Bush to Veto Bill Banning Waterboarding

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DEB RIECHMANN | March 8, 2008 09:03 PM EST | AP

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Protestors demonstrate the use of waterboarding on a volunteer in front of the Justice Department in Washington in this Nov. 5, 2007, file photo. President Bush said Saturday, March 8, 2008, he vetoed legislation that would ban the CIA from using harsh interrogation methods such as waterboarding to break suspected terrorists because it would end practices that have prevented attacks. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta, File)

WASHINGTON — Democrats and human rights advocates criticized President Bush's veto Saturday of a bill that would have banned the CIA from using simulated drowning and other coercive interrogation methods to gain information from suspected terrorists.

Bush said such tactics have helped foil terrorist plots. His critics likened some methods to torture and said they sullied America's reputation around the world.

"This president had the chance to end the torture debate for good, yet he chose instead to leave the door open to use torture in the future," said Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

She said Bush ignored the advice of 43 retired generals and admirals and 18 national security experts, including former secretaries of state and national security advisers, who supported the bill.

"Torture is a black mark against the United States," she said.

The bill would have limited the CIA to 19 interrogation techniques that are used by the military and spelled out in the Army Field Manual. Bush said he vetoed the measure because it is important for the CIA to have a separate and classified interrogation program for suspected terrorists who possess critical information about possible plots against the United States.

Bush, who used his weekly radio address to announce the veto, said the program had helped stop plots against a Marine camp in Djibouti and the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, and plans to fly passenger planes into a Los Angeles tower or London's Heathrow Airport and city buildings.

"Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaida and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," the president said.

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House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the nation's ability to lead the world depends on its morality, not military might. "We will begin to reassert that moral authority by attempting to override the president's veto next week," said Pelosi, D-Calif.

Based on the margin of passage in each chamber, it may prove difficult for the Democratic-controlled Congress to turn back Bush's veto. It takes a two-thirds majority, and the vote was 222-199 in the House and 51-45 in the Senate.

Bush said he did not veto the bill specifically over waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning. The Army banned the use of waterboarding or sensory deprivation on uncooperative prisoners in 2006. The CIA, which also prohibited the practice in 2006, has acknowledged using waterboarding on three suspected terrorists in 2003.

"My disagreement ... is not over any particular interrogation technique; for instance, it is not over waterboarding, which is not part of the current CIA program," Bush said in his veto message to the House.

The attorney general has deemed that program legal under domestic and international law, he said.

Still, waterboarding remains in the CIA's tool kit. The technique can be used, but it requires the consent of the attorney general and president on a case-by-case basis. Bush wants to keep that option open.

"I cannot sign into law a bill that would prevent me, and future presidents, from authorizing the CIA to conduct a separate, lawful intelligence program, and from taking all lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack," Bush said in a statement.

Democrats say the CIA should be restricted to the techniques in the Army Field Manual. They include the "good cop-bad cop" routine; making prisoners think they are in another country's custody; and separating a prisoner from others for up to 30 days.

In addition to waterboarding, the field manual prohibits hooding prisoners or putting duct tape across their eyes; stripping prisoners naked; and forcing prisoners to perform or mimic sexual acts. It also prohibits beating, burning or physically hurting prisoners in other ways; subjecting them to hypothermia or mock executions. It does not allow food, water and medical treatment to be withheld. Dogs may not be used in any aspect of interrogation.

Waterboarding involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning. It has been traced back hundreds of years to the Spanish Inquisition and is condemned by nations around the world and human rights organizations as torture.

In a memo to CIA employees Saturday, CIA Director Michael Hayden said the Army Field Manual does not "exhaust the universe" of lawful interrogation techniques. "There are methods in the CIA's program that have been briefed to our oversight committees, are fully consistent with the Geneva Convention and current U.S. law and are most certainly not torture," Hayden wrote.

Sen. Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said he had heard nothing to suggest that the CIA, through enhanced interrogation methods, had obtained information to thwart a terrorist attack. "On the other hand, I do know that coercive interrogations can lead detainees to provide false information in order to make the interrogation stop," said Rockefeller, D-W.Va.

There also are concerns that the use of waterboarding would undermine U.S. human rights efforts overseas and could place Americans at greater risk of being tortured if they are captured abroad.

"The president's refusal to sign this crucial legislation into law will undermine counterterrorism efforts globally and delay efforts to rebuild U.S. credibility on human rights," said Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights First.

Bush objected to two other provisions:

_a new independent inspector general for the government's intelligence agencies to improve coordination and information-sharing. Bush said the position was unnecessary.

