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Vlad Chituc

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Richard Dawkins' Concession Not Quite Revelatory

Posted: 02/29/2012 6:15 pm

In a recent debate with Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, Richard Dawkins stirred some controversy by conceding that he wasn't completely certain that God doesn't exist.

The archbishop prodded Dawkins by suggesting that the Oxford evolutionary biologist believed he had "disproved God," a claim Dawkins then denied. Dawkins responded by noting he considered himself a "6.9 out of 7" on a scale from "I know God exists" to "I know God doesn't exist," a statement which prompted headlines such as "Richard Dawkins Reveals He is Agnostic" from the Christian Post. In fact, the general reporting of the event seems to give the impression that Dawkins's statement amounts to the world's foremost atheist losing his edge with growing age.

But Dawkins said nothing new in that debate a few nights ago. He has never claimed to be 100 percent certain that God did not exist, and if he did, surely those making much ado about his "concession" would be jumping down his throat for the hubris of that position, instead. Many do, already.

In "The God Delusion," Dawkins lays out his scale for nonbelief. A "six" refers to a de facto atheist who believes that the existence of God is "very improbable," living as though God does not exist. Someone who is a "seven" on Dawkins' scale holds that he "knows there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung 'knows' there is one."

A 6.9 on this scale doesn't meaningfully sound like an agnostic to me. Personally, I'd consider myself somewhat lower on the scale, perhaps a 6.5, but even that feels bizarre to label with "agnosticism."

If only a shred of doubt in one's conviction is necessary to be termed an agnostic, how many Christians would be forced to identify as an agnostic, too? Mother Teresa very famously struggled with doubt. But when this news came to light, there were no headlines announcing that Mother Teresa was really an agnostic all along. It's hard not to feel as if there is some double-standard at play.

This isn't the only instance where Dawkins has been receiving an unfair storm of media attention. The Sunday Telegraph recently reported that Dawkins' ancestors hundreds of years ago owned slaves. The story treated the issue as if it were some grand controversy, but how many of Dawkins' accusers could better fare the Lord jealously "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation?" It may even be the case that First Lady Michelle Obama's ancestors may have owned slaves. Not that any of this excuses our ancestors, but if our nation was founded by a group of slave owners, then how outraged can we really be?

Prominent atheists such as Dawkins are understandably sources of controversy. But even though I don't quite see eye-to-eye with Dawkins on every issue, I can still recognize that he doesn't deserve to be a needless target for manufactured controversy. Whether you agree with his writings on religion or not, the work he has done as an evolutionary biologist and science educator deserves greater respect from the media than he's been shown.

 

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09:51 AM on 03/02/2012
I always say I am philosophically an agnostic and therefore an atheist for all practical purposes.
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DAE
11:24 PM on 03/01/2012
I do not believe in a personal god that intervenes in worldly affairs, either my own life or anyone else's. I am not an agnostic. I can honestly say I am a thoroughgoing atheist. Its not that I deny the remote possibility that there is a universal force or forces beyond my comprehension that set the universe in motion. Its rather that if there is such a force why call it God? Since it can't be proved or disproved it is basically an intellectual construct. As such it is irrelevant to me and the way I lead my life and view the world in which I live. So if this "first cause" or "supernatural agency" is not the same entity as appears in the Old and New Testaments or the Koran or any of the other "holy books" I could really care less about its existence or non-existence. Its a moot point. This indifference to the the concept of God has been termed apatheism a neologism combining the words apathy and theism. Maybe not the best way to express the idea but it does better explain the way many atheists feel about the whole question of God's existence, which is "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."
03:47 AM on 03/05/2012
That position strikes me as being smug, and a lot closer to either extreme on the question than you might initially recognize (although it lacks their integrity). A third form of closed mindedness, apathy is a sort of anti-innocence that argues that anyone still exploring the question is a fool.

Your own self consciousness (a.k.a. 'the way I lead my life and view the world in which I live') is an intellectual construct, too, but you don't recognize it as moot. When you gravitate all the way to nihilism, you will have settled into an integrated position that can rival the hardcore theists and antithesists.

