Many Believe US Already in a Recession

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JEANNINE AVERSA | February 10, 2008 05:50 PM EST | AP

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WASHINGTON — Empty homes and for-sale signs clutter neighborhoods. You've lost your job or know someone who has. Your paycheck and nest egg are taking a hit.

Could the country be in recession?

Sixty-one percent of the public believes the economy is now suffering through its first recession since 2001, according to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll.

The fallout from a depressed housing market and a credit crunch nearly caused the economy to stall in the final three months of last year. Some experts, like the majority of people questioned in the poll, say the economy actually may be shrinking now. The worry is that consumers and businesses will hunker down further and pull back spending, sending the economy into a tailspin.

"Absolutely, we're in a recession," said Hilda Sanchez, 44, of Waterford, Calif.

Squeezed by high energy and food bills, "we can't afford the things that we normally buy," she said. "We are cutting corners in our spending. For our groceries, we are buying a lot of generic and we are eating out less."

For many, the meltdown in the housing and mortgage markets has proved especially disturbing. Record numbers of people were forced from their homes, unable to afford the monthly loan payments. People watched their single biggest asset fall in value, a reason to tighten the belt.

"Obviously the housing market is creating deep concern. And one of the real problems could be that if people, as a result of their value of their homes going down, kind of pull in their horns," President Bush said in a television interview aired Sunday.

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Credit has become harder to get, thwarting would-be home buyers, adding to the glut of unsold homes and aggravating the housing industry's woes.

"For-sale signs are everywhere. In my area, 35 to 40 homes are standing there and aren't even complete. There aren't any buyers," said Jim Sims, 60, of Greer, S.C.

Nanette Dahlin, 52, of St. Louis Park, Minn., called the situation "very scary." She said friends in Madison, Minn., put their home up for sale recently and reduced the asking price more than $100,000 in just a week. "They are in bad shape," Dahlin said.

For all of 2007, the economy grew by just 2.2 percent. That was the weakest performance since 2002, when the country was struggling to recover from the last recession. The housing collapse was the biggest culprit in 2007. Builders lowered spending on housing projects by 16.9 percent on an annualized basis, the most in 25 years.

The job market is faltering _ a point driven home by a report showing that employers cut jobs in January for the first time in more than four years.

"The way things are, people are afraid of losing their jobs," Sanchez said.

Employment concerns are contributing to darker feelings about the economy and people's own financial well-being. Consumer confidence, as measured by the RBC Cash Index, dropped to a mark of 48.5 in early February. It was the worst reading since the index began in 2002.

A cooling job market along with high energy and food prices are taking a toll on paychecks. Workers' average weekly earnings, adjusted for inflation, fell 0.9 percent last year. In 2006, earnings grew by a solid 2.1 percent.

Wall Street is unsettled and as a result, people's nest eggs are not what they once were.

In fact, that was the top economic worry in the AP-Ipsos poll. Fifty-nine percent said they were worried "a lot" or "some" about seeing the value of stocks and retirement investments drop.

"I really dread opening my (financial) statements," Sims said.

By one rough rule of thumb, a recession occurs when there are two consecutive quarters _ six straight months _ when the economy shrinks. That did not happen in the last recession, though. The economy contracted in the first quarter of 2001, turned positive in the second quarter, shrank in the third quarter and turned up again in the final quarter of that year.

The National Bureau of Economic Research, the recognized arbiters for dating recessions, uses a more complicated formula. It takes into account such things as employment and income growth. By that measure, the last recession was in 2001, starting in March and ending in November.

Bush, citing some experts, said the U.S. was not in a recession, although he acknowledged "that the signs are troubling enough" to justify the $168 billion economic rescue plan that passed Congress this past week. The measure he intends to sign on Wednesday includes tax rebates for people and tax breaks for businesses.

To bolster the economy, the Federal Reserve embarked on a rate-cutting campaign in September, with two big reductions last month. In just eight days in January, the Fed slashed rates by 1.25 percentage points. The hope it that the lower rates will induce people to buy more and revive the economy.