_Senate confirmation of the directors of the National Security Agency and National Reconnaissance Office. Bush said that could delay the directors' ability to take over quickly and risk injecting politics into the selection process.

___

On the Net:

Bush's veto message: http://tinyurl.com/ypxqnc

WASHINGTON — Democrats and human rights advocates criticized President Bush's veto Saturday of a bill that would have banned the CIA from using simulated drowning and other coercive interrogatio...
WASHINGTON — Democrats and human rights advocates criticized President Bush's veto Saturday of a bill that would have banned the CIA from using simulated drowning and other coercive interrogatio...
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- StillAmused I'm a Fan of StillAmused 274 fans permalink

Just a short hop from blowing up frogs as a sociopathic, mutant child to chasing imaginary "evildoers", killing the innocent on a grand scale, capturing people at random and torturing them in the name of Jeebus.

... and that reliable, congenitally defective third of the population stands and applauds, terrified that, if they see him for what he really is, they'll see the same thing in themselves.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 AM on 03/12/2008
- Free-Will I'm a Fan of Free-Will 11 fans permalink
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I want to stress that WATERBOARDING IS NOT SIMULATED DROWNING, IT IS DROWING, and it should be always remembered and reminded to anyone discussing or writing about it. The media should be very careful in defining torture techniques as simulations, because they foster a false understanding of what they really are and of their killing potential. This enables all those who want to use these techniques to have an excuse for doing so by dimishing the criminal aspect of torture and responsibility of those involved in ordering and/or applying it.
I invite the readers to go back to an Op-Ed by Malcolm Nance on Small Wars Journal (Oct. 31, 2007) prior to his testimony to House and Senate Committees and TV, radio and newspapers interviews, where he explains in detail what waterboarding is and means. http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
Mr Nance speaks about his professional experience and world wide study and interviews about torture:
"As a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, California I know the waterboard personally and intimately. SERE staff were required undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception……
"There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists
1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. .....
2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.
Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.........................................
3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives. The Small Wars Council had a spirited discussion about this earlier in the year, especially when former Marine Generals Krulak and Hoar rejected all arguments for torture." (The Article by Marine Generals Charles C. Krulak and Joseph P. Hoar where they discuss how "Torture Betrays Us and Breeds New Enemies" can be read at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602395.html)
"Once convicted in a fair, public tribunal, they would have the rest of their lives, however short the law makes it, to come to terms with their God and their acts.
This is not enough for our President. He apparently secretly ordered the core American values of fairness and justice to be thrown away in the name of security from terrorists. He somehow determined that the honor the military, the CIA and the nation itself was an acceptable trade for the superficial knowledge of the machinations of approximately 2,000 terrorists, most of whom are being decimated in Iraq or martyring themselves in Afghanistan. It is a short sighted and politically motivated trade that is simply disgraceful. There is no honor here.
It is outrageous that American officials, including the Attorney General and a legion of minions of lower rank have not only embraced this torture but have actually justified it, redefined it to a misdemeanor, brought it down to the level of a college prank and then bragged about it. The echo chamber that is the American media now views torture as a heroic and macho.
Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet, convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured. In essence, our own missteps have created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda’s own virtual SERE school for terrorists.”

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:24 PM on 03/11/2008
- MAX1 I'm a Fan of MAX1 17 fans permalink
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.

A rose (enhanced interragations) by any other name.
Is a rose (TORTURE) just the same.

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 AM on 03/11/2008
- hmmmmmer I'm a Fan of hmmmmmer 31 fans permalink

So when they use the excuse that we did it so it is ok against Americans we can turn to Bush and say, "Job well done!" Is this the America we have all come to love, I think not. Republicans are going down this next election.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 PM on 03/09/2008
- Zankee I'm a Fan of Zankee 2 fans permalink

Bush's agenda is not sane, to a FREE Republic that boasts of belief in GOD, and hasn't been for quite some time, unfortunately, our society itself, must be a little -to say the least- insane to allow such a nut to be in the position that he has us!

Let us not forget: It was WE the PEOPLE that put these NUTS in the HIGHEST office in the land and, there's no "single one" to blame; we, the CITIZENS all share the "blame", for not being more VIGILANT in demanding respect for, and responsibility to, the Constitution and Republic.., SHAME on US for ALLOWING this circumstance to evolve.., and to HELL for US, if WE should allow such mockery and blasphemy to continue....