Or maybe you really do care.
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DAE
09:04 AM on 03/05/2012
I care about all sorts of things. The existence or non-existence of god is not one of them. Its not being smug its being honest, God's existence or non-existence is a moot point to me.
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DAE
10:10 AM on 03/05/2012
To continue. I said I really don't like the derivation of the term from "apathy" as it has negative connotations. My disinterest in the question of God's existence is a philosophical position, I obviously enjoy discussing the issue. And why is it smug? The anthropopsychic Abrahamic god is no different than any other god humans have worshipped. Since disbelief in those other deities is a commonly accepted, non-controversial position why is dismissal of the god of the Bible and the Koran smug? Further. Why should an underlying unknowable creative force that brought forth the universe be considered a god? Why should it have anthropopsychic qualities, such as a sense of morality, or an ability to express or feel love? If this force can intervene in human affairs its no different than Zeus. So the question of God's existence becomes comical, as in a comic book. The God most people worship really is a comic book character. And the pantheistic, Deist god that spiritualists love, is a mere objectification of nature. So again, stating that the whole question of god's existence doesn't interest me is not being smug. Unless god is a vindictive Gnostic Demiurge (i.e. Yahweh/Allah as a bungling and incompetent fool that creates the world as a spiritual prison) who throws intransigent non-believers to his devils in Hell, then the concept has no bearing on my life or "after-life." I think you're afraid to admit that I'm correct.
01:35 PM on 03/01/2012
The issue of atheism or agnosticism in Dawkins is nit-picking by those who would like to think that he is a possible believer in God. Scientists are technically agnostic, even regarding scientific theory about which they have the strongest confidence of validity because new discoveries require that even the best held scientific theories be revised. That's how the process of human knowledge moves forward. Classical physics is highly precise and was state of the art for two centuries. But the advent of relativistic and quantum mechanical discoveries required a modification to classical physics, shattering the view that it was an eternal truth set in stone. Similarly, although we are highly confident about astronomy and evolution, but new discoveries every day are leading to refinements in our understanding of their details. But its a night and day distinction between a natural world and the hocus pocus of religion.
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DAE
05:13 PM on 03/05/2012
If the existence of God can be proven then there would be empirical evidence in support of it. God's existence would be naturalized and become a phenomenon to be studied scientifically. God would hence no longer be a supernatural force or being, just another something we don't quite understand, like dark energy. But, God is supposed to exist outside the realm of the natural, material world. Therefore to believe in God requires a leap of faith. By definition its existence cannot be proved or falsified. So either you believe in it or not. There are no two ways about it.
06:04 PM on 03/05/2012
I agree. For any suppostion (such as the existence of God) to be rationally considered, there must be evidence and reasons distinguish it from arbitrary and groundless suppositions. To suppose that something exists with no evidentiary connection to us in the natural and material world means that there is nothing to distinguish that supposition from any other arbitrary and groundless one. I agreement with DAE any supposition that is unproveable, unfalsifiable and requires a leap of faith is inherently irrational. If one of the standards required for morality is rationality, then no one refusing to accept arbitrary suppositions can be immoral, in contrast to the claim of many religionists.
05:58 AM on 03/01/2012
Dawkins is an agnostic plain and simple.

He is not the 50/50 type of agnostic but the sort who leans strongly to the atheistic side - the term is known as an agnostic atheist.
10:56 AM on 03/01/2012
Almost all atheists are agnostic atheists. Those that are scientists cannot be 100% atheists and still be scientists, for example. "Agnostic" as coined by Huxley was a position that said it was unknowable. It isn't a 50/50 position as percent of odds.
11:22 AM on 03/01/2012
But I don't, nor do I believe does Dawkins, believe that the answer is unknowable.

Unknown is not the same as unknowable.
11:40 AM on 03/01/2012
"Those that are scientists cannot be 100% atheists and still be scientists, for example"

To nitpick, every person who doesn't believe in God is 100% atheist. 100% *certainty* has nothing to do with "100% atheism" as atheism is a statement on their state of belief not their state of knowledge.

But yes, the vast majority of atheist are atheist agnostics, as is only reasonable considering the fact that "God Exists" is an inherently unfalsifiable hypothesis.
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Zriv123
12:54 AM on 03/02/2012
If you think the question: " Does god exist?" is irrelevant, then you are an ATHEIST.

