Proposition 8 and Race
I can understand why white gay people are angry. I certainly am. But, let's take a step back and look at this dispassionately. I believe our failure with the African American vote (70% voted in favor of Prop. 8) has more to do with education levels than race. In general, people with lower levels of education -- of any race -- do not vote for gay rights. White people are twice as likely to graduate college as black people. This accounts for the difference by race on Prop. 8.
Think of it this way: 57 percent of white people with a college education voted No on Prop. 8. Yet, 58 percent of white people with no college voted yes on 8. In other words, uneducated urban black people vote very much like uneducated rural white people.
Uneducated people -- black, white and Hispanic -- often derive their power from physical strength. They perceive being gay as weak and antithetical to real manhood. By voicing support for gay rights, they lose status and often fear rivals may perceive them as gay. The easiest way to gain status is dissing faggots. I see this attitude all the time in Brooklyn -- in the gym and on the basketball court, where I often play. (Not the best sample, I realize this)
Meanwhile, educated people of all races gain power by outsmarting opponents -- not beating them up. This creates a safe space to support gay rights and not lose social status. (Unfortunately, the fact that the conservative black church is a central organizing point for politics makes even educated blacks less likely to vote for gay rights. But, this is secondary to education levels.)
It is understandable that black support for anti-gay efforts drives white gay people nuts. It is difficult to understand how people affected by bigotry can promote bigotry - as if they are selfish people who learned all the wrong lessons from the civil rights movement. But, remember, uneducated people -- of all races -- are not students of history. They react to the environment around them, which often rewards homophobia.
(Compounding this perception problem is that the vast majority of overt homophobia experienced by urban gays comes from black people. In places like New York City, you almost never hear a white person say "faggot." But, we hear this from uneducated blacks too often. This makes the problem seem worse than it is. We often forget that we moved to places like New York to escape uneducated whites in rural areas that were just as openly homophobic. In other words -- it is about education -- not race.)
A few of possible solutions to ponder:
1) We must air public service announcements with people like former basketball star Charles Barkley -- who is a tough guy and supporter of same-sex marriage. We must show masculine African American figures who are supportive, every chance we get. Obama is also a huge help, because he is inclusive and is the ultimate example of power though academic success. His leadership will improve our fate.
2) We must work to raise the education levels of all Americans -- which will lead to less homophobia of all races. The fact that we have so many African Americans in prison -- and not graduating is a legacy of racism and a national disgrace. This must change.
3) We must also have substantive discussion with the African American community -- as many of you have suggested. But, until we raise education levels, there is only so much we can do to win support of urban blacks -- or rural whites. In other words, scholarships for urban blacks and rural whites are as effective as spending money on education specifically about gay rights. Keep this in mind.
4) While I recognize that there are many supportive pro-gay black churches, as long as this is the central organizing place for black politics, this is not helpful for gay rights. Alternative organizing places for aspiring black leaders must be strengthened.
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Dear NoHate08,
Sorry to hear that you interpreted this article as negative. Please re-read it in the same way that I, a white gay man, listened to Rev. Wright's sermons. Look beyond the anger of some to the message of pain underneath. Please transcend the hate and fear of others to embrace all the things that are true about what they are trying to say...but may be unable to articulate in an appropriate manner.
I am an African American, of christian beleifs. I am not a supporter of gay marriage, but not exactly hardlined against it. I do not compare it to the same rights blacks fought for, but believe your fight is worthy. The church I worship says not to judge and you won't be judged. I am however very disappointed that in your fight for rights, you want to turn around and bash blacks. Blacks only made up 13% voters period! The news is reporting that gays at the marches are using racial slurs and intimidating blacks. Newsfalsh, many people were turned of in the election for negative displays.I found the marches lately rather inspirational. I thought many people, like myself, would join your plight. However, with articles like this, and the racial slurs, I am very turned off by the "going negative" mentality. Educated or not.
Maybe an updated article reflecting who the "Real" players that were responsible for the defeat of Prop 8. It damn sure wasn't the Black community spending millions of dollars on advertisement, is the Gay community scared to go after the Mormon Church?
A poll that hasn't gotten too much attention about Barrack Obama voters being responsible for Prop 8 failure:
New/First time voters, who voted 62 - 38 against Prop 8. So it wasn't so much of a racial thing as CNN & your article suggest, but a generational thing. Because those new/first time voters span the spectrum of all likely voters, cutting across race, religion, age & gender.
I'll make 3 points, in 3 posts.
1.) Never trust just one poll
I don't trust that 70% number. The last Field Poll on Prop 8, done just 5 days before the election: http://www
Key points from that:
"state Attorney General Jerry Brown changed Prop. 8’s official ballot title to the “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry” initiative. When voters were read this amended description in September, the No-side lead grew to seventeen points (55% No vs. 38% Yes).
Now, after more than a month of intensive campaigning on both sides, the initiative trails by just five points, 49% No vs. 44% Yes, with 7% undecided. Yes-side support has increased six points, and those opposed declining six points over the past month."
Voters were appalled by the "eliminates rights" language. But with the campaigning, their opinions changed.
