wowOwow Conversation: Why Isn't Anyone Screaming About Taxes?

A wowOwow conversation with Joan Juliet Buck, Lesley Stahl, Liz Smith and Whoopi Goldberg. This post appeared in its original form on wowOwow.com, and can be accessed here.

WHOOPI: I am outraged. I'm outraged. I looked at my cable bill. I looked at my phone bill. And there are taxes on there ... it goes anywhere from $10 to $15 a month that I'm paying for stuff I don't know. There are letters -- the LMNOPQ fund of the jacka-jacka ... and no one says, "The what!?" And when you think about it, it's every month that you're paying it. So it's ten bucks here or fifteen bucks here or twenty-five dollars there.

Then you're writing out -- they take the 50 percent of your income and it goes to God knows where. When I first started working I said, "OK. I don't mind paying out because I know it's going to go for some stuff I hate, and some stuff that I like." But I'm looking and I see my friends who haven't done as well as I have financially. You know, they've got kids, they've got house payments, they've got mortgages. They've got gas to put in their cars. Friends who are putting, you know, in a 500 gallon or 2500 gallon tank -- they're only taking 50 gallons of oil because they can't afford it! They can't afford it. I don't understand why --

LIZ: Well, it's pretty discouraging when Congress keeps doing these earmarks where they consign millions of dollars to stupid things like, you know, "We'll study the button," or "We'll study ladybugs," or something. Or they build these bridges to nowhere in Alaska. And then you do resent paying your taxes when that's happening.

WHOOPI: I don't mind paying them. I resent this idea that everything I do now is taxed. And I get no bang for my buck. I feel like I want to just dump tea in the river, because there's no representation. And if I'm bitching about this, I can't imagine what somebody who's just living, literally, paycheck to paycheck is going through. Because there's no government agency that says, "You know what? We're going to pay this much to the oil company so that everybody can get the oil."

LIZ: Well, I don't believe we're ever going to get rid of big taxes as long as America is in the industrial munitions manufacture business. And that's the business the government is in -- is constantly making these war machines and then they go obsolete and they junk billions of dollars worth of 'em. And they just go on and on. And I don't know. I know we have to protect ourselves, but --

WHOOPI: Here's what started it, just so you guys know.

JOAN: Yes, let's hear.

WHOOPI: I had a radio program, which did not work out. Very smartly, I was in a pay-or-play deal. So everybody said, "You know what? This isn't working. But, yes, we know we still have to pay you." They were supposed to give me my lump sum. Well it turns out that you can no longer be given a lump sum without 10 or 15 percent being taken out -- as a penalty ...

JOAN: As a penalty.

WHOOPI: ... for getting paid a lump sum.

LIZ: Well, that makes no sense.

WHOOPI: It makes no sense. And what you have to do is you have to then defer the other half of your money. So you can take some now and then you can't take it for another year.

LIZ: And then the company disappears and you never get it.

WHOOPI: Well, yeah. Or they go under. I said to the guy, "Who made this law? Did anybody put it on the books to discuss it?" No. This went into law about a year ago. If you're getting ready to get paid a lump sum, you have a 20 percent tax on it -- tax on top of the 50 percent they already took.

LESLEY: What always surprises me is when you see these people on Wall Street just cleaning up. Did you see the story the other day where these hedge fund owners -- in this crisis and this recession that we're in -- in this Wall Street debacle, are making 3.5 billion dollars? And they're the ones fighting taxes. They don't --

JOAN: And they're the ones that don't pay the taxes!

LESLEY: They're the ones that don't pay the taxes. And that's what always gets me going when I read the newspaper. I look at those kinds of stories about people who ... it's always the richest who fight the taxes the most.

LIZ: Well wasn't there something Bill Gates investigated proving that he paid like the normal percentage less --

LESLEY: Warren Buffett. It was Warren Buffett.

LIZ: Warren Buffett. You're right.

LESLEY: He paid ... his rate was less than his secretary's. And he said, "I'm willing to pay my taxes ..." Warren Buffett. "I'm willing to pay more."

JOAN: OK, this is also so interesting with what's going on in the election right now. There was a story in the New York Sun about Bloomberg saying it's not a good idea to threaten to tax the rich in New York City because they would leave. And that's the tax base. You can't touch the rich. You can't threaten to touch the rich. You can't tax them because they are power. So the way we're structured, you can't tax the people who have the money, who have the power, because they may get pissed off and go away. So you have to treat --

WHOOPI: Is he saying that you can't tax the rich because they're rich? Because that I understand. Why ... that's, to me, un-American. If you're paying 50 percent, somebody shouldn't be able to come to you and say, "Oh, and by the way, because you did everything you needed to do and you made a little more money, we're penalizing you and taking 15 more percent." Either say it's now a 70 percent tax, or don't be pissed because I made it. That's the thing. I don't mind paying it. But I don't want to --

LESLEY: But they often have a lower tax rate.

