Baby)?

Posted: 10/24/09 02:44 PM ET

We need to stop listening to our mothers who tell us that if we want something from a man we have to be subtle enough to make them think they actually came up with the idea in the first place! We should take Norway as an example to follow and make sure all corporate boards are made up of at least 50% women. Then we should do the same for foundation boards and political representation. Why? Because the reality is that, even if you are a female executive at Goldman Sachs, you will never be part of the "boys' club" -- and guess what, it's still a boys' club.

Women are still discriminated against because of the fact that they are women. They are paid less than men, in many places there is still no maternal leave to protect us when we have children, in fact we can pretty much bet that our careers will be over if we leave to start a family.

I think back to the late 1980s and a job I had when I was twenty-two, working for a Texan, who seemed shocked when I asked him to sign an employee contract. Lucky for me, he signed it. But he also did the following: invited me to lunch in a very dark restaurant where they knew him and showed us to the far back corner table, cornered me in a warehouse where I was cataloging items in his antiques collection, and came up behind me while I was in the home office looking in the file cabinet and basically made me feel very uncomfortable.

I finally quit, and when I did (via a two page letter outlining why I was quitting) he told people he fired me!

Then there was an Italian boss I had who was five months behind paying me for work on a festival. When I pushed him to pay me he finally asked, "What? Don't you have a boyfriend?" I looked at him aghast. What does having or not having a boyfriend have to do with getting paid for a job well done? Women are also usually known for not negotiating for higher salaries; they don't even realize that they can ask.

In France, not so long ago, I read a poll in which women executive assistants were asked if they would go away with their married bosses for a weekend if it meant bettering their careers -- something like 60% replied in the affirmative! In other words, if you help the male peacocks feel powerful and like they are in control, you can gain a bit of power. But the reality is not many women in France are running big banks, or industries or business schools. But neither are they in America. Now imagine if you are a woman working in a country where you cannot even legally drive. How in the heck are we supposed to become empowered when we are treated like children?

The Mad Men series may be sexy, but what is the most wonderful thing about the show is that Don Draper keeps ending up in the arms of more liberated modern women: the beatnik girlfiend living downtown who is free enough to let him go, the woman who inherits her family's business, and eventually turns him down, and the power broking woman his own age whose mind and business sense is as sharp as his own -- and who ends up in a car wreck with him, while the wife (who is about to blow) is on the edge of heading towards some serious female liberation.

You can almost hear the call of the mid-life return to a college psychology degree a few seasons in the future, because the only way to stay married to these sexist men is to become their full-time therapist! In other words, Don Draper is a man whose time has come, and is almost over. He is the post-WWII American male anti-hero who has no place in the modern world. Yet all these cigar smoking execs who have brought us to the financial crisis have not figured that out yet. A real man empowers women. Insecure men need to feel like "the boss."

Women need to run their own companies, have decision making powers and have the same access to financial services, especially credit, as men. The fastest way to end up in poverty is for a woman to get divorced and be a single mother. Yet we have better payback rates for loans than men (look at the microcredit scores of up to 99 around the world in programs which loan primarily to women).

The Obama administration needs to take a look at putting more women in charge of the economy. They are slowly "getting it," but taking advice from the friends of Goldman Sachs (all men), is doing more harm than good. Those who are making the most sense right now are women: Sheila Baer at the FDIC, Elizabeth Warren, the Harvard law professor who serves as the chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel for the TARP program, and the first female recipient for the Nobel Prize in Economics, Elinor Ostrom, whose work focuses not on theories but real world economics and helping poor countries.

Obama's mother, Ann Dunham Soetoro, was a visionary in seeing how women, when given access to credit, could bring themselves out of poverty. It is too bad that she is not here now, at the right hand of Obama, advising him. But surely he knows how important women are to the world, he should, they raised him!

 

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We need to stop listening to our mothers who tell us that if we want something from a man we have to be subtle enough to make them think they actually came up with the idea in the first place! We sho...
We need to stop listening to our mothers who tell us that if we want something from a man we have to be subtle enough to make them think they actually came up with the idea in the first place! We sho...
 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ndem
03:14 PM on 11/05/2009
I want to add to this that I do work with a male dominated oil industry and as a woman co-owner I have been pushed out of voting rights, management and non-profit decisions, as well as not even being given keys to properties and access to financial info which I legally own. in order to get access to all of these I have had to hire lawyers etc. the oil industry is most definitely a good ole boys club...just ask women in saudi!!!!
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09:16 AM on 10/28/2009
Wow! I am amazed at all the bitter, selfish comments made by men about women taking time off to be with "their" children. Did it ever occur to any of you that those kids will one day be your doctor, firefighter, police officers, nurses, not to mention, tax payers? Are they supposed to raise themselves? If men did their share of child rearing, then they wouldn't have to whine about women paying attention to their children once and awhile. They'd be asking for paternal leave to pay attention to THEIR children. In case you didn't know this, WOMEN DON'T IMPREGNATE THEMSELVES!