So if the poll figure of 61 percent is right _ that the country is now in recession _ then those relief efforts will help ease the effect of a downturn.

"People are both depressed and anxious about the state of affairs. The anxiety is going to persist because we are in an uncertain season economically and politically," said Terry Connelly, dean of Golden Gate University's Ageno School of Business.

The poll was based on the responses from 1,006 adults surveyed Monday through Wednesday about their attitudes on personal finance and the economy. Results of the survey had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

WASHINGTON — Empty homes and for-sale signs clutter neighborhoods. You've lost your job or know someone who has. Your paycheck and nest egg are taking a hit. Could the country be in recession?...
WASHINGTON — Empty homes and for-sale signs clutter neighborhoods. You've lost your job or know someone who has. Your paycheck and nest egg are taking a hit. Could the country be in recession?...
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- Graywolf48 I'm a Fan of Graywolf48 77 fans permalink
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How much longer will the average working stiff wait to be "trickled down on"? The Republican's have always been good for business, but bad for the economy. During papa Bush's bad economy he bought some socks. May junior can pick up a six pack? Is there anything this man touches that doesn't turn to crap?

An economy heavy with military spending is not a solid economy. Too bad our schools don't teach basic economics anymore, and people don't know that you can either choose guns or butter. We have chosen guns, and soon we won't be able to afford Parkway!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 AM on 02/12/2008

The Bush economy was based on ONE THING - sucking the equity out of the nation's housing stock.

So Lowe's, Home Depot, and a few others made a killing for a while - and now their is nothing left to borrow from.

Bush made money for his buddies in the munitions industry - and his Blackwater thugs.

The rest of the economy ran on equity. NOw the party is over - and what is going to happen to those jackals who packaged all those subprime loans to 'spread the risk' ???

They should be rounded up, and put in a cell with a gal named Jamal. Why not?

Why is nobody outraged that these demons are still free men? They took the money and screwed everybody else.... all around the world.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:03 AM on 02/12/2008


It is great to see so many more people calling the republicans on all the BS spin on how great the economy is and has been under Bush. Finally. Now if you guys want to have some real fun, go over to the BLS site and read about how they cook the employment numbers. We have -- in real jobs, not statistical vapor jobs -- have had negative employment numbers for well over six months.

oh, and then you might want to go on over to the Fed's site and look up the numbers on our banking system's capital reserves. Those went negative in the last report.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:35 AM on 02/12/2008

National Debt as of January 20, 2001=$5.7 Trillion
Since Bush=$9.2 Trillion

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:33 PM on 02/11/2008
- mmckinl I'm a Fan of mmckinl 22 fans permalink

It will be over 10 Trillion by the end of Bush's term.

Clearly the United States is insolvent. Budget deficits, trade deficits, large public expenditures for SSI and Medicare looming while debt from the public and private sectors is 2x the total GNP.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 PM on 02/11/2008
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And most of the planet lives on less than two dollars a day.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 02/11/2008

Real GDP growth during the Clinton Administra­tion=4.09% average per year over 8 years; Bush=2.65% over 7 years. Courtesy Bureau Of Economic Analysis.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 02/11/2008
- Dendroica I'm a Fan of Dendroica 30 fans permalink

But if you eliminate chained dollar federal debt from that Bush growth, you get 1.52%. That's barely above population gain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:49 PM on 02/11/2008
- Gumby123 I'm a Fan of Gumby123 15 fans permalink
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The stimulus package is going ahead, and it will send every American (well, at least every American who doesn't live in a household that makes over $175k per year) $600 to "stimulate the economy". That's approximately 60 lukewarm ballpark beers, 30 private lapdances at an average midwest strip club, 2 Remington 870 12-gauge shotguns ("Express" model with the parkerized finish, not the premium model which is approximately twice the price of the Express), or one moderately severe beating administered to your former high school tormentor by Moose & Rocko.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:07 AM on 02/11/2008
- Nova16 I'm a Fan of Nova16 34 fans permalink