WHOOPI: I don't.

JOAN: They have a lower tax rate. Here we are. This is Bloomberg quoted in the New York Sun, speaking for the first time about the new tax proposal, said that the first rule of imposing taxes should be, "Don't try to raise the taxes on those who could pick up and move out tomorrow because you won't get even what they've been paying. I can't think of a group that is more portable, actually, than hedge fund managers, or some of those private equity firms. They could move to Connecticut overnight." So we've got to allow the richest among us to pay proportionately lower taxes ...

LIZ: To make them happy.

JOAN: So that they'll be happy and stick around with their SUVs and their dinner reservations.

WHOOPI: Are you saying they are paying proportionately less tax?

JOAN: Yes. They are paying --

LIZ: Well, you know, we've come a long way from WWII when Carole Lombard, one of the greatest stars, made a public declaration that she was pleased and proud to pay all of her taxes because she loved the United States. It's that the United States has changed enormously since then. Those were days when people made sacrifices because we were at war. And they worked hard and ... I don't know, it was fairer, I think. But maybe I'm nuts.

JOAN: It sounded to me always like it was fairer. It sounds like ... I mean, today the thing is we're at war, so therefore we don't make sacrifices.

LIZ: Well, we have been at war ever since then, really. You know, we produced a great armada in order to win that war. And the Pentagon has gone on gobbling up everybody's money ever since then.

JOAN: Where did this spirit of sacrifice go?

LIZ: Well, we never were really asked to sacrifice anything about the Iraq war. I mean, right after 9/11 President Bush's advice was that we should go out and spend more money and keep business going and keep everything status quo.

JOAN: Did you do that, Liz?

LIZ: You know, actually I did. I bought stocks right after 9/11 when the stock market was tanking, because I thought it was a patriotic thing to do. Now I think I was just a jerk.

JOAN: What did you do, Whoopi?

WHOOPI: What did I do after 9/11?

JOAN: Did you go out shopping?

WHOOPI: I packed. Came home.

JOAN: You were away from New York?

WHOOPI: The sacrifices that people are making, I think, have to do with their children and have to do with a lot of things. They're not the kinds of sacrifices that we remember.

LIZ: No. It's only these young men and women that are being killed and wounded so mortally and what we've done to our own domestic economy as a result of all of this.

WHOOPI: And I don't understand why no one is screaming. I mean, I know that this idea of tax ... I understand the taxes. I didn't know rich people paid less because I still pay 50 percent. And I'm paying 50 percent, you know, of ... not Oprah Winfrey money. You know, not Bill Gates money. But enough. And I've got five people ... 12 people to support.

JOAN: Whoopi, I think these people are paying, I don't know -- 15 percent, 10 percent? They aren't paying anywhere near what you're paying.

WHOOPI: But why isn't that the issue? Why isn't someone saying we all have to pay the 50 percent? If you make this much money, this is what you have to pay?

JOAN: I think that's what Obama and Hillary are trying to say. But they can't say it on television in case the rich people hear them and dispatch the Frank Sinatra dudes to kill them.

WHOOPI: Good Lord. Then they're just going to have to come kill me because I'm not going to, you know, I don't want to turn into a sneak.

LIZ: I don't think anybody really does. I want to pay my taxes. But I'd like everybody else to pay theirs.

WHOOPI: To pay theirs, too.

JOAN: I believe that paying one's taxes and burying one's dead are the two most profound acts one can commit. And that they bring all good things. But that means nothing good can happen for the rich. I'm disgusted that the rich don't pay taxes like the rest of us do. I'm disgusted when I meet interns, young people between 20 and 30, who are paying off college loans that are like $40,000, $50,000. Who are paying off 600 bucks interest-only, every month.

LIZ: I know. It's just outrageous. That's another outrageous thing. We don't want to invest anything in education, when higher education is the only thing that probably would save this country in the future -- for us to develop real scientists and engineers and creative people. And you've got to go to school to do that. And we make them pay through the nose so badly that they can't even get themselves established. I'm surprised any young people come to New York anymore, like they used to, to write plays and to dance and to act and to invent. There's no place for them to live. There's nothing anybody can afford.