If you hate women and children so much, Please, get a vasectomy now - don't wait! There are plenty of guys who respect their women coworkers and bosses, have enough self confidence that they don't have to view women as their enemy and, because they are comfortable with their own success, they don't have to be bitter over the success of others. I married one.
11:31 PM on 10/26/2009
I wonder how much of the sexism in the workplace thing is simply biologically hardwired, and therefore can not change. If this is so, then the attempts to change will at best simply fail, or worse devolve into some disastrous Utopian fantasy.
03:15 PM on 10/27/2009
There may be a biological component but then again there is Free Will. If we can resist the fight or flight response, which we all do every day, then we certainly can resist the pull of sexual attraction.
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ndem
04:01 PM on 10/26/2009
Am enjoying reading the comments here...and am realizing more and more that what would be unthinkable in some places, like in the workplace in Norway, is not only tolerated, but accepted in other countries as "the norm".

The personal stories are fascinating to me because so many women have experienced negative treatment even when they are highly qualified and with strong track records.

It has to do not only with respect, but also the fact that the sustainability which is needed for our collective human future, must include both men and women evolving.

Look on the Business page of the Huffington Post and there are two females authors represented out of about 25 posts. At times, people comment on why a Cinema Studies-focused PhD is writing about Business...Entertainment (software, film, video games, etc.) is one of our largest exports...globalized distribution systems, be it for digital media, oil, or big Pharma, are at the center of the world's economies, access to education, wars, and growth (or lack of it). I wonder what the world would look like if half the world's leaders were women, half the banks were run by women, half the software and media companies, half of Big Pharma, and half the oil companies. We'd probably already be much more "green", wealth would be more equitably distributed, access to education would be better, health care in place, and poverty reduced...I hope to see more women writing in the Business section.
09:13 PM on 10/26/2009
I'd like to see a constitutional amendment changing the U.S. Senate to one man and one woman from each state.

Then we'd see some changes in Washington.
12:26 PM on 10/27/2009
Could we get an amendment that included women getting women to work their share of hours and pay their share of taxes ?
10:07 AM on 10/26/2009
My story: Single mother, primary breadwinner, unemployed ex Wall Street technology executive. For twenty years in my profession, I fought for equal pay, only to face retaliation at work and lose my job. I took on my former employer, one of the world's largest banks (and TARP recipient) in an EPA lawsuit. Multiple court proceedings, $100K in legal fees, the case dragged on for 4 years while the bank paid almost $1M to a white shoe law firm to 'break me'. In the end, the judge ruled in my favor that I was paid over 35% less than my male co workers. Unable to afford trial, I settled out of court with 75% going to my self serving lawyers. It was an excruciating and time consuming legal process. The primary motivating factor was not wanting my daughter's generation to experience workplace discrimination. Sadly, as the saying goes, 'no good deed goes unpunished'; my career was ruined and now I can't support my family. I have lost so much. Talking and writing about equality in the workplace is easy but actually doing something about it is an exercise in futility. It takes real guts to sue a corporation. While I am politically active in lobbying Washington for the passage of the Fair Paycheck Act, the harsh reality is in this economy I do not see women moving forward because no one wants to lose their job over a 30-40% pay disparity. Trust me, it's just not worth the aggravation.
08:22 AM on 10/26/2009
It also has to do with trust. I've not met many men who feel they can trust a woman to back them up. Where as a guy will take his turn and support his mentor without usurping his power for a chance at the lime light. Its a pecking order issue. Men naturally acknowledge a pecking order within the ranks of maledom but women don't.

Women think its okay to be voracious and show stealing whenever up to bat. Men don't play that way. They played alot of team sports and will wait their turn to bat mean while giving support to the Coach.

Men are men. We like naked women. We are uncomfortable and feel anxious and silly around sexy women. We share this feeling amoung each other and bond over the experience growing up. So by the time we're men we all have a shared anxiety that never goes away entirely. Thats a core primal bond that women will never understand or relate too and most women dont want too. But thats whats needed sometimes to build trust.