Also,
"(.06) African-American* 49% YES, 43% NO, 8% undecided
(.08) Asian/other* 41% YES, 51% NO, 8% undecided"
Obviously this poll ended up as not predictive of the overall Yes vote, which is why you should NEVER accept polls as FACT. It's not a hard science. For elections, we get MORE THAN ONE POLL, to average. The media is quoting just one CNN poll with that 70% number, and you can find a breakdown of the fishiness of that poll here: http://www
Ok, only two posts needed:
2.) Education alone won't fix the problem.
http://www
This is actual data from the vote totals. Orange county, one of California's wealthiest and most educated counties, voted for Prop 8 by a wide margin. It is mostly white, latino, and Asian. Ventura county: 6th wealthiest county, educated, and 70% white, also supported Prop 8.
3.) Many blacks have been convinced that "marriage" isn't a civil right.
Few people in the black community complain about California’s domestic partnership laws, and many black activists fought for them. The problem is, as it is in many demographics, that many people just see “marriage” as something created, owned, and controlled by the rules of the church, not a "civil right". If we focus our efforts like a laser on that single false belief, we will win. It’s that simple.
As stated earlier, when the Field pollsters actually read the language of the Prop 8 bill to people, opposition to it skyrocketed. But Yes on 8 people dug in and made a deceptive, but convincing argument, based on the old conservative tools of fear and doubt. Besides the late Samuel L. Jackson ad, the No on 8 commercials were reactive, and ineffective at making the point of "legal rights".
Al Sharpton, the famous black religious activist, SUPPORTS gay marriage. He even preaches against anti-gay black churches. http://www
Actually, I will make a third post, which is maybe the most enlightening.
When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed in my home state of Michigan in 2004, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (which holds Detroit, which is 82-90% black) voted 54.8% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58.6%.
Metropolitan Detroit is overwhelmingly black, and certainly not a shining example of higher education. Blacks are 42-45% of the whole county. And yet, this single, midwestern county with a black population that's 40-45% of the black population of the entire STATE of California, was not much different than the rest of the state in the vote for gay rights. In fact, on average, it was slightly more in FAVOR of gay marriage.
http://mib
Black support for Prop 8 had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH EDUCATION. Please repeat that to yourself over and over again. Condescending attitudes will not win you any additional support. Black people hold very traditional, conservative values. Assuming otherwise simply because Blacks tend to vote Democrat is a fatal flaw in anyone's thinking. Blacks vote Democratic mainly because starting with the civil rights movement and beyond, the Democratic party has been more supportive and inclusive. Many Black people, myself included, do not equate racial equality with gay rights. Not that one struggle is more important than the other - just different. Homosexuality must be addressed in the Black community, but not for the sake of Gay marriage. We are dealing with alarming rates of HIV and other STDs, the DL phenomenon, and the Black church that needs to be more open and accepting. In the end for the all the issues in the Black community, you cannot blame Blacks for the passage of Prop 8. Black people make up just 6.2% of California's population - they are not 6.2% of the electorate. Blacks do not hold the fate of California's homosexuals in their hands - never had, never will. The fight for Gay rights mush go on but the blame game has to stop.
Wayne, you lost me from the beginning--but I know you're trying to come from a good place. I hung in there for a few valid points (machismo, yes, definitely a major issue--but not exclusive to blacks. Come on, bro), but to say the pro-8 vote is some huge symptom of deficient education? And to say that blacks in California are like rural whites (in Appalachia maybe?)? How is anybody that voted for 8 supposed to feel compassion for your cause when you dismiss their position--no matter how personal and complex--as stupid.
And as for your basketball example, I have grown up with just as many white, tough (and not so) homophobes as I have black. Go talk about gay marriage to the UCLA football team or the LA Kings hockey team. Or talk to the cast of the Sopranos. Or go to a USC frat party. Watch the beer commercials starring whites trying to humorously shake off any "gayness" for a laugh. Well meaning and well educated people are plenty homophobic, sir.
The black vote--and I will use that unfortunate monolithic term for this argument only--is made up of a number of rationale: religion, upbringing, machismo, sexism, unfamiliarity, class, education, and much more. To reduce this to just say they're all just a bunch of uneducated blacks marches this whole argument backwards.
Please read:
http://www
I agree that education is part of the problem but not the whole problem. There are many Bible colleges that subtly preach homophobia along with handing out accredited college degrees. This type of education just reinforces prejudice and their graduates are educated homophobes.
The homophobia in black churches is nothing new, it's been one of those dirty little secrets for decades. My sympathy to black gay men and women, you are true survivors. Yes there is homophobia in non-black churches, such as the Catholic, Mormon, Southern Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist etc. It's not always restricted to a single denomination, sometimes it's just rural vs. urban and poor vs. wealthy congregations.
But just like the little kid who is misbehaving, overlooking or excusing his bad behavior condones it. Homophobia has to be challenged and condemned and those who don't condemn it are part of the problem.