Bush is no Hitler: Hitler was understood, and respected by HIS people, and; I believe Hitler's legacy will sink in the wake of bush's impact and legacy...!
Because we did not LEARN, from past experiences to protect from Tyrants and, their Ideas for mankind.., we are now about to pay a tremendous price for our ignorance and lethargy....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:09 PM on 03/09/2008
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This nation is being led by a corrupt, law ignoring, lying Fascist dictatorship. We are being ruled by a shell of a man who has exclaimed; "The Constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper!"
The administration has run our nation into the ground from just about every aspect. When my wife and I travel overseas we have to apologize for this pecker head. This nation can only survive on it's past reputation for so long. Handing out mosquito nets to one nations people while killing the inhabitants of another while stealing their resources, has become painfully obvious to the rest of the world and shamefully, to us as well.
bush committed fraud regarding the false allegations that Iraq had WMD's. This should have been enough to impeach and try in a court of law, ala, Nuremberg style. But no, we keep on a path of destruction, much like fascist Nazi Germany did in WW2.
Wasn't it bush who recently said "The United States doesn't use torture." What a lying sack of crap - what a laughing stock the USA has become around the world. The Euro hit $1.54 today - This nation is now both morally and fiscally bankrupt. The German people couldn't end their war with the world and had to be stomped into the ground to get their madman to stop the plunder - Who will stop our Hitler?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:58 PM on 03/09/2008
- unhipcat I'm a Fan of unhipcat 7 fans permalink
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Once again, Clinton and Obama didn't vote.
This, Mukasey, telecom immunity they couldn't make it back to DC for.
I did, however, see both mugs on TV during State of the Union.
It would be nice if they could participate in functions of the government for which they were elected.
Very disappointing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 PM on 03/09/2008

The Bush Legacy
When a person stands on the steps of the capitol raises his right hand and swears publicly to uphold
and defend the Constitution of the United States of America -twice. Just what is he doing?
Is the constitution that hard to understand , is it badly written?. Is every lawyer in the nation
unable to read or hear? Is every law school trembling with fear. How could one person destroy
the justice department , disregard the constitution and make torture legal. To let this person walk is to destroy the constitution itself

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 AM on 03/09/2008
- Tankan I'm a Fan of Tankan 3 fans permalink

And just to underline his approval of torture, George W. sang a little ditty to the tune of The Green Green Grass of Home!

Tom Jones he's not, Grande Ole Opery material he's not!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 03/09/2008

For the past couple of years it has been clear to me that Bush is insane. And I do mean that clinically! It is dangerous to put a dimwit in power. He is above the law and no one is stopping him. Where is congress when all of this is going on? He continues to break the law and everyone that has the power to stop him just sits with their fingers folded. If congress doesn't do something they all need to be voted out of office.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 03/09/2008

I bet he would cough up some great new info about the 911 attacks if someone would waterboard him. Is there some reason that we still have no idea about any of the details of the 911 attacks? Yes. The reason is Bush & Cheney decided what would be investigated

Would the trolls still adore Bush and hate Muslims if they knew all the facts about 911? Probably. they are pretty fucking stupid. Most of those guys think the Bible is literally true and the Earth is flat

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 AM on 03/09/2008
- Fathoms I'm a Fan of Fathoms 4 fans permalink

Yet another example of this monkey and his fellow traveller's perfidy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 AM on 03/09/2008

It is not Congress that is putting us at risk; it is George Bush. Congress is supposed to be in control in this country, yet under Bush they have become costly figureheads. They need to assert themselves and order that Bush and Cheney be waterboarded, and then see if Bush fights them when they override his veto which, for the sake of this country, THEY HAD BETTER DO!

One note. The main war in Iraq now is a civil war between religious factions. Bush is bringing us to that same deadly edge -- us against the so-called "Christians". I find Bush's arrogance and ignorance far more frightening that anything terrorists could throw at us these days. He is simply the little rich kid in the school yard who stands back and lets everyone else take the beating for him.

IMPEACH!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 AM on 03/09/2008
- wcfar I'm a Fan of wcfar 5 fans permalink

Groundhog day for the Veto man...veto, veto, veto. Compromise, care about the common folk? Hell no, he just keep marching to the same lame drummer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:17 AM on 03/09/2008
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How quickly would a Madison or Jerfferson destroy the nonsencial argument for torture - how pale and small todays protectors of our liberties seem by comparison to those founding statesmen. Are we incapable of standing up for the principals that we claim to cherish so dearly? We have lost our way as a country as a people and as a civilization - will corporate interests be all that remains of this grand experiment?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:44 AM on 03/09/2008
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