WHOOPI: If we are bailing out the bank system, who has sent all of these people into this downward spiral by saying, "Listen, we got your back. You take this loan, you can live the American dream." And suddenly everybody said, "Oh, well this was just built on sand." But nobody is saying, "Why are you credit card companies sending these kids, at the end of high school, six and seven and eight credit cards?" Why is that legal?

LIZ: It's terrible. Well, you know, I think both Hillary and Obama have vowed to attack these credit card companies and make them straighten up and fly right. I hope so.

WHOOPI: Why isn't this being screamed about on the floors of the Senate and the Congress and the House? Why isn't this discouragement of people being able to live a dream - why isn't that being talked about? They're killing the country. They're killing the country.

JOAN: It is the credit card companies, absolutely. It is the banks that are making the money off the students by offering them these loans that balloon up. And it's the profit motive all along the line -- it's a complete lack of social conscience about what builds a society. And that vanished somewhere.

LIZ: Well, no. This is why people have responded to Barack Obama -- because he's talking about hope and ethics and all of that. And it's great. But I'm so afraid that neither he nor Hillary, if elected, can accomplish even a portion of their hopes and promises.

JOAN: I don't think they can do it.

LIZ: Idealistic. Ideas don't get done.

WHOOPI: Well, at this point in time, the truth of the matter is it doesn't matter who gets it; they are screwed for the first four years.

LIZ: That's right. You're exactly right. They're going to be so disappointing to their backers because they're inheriting the biggest shovel of trouble that's ever been heaped on anybody, except maybe after the Civil War.

WHOOPI: And that's the first thing that everybody has to sort of gear themselves to, is that it doesn't matter who gets in. It is such a big pile of -- as you said -- a big pile of dog doo that it's going to take four or eight years to just clean it up. So trying to get anything done new, through Congress or the Senate, is going to be difficult -- not because they're going to be voted against. But because there's so much other crap to take care of to keep the ship, not just afloat, but from really falling apart. We are as close to falling apart, in my lifetime, as I've ever seen.

LIZ: Oh, you're so right. This is a terrible moment for a great nation. It looks like it's going to hurdle down and imitate the Romans.

JOAN: Could this be why there is only one shaky candidate for the Republicans? Could this be why --

LIZ: Well they only need one.

JOAN: But could it be that nobody particularly wants to be the guy steering the Titanic?

LIZ: Oh, there were a lot of people trying to get their hand on the helm.

WHOOPI: If the Democrats win, it's the best thing that could happen to the Republicans because for the next 8 years they'll have something to bitch about. And they can say, you know, it's the Democrats --

LIZ: Well, there are people who say we should elect John McCain and let him take the brunt of what's going to happen next. Then we could elect a Democrat, later.

WHOOPI: Yeah. I mean, it's going to be -- as the Chinese say -- "It's going to be a very interesting ..."

LIZ: May you live in interesting times. And they weren't wishing you well.

JOAN: Electing a Republican and then, you know, waiting eight years, four years, for the good Democrat. That's like waiting for Him to call, you know.

LIZ: Exactly. You're right. It's a very depressing thought. I don't want to do that. And anyway, I don't think there'd be two terms for whoever gets it.

WHOOPI: No, I don't think so either. And their hair is going to go white instantaneously, as soon as they find out exactly what's really been going on because, you know, they keep saying, "Well, we didn't know that this was happening with the White House." But, in fact, that was done four years ago. When they find out all the stuff that has gone on that nobody knew about, except them -- the deals that were made, the selling of the United States of America to all these countries. And countries that don't even know they own pieces of us. We are so ... we are so screwed.

JOAN: I'm very, very polite to every Chinese person I see on the subway because I know --

LIZ: You know they own your ass.

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Comments

[onceler]

this is a very old dialog, I saw this episode like a month or more ago. I was pretty taken aback by Goldberg's attitude about taxation, she was basically calling for a flat tax at all income levels.

can she really know that little about economics?

[PierreLeClerke]

Dear Ms. Woopi, Feel free to use the enclosed as well as any of my writings you can find in Huffpo . I'm convinced your voice will add much needed volume and reach for ideas offering realistic actions that will make a difference for our Nation and the entire Planet.