So we men huddle out of sight of women and make "men" comments. To help remind us we're men and its ok to be a man with all the ugly brutish instincts. If you want to be part of the "old boys club" you might consider actually being one of the old boys. It's about trust and fair game play. Despite what you see.
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zombie fairy
10:09 AM on 10/26/2009
I'm sorry, this is 2009. Women play team sports just like men do (with coaches and everything!). Men backstab just as easily and as skillfully as any woman.

I am, however, assuming you're talking about older men, men who may be in their 50s and older. Most men I encounter who are younger than that can barely be considered men and make philandering Don Draper look like a diamond encrusted prize. He's flawed, but he goes about the manly business of supporting his family. And, best of all, he's not a baby about it. Most men today are such whiny babies.
03:29 PM on 10/26/2009
I've not encountered too much "whiney baby" men in my environment. What I do encounter and witness is LOTS of women from all ranks and departments using their motherhood and maternal demands to alter, conjole, manipulate, and down right fraud their way out of the office whenever they want. And nobody stops them. NOBODY. Everyone is fearful of the dreaded legal results and the ensuing public media. So by default, women get to do whatever it is they want to do and call it being a mother.

While men just keep being men and take their lumps for being part of the "old boys club".

I'm not certain either group has the high ground but at least the men are just being themselves whereby the "working" women who claim to be career invested immediately become "mothers" from heaven when they want and then expect to return to being an executive after a year of being mother of the year. The men of course got no break and have been in the trenches the whole time. The entire family is counting on them.
09:10 PM on 10/26/2009
Oh, for pete's sake.

If the only way you have to "bond" with other human beings is over your shared sexual identity, then you need some serious psychotherapy.

You can't bond over a shared passion for your career? A shared interest in movies? A shared passion for Chinese food? Or traveling? Or hiking?

You can't trust someone who has primary child-rearing duties in her family and a child at home with a fever of 104? (A guy at my office took off today because his daughter has a high fever -- I still trust him and don't feel he abused me or his role as single father by taking time off for his child.

I hope the next generation of women in the workforce won't have to deal with all the closed-minded, judgmental, arrogant and self-important jerks who have made my time in the workforce such a trail.

Hint to slow learners: Women are HUMAN BEINGS first and sexual distractions only to men who cannot control themselves. Think about something else -- like your work. Parents have to take care of their children -- this is good for the human race. In most families, the person who takes care of sick children is the mother. If you don't like this, then work on smashing the patriarchy. Then men will stay home with their sick children 50% of the time and you can stop being resentful about women taking too much time to care for their kids.

Sheesh.
10:37 AM on 10/27/2009
"........If the only way you have to "bond" with other human beings is over your shared sexual identity, then you need some serious psychotherapy.........."

I enjoyed this line.

It's not the only way but its the most powerful. The difference is, we weren't "hiking" at age 14. We were beginning to notice women and girls. It's a primal hormonal evolution. We're supposed to be that way. We grow to enjoy this manifestation although at first its a bit wild and unbridled. Takes young men time to control their inner cave man. We do so mainly because of parenting and the law then later for employment but make no mistake. Given the chance most men would willing to return the club and the cave.

We do bond over other interests but we will forever be in this club together that started years and years and years ago. Its important that men bond because the alternative is ugly.

We don't instinctively trust women, no. I'm not biased, I love women, I'm just being blatantly honest about men. We come to trust the women we love and marry. It takes us time, alot of time. But women in general ? No. Not with our careeers.

My instinct as a male is to be the bread winner. Just the way I'm programmed. Not entirely my fault. Why do you think men always end up marrying the secretary instead of the executive colleague.
08:13 AM on 10/26/2009
".......They are paid less than men, in many places there is still no maternal leave to protect us when we have children, in fact we can pretty much bet that our careers will be over if we leave to start a family.........."

Not entirely accurate. I work in the oil industry and have for almost 20 years. Once a male dominated bastion but now its very different. No manager or executive DARE suggest to a pregnant woman she can't have paid leave or maternal leave and retain her hired position. They are frightened to the point of paralysis.

Women in my working environment openly and galantly flaunt the ability to "disappear" daily for children, family and quite a number of "school" functions. While the men, should they exit the work place it had better be with the boss to a business function or his career is dead.