It is good to see that some are showing their knowlege of economics by touting the old definition of a recession as 2 quarters of negative growth in the GDP. The economic indicators may forecast by-passing a recession and heading straight for a depression. Bush, 24 hours before begging for a stimulus package to avoid recession or worse was touting his "excellent" economy. He went from prosperity to panic in just 24 hours. The economic factors such as galactic private and public debt, heavy borrowing from abroad, outsourcing, layoffs, growing unemployment, loss of 3 million mfg jobs under Bush, current accounts deficits and enlarging, trade deficits, energy costs thru the roof, failing dollar, endless war sapping our treasury, credit market drying up, housing market tanking, auto industry in arrears, social security and medicare costs skyrocketing, etc., etc. Consumers are not in a mood to purchase which is the key for any business or corporation to profit and survive--that's Econ 101.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:31 AM on 02/11/2008

...

I'd bet that less than ten percent of the public actually knows what a recession is -- two consecutive quarters (that would be at least six months) of negative GDP growth.

But that doesn't stop the press from constantly sounding the alarms and feeding the fire. I would also guess that a majority of the press doesn't know what a recession is either.

The economy is dynamic. It cycles. It breathes in and out. It goes up and down. Bureaucratic micro-managing is the last thing it needs, although many feel that the role of government is to "fix everything". This ridiculous "stimulus" package is a perfect example. Borrowing more money to "fix" a problem. Holy crap.

It is nice, however, to see the Democrats finally admit that giving people their money back is good for the economy. Democrats as Supply Siders -- Go figure.

...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:44 PM on 02/10/2008

Todays date, and more sobering:
 Skip to main content, accesskey 's'
 Homepage, accesskey '1'
Financial Times FT.com


Capital markets

No relief in sight for CDO investors
By Sam Jones and Stacy-Marie Ishmael in London
Published: January 10 2008 23:32 | Last updated: January 10 2008 23:32
Investors in collateralised debt obligations face further downgrades and the possibility that the value of their investments will plummet or be wiped out.
About $58bn worth of CDOs, which repackage slices of other structured deals such as mortgage-backed bonds, are understood to have hit “events of default”.
A growing number of those are being pushed towards liquidation, which means a fire sale of some assets and the unwinding of the large derivatives contracts that make up much of the structure of these CDOs. About 25 CDOs have already been “accelerated”, meaning the coupons and principal on their issued bonds come due immediately. This does not necessarily lead to the liquidation of a CDO, but it is a natural step towards it.
Stephen Lioce, a senior credit officer at Moody’s, said: “The issues surrounding ABS CDOs that are in default are complex and are constantly changing. It’s a bit like a rapidly changing puzzle with many moving parts.”
The situation is so severe that holders of notes rated triple-A, supposed to be the least risky pieces of CDO debt, might experience losses or be wiped out.
www.ft.com/alphaville/CDOblog
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008

"FT" and "Financial Times" are trademarks of the Financial Times. Privacy policy | Terms
© Copyright The Financial Times Ltd 2008.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 02/10/2008
- ceasenake I'm a Fan of ceasenake 8 fans permalink

If the American public got a taste of real hard times they would know this is (so far) a walk in the park.

Remember the Carter economy?

Double digit annual inflation rate (13.5%) high unemployment (7.7%) and double digit interest rates (18%) all at the same time.

I hope Obama has a better plan than Carter did. He already wants to talk to Ahmadinejad - Carters ole buddy from the Iranian hostage crisis for those 444 days.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 02/10/2008
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Do you remember Carter saying that The U.S. needed to cut our dependance on petroleum fuels?

Do you remember Peace Treaties being signed in The Middle East?

Do you remember that Carter inheirited that economy from RePugs who saddled the U.S. with debt for a bullshit war.


    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 02/10/2008
- Dendroica I'm a Fan of Dendroica 30 fans permalink

You neglect to mention that Carter had to deal with the debt owed by the Vietnam War. Funny how you fail to mention the WIN crisis of Nixon and Ford, and the food shortages of 1972.