The most arrogant entitlement attitude is from that of the wealthy person that somehow believes and promotes the theory, that they are entitled to reap and to keep, the vast majority of the harvest from this our great Nation. The belief that after hundreds of years of blood, sweat, tears, lives, and untold sacrifice, from millions of souls that carved this great society out of the wilderness. With zero consideration to the Natives that walked it before the great European on slot. With all the systems that have been built by the many; roads for their goods to be delivered on, schools to educate themselves and the workforce they rely upon, laws that protect the contract and conduct of commerce, utilities that power their endeavors, a monetary system that quantifies their gains, a research and development protocol funded by We the People for generations of ideas, The list is more than can be mentioned. And as our great infrastructure crumbles, These most arrogant of persons declares, "I created this wealth" "I created these jobs", I am entitled to keep the fruits of my labors". REALLY, Your Labors, I ask, I think not!

[giam]

We all paid higher tax rates fifty years ago. Overpaid professional jocks paid almost 90 per cent on a lot less income. Nailing the super rich could go a long way in helping the deficit, though corporate America would have us believe otherwise.

[julieeiluj]

Let's dump that tea, and a little gasoline, while we still have a King George.

[jollyelle]

Ms. Whoopee,
The hedge fund managers are only taxed at 15% because that's the tax rate of the investment $ used to pay their salary..so not fair, who dreamed of that loophole?
Your complaints are valid but they are complaints, not the struggle the average joe has when trying to earn a living. If we had a gov't that truly acted on our behalf it wouldn't be so bad paying for protected healthcare & retirement.
The incompetence, cronyism and general lack of oversight & integrity make it difficult to watch 1/2 of our paychecks disappear. Bottom line is --oil execs are calling the shots and making decisions based on business and profits rather than people.
We need to address the weak dollar(selling oil in Euros and not US$ really ticks them off), our marriage to the weapons industry and our foreign policies which gives away $ to countries who really give us only national insecurity in return.
We need to elect smart people- 8 years of this circus, double speak = bizarro world.
Kudos for tolerating your co-host, keep on with her, she needs to hear so many truths....so young, so privileged, so white
On Hagee- read John Nichols piece on The Nation-that will clearly state the reasons why we should be focusing on McCain and Hagee--it states the differences between the Obama/Wright relationship.
ON why the summer gas tax won't work- most all experts agree this is an unsound gimmick.
Good Luck

[procrustes]

To continue the metaphor, I should have added...and they (sheeple) come ready-made with wool over their eyes.

[procrustes]

Corrections:

Change "Real Ron Paul" to "Read Ron Paul"
Change "heart" to "social-heart" (He has a heart and is a very nice man.)

And while I'm at it, you should consider arranging a meeting with him and really learn what he's about. You won't agree with a lot of it, but you'll see he alone (excepting maybe Al Gore) sees the way foreward. Armed with his insights, you might be able to effect real change in the public attitude.

[Annette]

He may be a nice man, buy as a person who has read , at the local library, his newsletter he is a racist.

[procrustes]

I know all about the newsletter flap. I really doubt he is a racist, but that misses a MAJOR point. We have to stop throwing babies out with the bathwater.

If Hilter had the cure to cancer would you refuse to use it because Hitler invented it? What must be evaluated is the idea, not the source. Would you reject a book that had information that could earn money for you because you didn't like the publisher or the color of the cover?

There is an irony here: racism is all about rejecting people because of some superficial characteristic (usually skin color). So we reject Ron Paul's ideas because of something/someone he was associated with years ago? Isn't this the logical process that underpins racist logic? Isn't this playing out right now with Obama/Wright?

This disease of labelling people is killing our democracy. We smear a label on someone and they're immediately on the defensive. Usually they never get the label removed because once labelled, sheeple turn-off and refuse to listen.

Labels are fodder for lazy minds, and sheeple have notoriously lazy minds and gobble fodder unto oblivion (we have fat bodies and fat heads).

And, FYI, Rep. Paul has denied those allegations and says that the articles in that newsletter were published without his knowledge or consent. Now, whether you believe him or not (I do), at the least he regrets it.

[Stirner]

Humm... "He may be a nice man.... he is a racist"? -- an odd combination of ideas. Well, in any case, being a "racist" today is as easy as being "anti-semitic" -- a common set of easy-to-affix and ready-to-use labels. Sadly, for those who like to label rather than reason they are, because of their overuse, becoming less and less effective. Ah well, if you can't think of anything better to say than that you just hate "anti-" this or that, and that you are a victim, a special victim, a historic victim, then go to it, but remember playing the "victim" card is nothing but an attempt to create guilt in another. Neither Obama nor Paul are set upon making me feel guilty for something I haven't done. Why are you? Stop whining.