Managers discuss in closed doors and restaraunts how they dont want women in their Depart because of this whole "maternal" disappearing act. Also women tend to be more whiney about small things where a guy will just bully through.
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marianproletarian
03:46 PM on 10/26/2009
How is ".......They are paid less than men, in many places there is still no maternal leave to protect us when we have children, in fact we can pretty much bet that our careers will be over if we leave to start a family.........." not entirely accurate just because you can come up with one example of an organization with a good maternity leave policy? It is entirelly accurate, and you sound like a bitter member of the old boys club. I can assume by your comments that you do or did not have a working wife/mother of your children, because if you did you'd be thrilled that thier business was supportive or angry that it was not. You'd be very aware of the sexism that still exists in the workplace. Why don't you bully through equality instead of whining about it.
10:24 AM on 10/27/2009
Well, to clear up your assumptions. I'm not a member of the "Good Ol Boys Club". I fit the mold but I'm apparently too liberal for most of them so I keep a safe distance from the whispered moments in the passageway.

I resent the women who abuse the priviledge afforded them by hard working people. My mother worked hard and long to keep us clothed as a single mother and she never once got treated like todays women. She was treated like one of the guys in a male dominated work environment and she did so successfullly. She didnt like it but she did it.

If she were alive today she would scoff at the women who have such a privileged "work life balance". My observations about the work place are honest and without edit.

If you'd like to see more dialogue about these issues IN THE WORK force in meetings and open some air on the topic take a look at your comments to me. Now you know why men will avoid those meetings and rarely attend diversity. Close minded ? Your kettle seems a lil black.
03:10 AM on 10/26/2009
In 2000, I was hired at 40% less than the men I was hired in to lead.

The hiring manager lied to my face. He claimed that they gave bonuses for team performance and quick advancement to "make up" for the less than stellar starting wage.

Of course, the bonuses never came and near the end of my years at that company I found out how much more they had been paying the men I supervised, the men who billed fewer hours than I did, the men whose code I corrected.

40% more for junior programmers, just for being male.

It was pure, unadulterated sexism. Some men will LIE right in your face before they'll pay a woman a fair wage. That's just how they roll -- they get off on abusing their power over us.

i have saved enough now that I will stand up and walk away before I'll accept "women's wages". That's what it takes, women. You have to be ready to call their bluff and MEAN IT when you say you'll walk if they cannot meet your salary. If you don't mean it, they'll smell weakness. They don't give a rat's hind end if you retire in poverty, or can never afford to buy even a cheap condo in a bad part of town.

These men will smile and pretend to be courtly, but bottom line? They care NOTHING for you, so you'd darn well better start caring about yourself.
03:56 PM on 10/26/2009
Believe me....this works the other way too. I know many women that are paid significantly more than men....because they are women....gotta enforce those quota's !
08:58 PM on 10/26/2009
Sorry. I simply don't believe that women get paid more than men in the same job at ANY company in order to "enforce those quotas".

I've been in the workforce for thirty-seven years and I have never once met a woman who got paid more than men in the same position. Not once.

It's a nice story to tell yourself, however. If you believe that it "goes both ways" then you don't have to do anything about it.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:53 PM on 10/25/2009
Blind interviews might be the first step, blind working the second.

"Could you imagine "blind" interviews?

Before blind auditions became common in the 70s, just 10% of new hires at major U.S. orchestras were women. The theory was that women weren't very good musicians. But labor unions protested the hiring process and pushed for blind auditions where musicians would try out behind a curtain so appearance and gender were concealed.

In studying personnel from 11 major orchestras, Harvard economist Claudia Goldin and Princeton’s Cecelia Rouse found that 29% of females and 20% of males advanced to the final round in blind auditions. When auditions were not blind, only 19% of women advanced compared to 23% of men.

Even though sex discrimination is hard to measure, those stats speak volumes. Fortunately, since the 80s, about half the news hires at the New York Philharmonic, 40% at the San Francisco Symphony and more than a third in Boston and Chicago have been women.

It got us wondering, what would the workplace look like right now if all interviews were done "blind" -- where recruiters and hiring managers had no idea of your gender, age, or looks?"

http://blog.womenforhire.com/2009/03/could-you-imagine-blind-interv.html
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:30 PM on 10/25/2009
I see people responding to the sentence:

"Women are also usually known for not negotiating for higher salaries; they don't even realize that they can ask. "

with comments about asking for a raise. Forget the raise.

You have to ask for what you are worth when you are trying to get the job in the first place. You will never close the gap with a raise.

Know what people in your professional are paid and insist on the going rate at least. If you don't know, start with sites like Salary.com.