Now I want to talk about unemployment; you've clearly pulled those numbers out of your ass. Below are the BLS.Gov figures for jobs in America- shown are January dates. First, I've got the last 6 full years of the Nixon and Ford administration.

1970 78780
1971 78864
1972 80959
1973 83161
1974 86555
1975 85627
1976 87400

So in 7 years, ending with the below figure, we have an increase of about 11 million jobs. Not terrible.

1977 89928
1979 97948
1980 99879
1981 99955

But notice that under the first two years of Carter's presidency, a whopping TEN MILLION new jobs were formed. Put that in perspective, that is more than the entire Bush 1 and Bush two presidencies COMBINED. In his last two years, only 2 million jobs were created, still 12 million for 4 years is not bad considering that the last 30 years of Republican presidents hasn't generated much more than that.

1982 99692
1983 99161

And now we have Reagan-- two years, negative job growth. If trickle down was so successful, shouldn't it have gotten BETTER, NOT WORSE?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:44 AM on 02/11/2008
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A recession is when a third of the people on your block are barely making ends meet, a third of the block is behind on their mortgages, and the other third are in Foreclosure or have already been evicted. It takes Wall Street six months to figure it out because they are so far removed from Main Street.

The quick fix we need is REGULATION!

The Free Market has a cost - the middle class.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 PM on 02/10/2008
- Dendroica I'm a Fan of Dendroica 30 fans permalink

I'd bet that less than 10% of Americans know that there is a 150% greater chance of being in a recession under a Republican president, then they are under a Democrat.

The economy is dynamic, but that change can be influenced by monetary policy, as well as the allocation of taxes and spending. By shifting taxation so heavily to the middle-classes and the poor (bear in mind that our nation chooses to put SSI and Medicare funds directly into the treasury, instead of independent funds) we've reached a state where middle-class families are now taxed at a rate of nearly 40% on their income, whereas the rich who earn stock options are taxed at 15%. This is the total and abject failure of supply side, which is made obvious by the nearly doubling of the federal debt that has happened under EACH of the last two Republican presidents, and even worse under Reagan.

Republicans are very bad for the economic health of our nation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:33 AM on 02/11/2008
- Cathexis I'm a Fan of Cathexis 7 fans permalink

*Nicely* stated!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 02/11/2008

Mac, where did you get your economic degree from: Bob Jones Univiersity or Oral Roberts University? Conservatives love voodoo economic theory which has proven wrong every time they use it, but they keep getting away with screwing the country because they talk about Jesus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 AM on 02/11/2008
- ceasenake I'm a Fan of ceasenake 8 fans permalink

This story is a testiment to the fact that the average American doesn't know squat about the economy and especially doesn't know what a real downturn would look and feel like.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:28 PM on 02/10/2008
- Cid I'm a Fan of Cid 4 fans permalink

Yeah! Bunch of whiny-assed, newly homeless losers, that can't feed and cloth their kids, what do they know about the economy, or what a REAL downturn would look like?! --(/sarcasm)-- Go Cheney yourself repubtard.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:52 AM on 02/11/2008

ceasenake: where do you clowns hide during the day? You seem to come out only at night with your inane comments. Back to your hole, termite.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 AM on 02/11/2008
- olephart I'm a Fan of olephart 104 fans permalink

The first thing everyone must understand is that ALL of the official numbers are not just cooked, they are pan fried, par boiled and served with a heaping side order of absolute bullshit. For anyone who has suspected this but just couldn't quite put their finger on it go here:

http://www.shadowstats.com/

You will find with mathematical certainty why when everything you buy is going up 20% the "official" inflation number was only 2.7%. Why if the GDP is really going up why there are no good jobs. Speaking of no jobs, one number the Government releases but is not widely disseminated is the broader measure of unemployment, U-6. The one you hear about is U-3. The reason is that U-6 is 9.0% while U-3 is 4.9%.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm

Here are some highlights:

Jobs created by American companies overseas are counted in the job creation numbers each month. When the report says 100,000 new jobs, they could be in India.

The GDP figure is "enhanced" by including imputed income. An example would be that all homeowners are credited with having "earned" the rental equivalent values of their homes. The fees that are waived on your checking accounts are counted as income.