#I honestly don't understand why there has to be scapegoating on an issue so serious.i'
An African American was quoted in the L.A. Times as saying something to the effect that they don't equate gay rights with civil rights because "we were born black, while they (homosexuals) made a choice". This belief is not exclusive to the African American community, it is rampant among many of the "faithful". enforced by their religious leaders.
I have a few questions for my heterosexual brothers and sisters who believe that homosexuality is a choice: When exactly did you choose to be heterosexual? Were you struggling with attraction to both sexes? Why did you choose heterosexuality? Once you made the choice, did your homosexual feelings go away or is it a daily struggle? Why is it so hard for you to believe that I could no more choose to be straight than you could choose to be gay?
I can only speak from personal experience. I was not given a choice. I've been attracted to men since I can remember; long before I even knew what sex was.
I did not choose to be a homosexual. I did not choose to be teased and bullied by my classmates . I did not choose to break my mother's heart (now fully mended) when I came out. I did not choose to be treated as a second class citizen. I did not choose to be hated by people who don't even know me.
I also do not understand how civil rights struggles end with the African Americans. I realize the great struggles, they went through and still go through today. I witnessed it first hand. I understand that it is difficult to hide skin color. But if it were possible to change your skin color, would you? Would you do it just to "fit in". I knew at the age of 3 that i was gay. Not one beating, knife attack, bible waving zealot shouting slurs, and even a little dabbling with the opposite sex in my youth, has changed me to being straight. I think people need to understand that civil rights are civil rights, and it does not stop till we all have them equally, and respectfully.
That's I believe EVERYONE NO MATTER THEIR RACE IS WRONG IN THIS, so why pile on blacks..bt
Take the time to understand the way religion plays in this and stop looking at COLOR. Some of you sound racist. You think all black people are stupid and all think the same about everything but you think you are progressive. We are indiviual and all have our owe opinions.
It's like "we voted for Obama so how dare you stupid blacks not do what we want." so now it's ok to attack all blacks. Well f that, I'm not going to be scapegoated. Go back and make a better case with blacks. BTW telling them it's like the civil rights movement isn't going to work. You get more bees with honey and attacking my people isn't going to win them over.
I understand because I would love to marry my partner. I am shocked about what gay whites are saying about black people and some gay whites wonder why we have our own pride.
Clearthinker, I agree with you that we need to look at the FACT that it was 52% of the entire vote that was wrong. It is NOT about skin color, race, or religion, what the real problem we face is education. We gays, whether we be black, white, Asian, Hispanic, tall, short, or whatever. Need to first and foremost begin to come together as Gay people. We are at fault, all of us, We did not and do not properly educate our friends, neighbors, even our own Gay brothers and sisters on the need for respect of one another.
I am a 52 year old, white gay man who lives in deep south Georgia. NEVER have I been able to understand or condone the kind of behavior that would lead to belittling someone for there differences, no matter what that difference is. Bickering over details like a persons skin color was like, bickering over whether my Camero was faster because it was red instead of blue. All things being equal, both cars still got you down the same road. We as a people seem to love to point fingers at any and all things, BUT our own selves. I am fortunate I believe in having many friends of many different ethnic and even sexual differences. They make you both wiser but also richer for the friendships and shared experiences of life and love. Maybe we need to get that kind of message out to one another.
Yeah, the 6.2% of Cali's black residents all of whom did not vote of course, caused Prop 8 to fail. Now they are stupid folks of course and no blacks are gay, of course. No matter that more TOTAL whites and more TOTAL latinos 50% each of those groups of voters voted agaisnt it, it has now become the dumb blacks fault that prop 8 passed.
Always blame the blacks, it's so comforting.
For those in LA, big protest rally Saturday Nov.8 at 6pm in Sunset Junction. Info at www.afterp
I place more blame on religious leaders who use the pulpit to convince their flocks that treating homosexuals equally under the law somehow threatens religious freedoms, and even civilization as we know it.
I attended a candlelight vigil where several religious leaders of my community spoke out against Prop 8 and stand with the gay community in the fight to overturn it. I do not blame religion as a whole. Sadly, there are those few bad seeds with so much influence.
Religious beliefs are protected by the Constituti
I am a gay hispanic women and I am angry with anyone who supported prop 8. It is an issue of separation of church and state. But face it, the Black leaders, hispanic leaders and Asian leaders who called for Equality for All and supported prop 8 are Hypocrites and they need to be called on it.
Masking the issue behind a lack of education, although a contributing factor, does not hold water. Fundamental Fairness..
See Wayne Besen's Profile
Good spin. Lower education level does not mean. "Stupid." But, you may be too stupid to know the difference.
Thus are problem, Wayne. Stupid people are allowed to vote.
Illiteracy is rampant in the US, and I don't just mean thos who cannot read, but also those who cannot UNDERSTAND the words they are reading and cannot use LOGIC and PROCESS the information they receive in a mature way.
Then there's the religious right, which jettison rational thought and humanity for blind allegiance to what Daddy-God says.
The Religious RIGHT is WRONG; the Religious LEFT is RIGHT.
So 70% of the blacks who vote in Cali are stupid?
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