Sorry, if you haven't done that, then you will have to change employers to get the going rate. Be prepared to explains some benefit that your last job provided that made you accept it for less than the going rate, and how that no longer applies (to get experience...).
03:58 PM on 10/26/2009
Bullshit....I have been in the workforce for 25 years....and on average get promoted every 3 years. Promotions are generally ~10-15%....so it's BS it can't be made up. And if you don't know what salary to expect when applying for a job.....you deserve whatever u get.
04:55 PM on 10/26/2009
I agree that you can expect 10 to 15% at promotion time (as I have experienced that and more myself). However, if you are greater than 10 to 15% behind the males, promotions don't make up for it.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
03:54 PM on 10/29/2009
Getting raises through promotion is entirely different from earning appropriate compensation in the position for which you were hired.

It is unlikely that you will be able to close the earnings gap through raises alone, start with appropriate compensation.
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JR Jake
06:04 PM on 10/25/2009
So if it still a 'boys club', than form a 'girls club'. I mean really we have Boys Scouts and Girl Scouts, we have sports leagues designed for the different sexes. There has got be some delineation in or out of the workplace where people can go and be with their like kind. If you want to be a jerk, form a 'Jerks Club". If you want to be a jock, form a "Jocks' Club'. There is nothing at all wrong with people exchanging ideas, recipes, or whatever without having to feel you are being impinged upon. Guys don't want girls around sometimes, and vice versa.

Now if this is happening all to frequently in the work place and the matters of work are discussed and negotiated at the exclusion of someone; than the boss needs to know about it and rectify ASAP. In the office you are the team, out of the office you do your own thing. It is not magical and there is no special formula for people to include or exclude. Human behavior predicates that.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
09:47 PM on 10/25/2009
Yes, establish a female network for professional cooperation.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:18 PM on 10/25/2009
Men exclude women from opportunities all the time. They pass on the tip in the mens room, while play / watching football or gulf, etc.

The "team" thing is what you tell suckers.

There is nothing wrong with women passing along the very little info they get about opportunities exclusively to their female counterparts.
11:33 AM on 10/30/2009
What a hypocrite.
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ndem
04:53 PM on 10/25/2009
I think what is important is her point that in some countries (like Norway) it is being shown that is is important to try and set a standard which translates as equality in decision-making...the reality in the US and much of the world is simply that women are hardly represented on boards, as top execs, etc.

We should have come much further in the US by now and countries like Norway show us what is indeed possible.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
09:50 PM on 10/25/2009
In some countries like Germany, it is the law that labor has to be represented on the board of director. This often brings their first or only woman.

Catalyst has a study that concluded the best way to break the glass ceiling is from the top down. That companies that have women on the board of directors and in the C-suite empower women more.

Should not be news that a great way to get more power is to have a lot of it to start with!
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01:58 PM on 10/25/2009
Men are larger than women, usually, and perhaps that explains why they tend to be dominant in our species. In general, a woman has to be smarter and work harder to achieve the status that men do.

A story: I remember a dear couple where the woman was larger than the man, and when they argued, she would tend to sit on him, or pin him down, to make her point. It made him very upset, and after many years they broke up. I always wondered if her being larger than him contributed to his breaking up with her.
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zombie fairy
10:15 AM on 10/26/2009
That's horrible. Sitting on him and pinning him down during an argument shows a fundamental lack of respect, which I'm willing to guess was the true cause of their breakup. Hopefully, that man found another woman who treated him with some dignity.
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sherifffruitfly
12:18 AM on 10/25/2009
My programming lead/head architect. She's very good.

Has all the progress been made that's wanted and required? Of course not.

Has a lot of progress been made? Of course.
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sherifffruitfly
12:46 AM on 10/25/2009
Guess my comment would make more sense if I had included the "is a woman" part. Heh. Ooops.
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propitiousmoment
the journey is the destination....
07:29 PM on 10/24/2009
Being brave enough to ask for a raise might get you a raise, but it can also mean you end up without a job. It's happened to me, twice. I asked for a raise, backed it up with evidence of my qualifications and achievements in the job, and got approved - yay!! - only to be laid off within 3 months. To add insult to injury the first time it happened, my bimbo assistant (hired by my boss, not me) whom I had trained in certain aspects of my job, was moved into my position after I left, for less money of course. Go ahead and ask for a raise, and see what it gets you. But you'd better have money in the bank for while you're looking for a new job. At least you can cite the higher salary to your prospective new employers.
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propitiousmoment
the journey is the destination....
10:27 PM on 10/24/2009
p.s. meanwhile, the guys start out with higher pay, and get regular raises. It is still a man's world.
02:24 PM on 10/25/2009
It might have been because your request and documentation was so good, it was perceived as a discrimination complaint. Happens at IBM all the time.