When the price of a product rises the Federal Reserve may "substitute" a cheaper item to minimize inflation.

If you feel as if you're being screwed, it is because you ARE being screwed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:51 PM on 02/10/2008

So far repressing the truth and promoting lies and misdirection has been a winning strategy. When it doesn't work anymore there will be far more recourse to threats and intimidation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:26 PM on 02/10/2008
- degjack I'm a Fan of degjack 8 fans permalink


Recession my a**. Try DEPRESSION! A little truth for a change!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:02 PM on 02/10/2008

Economist Nouriel Roubini said:

“One has to realize that there is now a rising probability of a 'catastrophic' financial and economic outcome, i.e. a vicious circle where a deep recession makes the financial losses more severe and where, in turn, large and growing financial losses and a financial meltdown make the recession even more severe. That is why the Fed has thrown caution to the wind and taken a very aggressive approach to risk management.” (Nouriel Roubini EconoMonitor)

" Great. That's reassuring. And there's more, too. FDIC Chairman Shiela Bair warned that “as of Sept. 30, there were 65 institutions with assets of $18.5 billion on its list of "problem" institutions;” although she wouldn't give names.

So, what does it all mean?

It means there's going to be an unprecedented wave of bank closures in the US and that people who want to hold on to their life savings are going have to be extra vigilant as the situation continues to deteriorate. And it is deteriorating very quickly.

According to Reuters: “Dozens of U.S. banks will fail in the next two years as losses from soured loans mount and regulators crack down on lenders that take too much risk, especially in real estate and construction," predicts Gerard Cassidy, RBC Capital Markets analyst."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19307.htm

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:54 PM on 02/10/2008

I think the impending bank failures will be the first thing that finally makes Americans look up from their tee vee dinners and say - what the fuck?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:32 PM on 02/10/2008
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I've been saying this for months here in the business section along with a few others (ErnestineBass, mmckinl, WIpatriot)
and folks were laughing at us and calling us chicken littles and Cassandra's. Now the ALREADY INSOLVENT FDIC eases out and makes this belated proclamation a full six months after it was readily apparent? Not many people laughing anymore though.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 02/11/2008

Just K.I.S.S. Economics, dear. Tracking the price of staples like milk, eggs and a loaf of decent bread will always be very dependable indicators of inflationary activity.

"I see millions of families trying to live on incomes so meager that the pall of family disaster hangs over them day by day...I see one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished." From FDR's 1937 Inaugural Address.

I wonder, do you think our next POTUS will be honest enough to admit as much in his or her inaugural address?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 AM on 02/12/2008
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The Con Me is a game, it's run by pros, who now operate databases to winnow out their 'marks' with digital efficiency, face the facts, Mr. and Mrs. Consumer, you're owned. Question everything, make no assumptions, definitely Caveat Emptor...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 PM on 02/10/2008
- aigeanta I'm a Fan of aigeanta 5 fans permalink
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perpetual growth is unsustainable no matter what.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 PM on 02/10/2008
- HumeSkeptic I'm a Fan of HumeSkeptic 1565 fans permalink
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And death is inevitable. I think that is an excelent argument to stop treating disease.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:14 PM on 02/10/2008
- mmckinl I'm a Fan of mmckinl 22 fans permalink

The corporatocracy is causing the disease with the rampant destruction of the environment to create ever more "wealth". In other words the only way to create more "wealth" is the destruction of the environment. At some point there will be no more economically marginal resources and the world will drown in debt.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 02/10/2008

"And death is inevitable."

Speak for yourself. I'll introduce you to MY god IF you have an open mind.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 PM on 02/10/2008
- yappnmutt I'm a Fan of yappnmutt 69 fans permalink

will you all just go out and work. work your ass off and your spouse,too. work until you die and buy lots of crap in the meantime. don't worry. you will be needed when you are 64 because social security with no pension will make you work forever. this is the age of perpetuals. perpetual war. perpetual work. perpetual poverty......

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 PM on 02/10/2008
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