This would include Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
07:24 AM on 03/02/2012
If you think the question is irrelevant you could still be an agnostic. For instance there are lots of people out there who state they are agnostic because the existence of a Deity is unknowable, so therefore it is irrelevant to ask the question since no-one may ever know.
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WoolyBumblebee
Creator of TruthAndOblivion.com
01:24 AM on 03/01/2012
I can safely say there is no God such as one ever written of by man. Is there A 'god' type thing out there? Who knows, but it sure as hell is not worth wasting time on. And if anyone wonders, I am atheist, and damned proud of it.
researcher
researcher
10:41 AM on 03/01/2012
about as proud as a christian I would bet.

pride is a double edge sword. One side arrogance and ignorance and the other side taking some pride in our search for perfection.

humble can be very enlightening but difficult to attain.

the ego loves proud and will resist humble.

if you want to believe there is no purpose and meaning to your life so be it.

if you want to belief you exist due to a cosmic accident so be it.

if you want to believe that materialistic science is not without error so be it.

but your first sentence is very revealing as you have come to know that the god the religious worship does not exist but they need such a god to worship. materialism thing.

we are all a work in process even a work in progress towards greater and greater awareness of reality and materialism science is one of those paths.

What would life be with choice?
10:58 AM on 03/01/2012
Much ado about nothing.
11:24 AM on 03/01/2012
Strawman much?
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11:50 PM on 02/29/2012
This article is correct, but it doesn't mention that HP itself joined the out-of-context joy ride without apologies. It would be nice to see some recognition of their false character assassination, other than a disconnected and buried post that will never see the light of day, outside of a few people looking for it.

Figure the odds.
researcher
researcher
11:29 PM on 02/29/2012
As far as Dawkins he wrote a whole book on The God Delusion and mentioned consciousness once; the very stuff of life. Intellectual aptitude is not intelligence contrary to what the world teaches.

You are still young try not to buy into any form of religion including materialistic science. Find out for yourself what Thoreau meant when he stated there is more religion in men's science than science in their religion. Those were profound words of understanding about the human condition.

Study and research all the great teachers and religions and evidence for the paranormal and the afterlife. Don’t eliminate anything to study that is being taught into these mysteries of life.
Be very alert as to how we can reject new data before any investigation as the paradigm effect is that powerful.

Once we identify with one aspect of a system of beliefs, it is pretty much over in our life for attaining new information and discoveries.

Religious teachings are full of dogma but some of it can also contain some profound wisdom about life. Every path is unique; try not to jump on a bandwagon too fast. There is much comfort to join the herd but comfort is of the ego, not the seeker of truths.

Expect much rejection because the status quo of the group will want you to be in one camp or another.
10:53 PM on 02/29/2012
I don't really think he needs much of a defense... the man can take care of himself.

:-)
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Zriv123
12:57 AM on 03/02/2012
We have to defend Dawkins, because most people attacking him are not intelligent enough to understand him. We've got to dumb his brilliance down so they can digest it. Small bites.
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f0rTyLeGz
Everything is falling.
10:35 PM on 02/29/2012
It blows my mind that grown-ups, adults, actually believe in supernatural beings.

"Eternal life"... what an oxymoron that is.
09:51 PM on 02/29/2012
Nobody can be 100% sure until you take that last breath.
From all of the miracles in the bible it's hard not to believe that the whole thing is man's invention for what they hope for after the lights go out.
11:03 AM on 03/01/2012
You can't be sure then either because there is nothing that survives death and dust. There is no objective proof today of life after death or gods or spirits. That is a mighty long time for our species of 200,000 years. Perhaps the tens of thousands of gods in our history of conjuring became bored with us or we of them.
ParadoxHarbinger
shoulder high in crap, water wings are flat
01:41 PM on 03/01/2012
there are plenty of miracles in any fairy tale you care to name - what sets yours apart?
09:01 PM on 02/29/2012
I concur. In admitting his, however slight, doubt in the non existence of gods Professor Dawkins is simply being a true scientist. Unlike those who claim to know absolutely that gods exist he is simply saying that if he is presented with sufficient credible evidence then he would change his views. This is the exact opposite of course of those whose dogmatic views cloud all capacity for reason in this area.
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08:49 PM on 02/29/2012
I'm a 7.1.
7.0 plus 0.1 for knowing that believing in a god is on average bad for you and bad for society.
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Zriv123
12:59 AM on 03/02/2012
I think asking the question "does god exist" is the most irrelevant question anyone has ever asked. It doesn't deserve an answer. It doesn't deserve a second thought.
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01:17 PM on 03/02/2012
Actually I think it's very relevant since it has such a large (mostly negative) effect on society.
However, evolutionary psychology has a good answer. The whole "god" meme evolved because it had beneficial effects for cohesion in early tribes. So it's in the same class as racism - that also evolved because it was beneficial in early societies ("us" vs "them") but has the opposite effect today.