[procrustes]

You've hit the nail, Whoopi--the problem isn't so much the amount of taxes we pay, it's what we get for them, zippo! Our taxes, when you add them up are higher than Europe, and what do Europeans (sans UK) get?

-nearly free top-rate health care (Michael Moore)
-nearly free top-rate education
-job conscious government and real unemployment protection
-real pensions paid with real money
-peace in the valley
-modern public infrastructure
-freedom (relatively) from government snooping
-tax equality (mostly)
-higher standard of living
-lower crime

And I'll tell you a little secret (it's secret because the American Sheeple are too lazy to look), this economic "slowdown" has just begun. There will be another "Bear Stearns", and another, and finally the pain will be great enough that Sheeple will shape-shift back into people and blame the Democrats, and they'll be half-right.

Real Rep. Ron Paul's message (he's kind of like the Tin Man), give him a heart and you have the way foreward.

[Annette]

Actually the UK gaes most of those as well, they are snooped on a lot though. Great health care and good education.
Ron Paul doesn't like any of the benefits the europeans get for their money, the europeans sure do however.

[KarateKid]

Whoopie darling, it's hard for average Americans to have sympathy for a multimillionaire to complain about taxes. After all, Bush and his party have favored you with the tax cuts that put this country into massive debt.

[procrustes]

KarateKid darling, if we all paid more attention to the message instead of the deliverer, the world would be a much better place. I don't believe her message is about whinging for sympathy, she's making a valid point that we should take seriously.

I'll ask you the same quetion, sort of, that I asked above: if a millionaire had the cure to your financial challenges, would you refuse to listen because the source was a millionaire?

[Balloonman]

LIZ, if HILLARY as President went after the CREDIT CARD Companies it would be like her going against the WAR that she helped to happpen since she voted for the BAKNRUPTCY BILL making it hard for broke consumers to declare bankruptcy and thus absolve credit card debt.

[maggipost]

Hillary did not vote for the current bankruptcy bill. She voted for an earlier version when she first entered the Senate, but that bill did not pass. The bill which is currently law was passed in 2005. Hillary did not vote for that bill. She has stated that she changed her viewpoint in the interim, primarily based on the credit card exception.

[Agentlady007]

HuffPost's Pick

Hi Whoopi - I loved you in Steven Spielbergs academy award winning performance The Color Purple.

You brought us back into time. Thank you. It was the time of repression and distress. THE Depression started shortly after that. The US hasn't suffered as much since, because we are now involved in a war. Please be more patient as the war ends, and people all across the Midddle East feel a sense of American pride about Democracy - ownership for all.

Peace and tranquility.

Agentlady007

[Agentlady007]

Oh Dear that was Oprah. Sorry. Clear mistake. You both confuse me sometimes like the two professors in Harry Potter. God, I am sorry for that mistake. You were just as good as Oprah for what it's woth in Ghost and Sister Act. I still love you too. !~!!

[JohnDewey]

Both Whoopi Goldberg & Oprah Winfrey were in the Spielberg adaptation of "The Color Purple."

They were both good, too.

[johnnyhempseed]

Gee Ladies,don't you want to support the war against "Terra" don't ya know the U.S. military is the largest consumer of fossil fuels in the world?Don't ya want to line the pockets of the M.I.C. that Eisenhower warned about.Come on now you have all benifited mightily from the capitalist system in the U.S.A. do your part to support the empire building imperialism of our great homeland,and don't complain! pease

[kawika]

Thankk you Whoopi for being one of the point0001 percent among african americans that they can state they are amongst the highest taxed.

[marko77]

Joan said she was very polite to Chinese people on the subway, because, as Liz said, "you know they own your ass." Well, if the Chinese "own" us economically, it's because US business leaders, who are making millions and billions from the Global Economy, have helped to bring it about - for their own gain.

I don't think we have to be unduly nice or nasty to Chinese people we may encounter, because the vast majority aren't benefitting from the Global Economy anyway. However, as a side note, when the Chinese govt. allowed tainted medicine into the US and people died, the people in the Chinese govt. give a shit. Why? Because the dead were not Chinese. Sadly, this is the case. People who have been oppressed in the past (like the Chinese by the Japanese prior to and during WWII) don't tend to remember what it was like, and that's a shame.

[XCITIZEN]

Some excellent points, although very difficult to follow.

Basically, the Bush NeoCons are going to steal as much money from taxpayers as they possibly can before the Bush Administration folds, and then they're going to take their money to Argentina or some other place and set up housekeeping like all the other war criminals in history. America, prepare to be fucked.