Florida: Today In In Unseated Convention Delegates

Oh, Florida, you bring us such confusion. How else to describe the torturous process of settling the eventual fate of the Florida delegation to the Democratic National Convention. Yesterday, we were left to figure out how this statement wasn't some sort of contradiction:

In a statement, House members from Florida said they were committed to working with the DNC and state officials to find a solution to ensure that their 210 delegates take their place at the convention. However, "Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind."

If a redo is a non-starter, what work is there to commit to? Well, regardless of what the Florida House delegation thinks should happen, state party officials are pressing the case for a mail-in redo, despite the "vigorous opposition." The campaigns have drawn their lines in the sand, with the Clinton camp flatly stating that "she would absolutely not accept a negotiated apportionment of Florida's delegates, as the state's House delegation has suggested," and the Obama campaign registering concerns that a mail-in vote might not be "fair to all voters and whether it could be pulled off, given that Florida has never done it before." Amid the back-and-forth, Florida Senate leader Steve Geller, has made his own position clear as well:

"I don't care what the Clinton or Obama campaigns think...I don't represent Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. I'm the Senate Democratic leader of Florida. My goal is to get the votes of 4 million Florida Democrats to count."

But a new wrinkle has emerged - the fate of the Florida-based superdelegates. According to Atlantic blogger Marc Ambinder, Florida DNC member John Ausman has filed an appeal with the party, claiming that the penalties imposed on Florida as a result of their decision to move their primary do not apply to superdelegates:

...the charter explicitly states that the following members of the party are automatically granted the status of delegates no matter what: "members of the Democratic National Committee, Democratic members of the United States Senate and the Democratic Members of the House of Representatives, former Chairs of the Democratic National Committee."

Ambinder also notes today that Republican nominee John McCain has decided to contest his party's ruling on the Florida delegation as well. According to the New Hampshire Union Leader, McCain "supports overturning RNC-imposed sanctions that cut those states' delegations by half."

At first blush, McCain's stand on the matter seems superfluous - after all, his nomination is secure and Florida will be represented at the GOP Convention in St. Paul. But methinks there is some "strategery" at work, here. By taking up the cause, McCain is giving his party a chance to distinguish themselves from the dysfunction that plagues the DNC on the same matter. Additionally, if the party steps in to honor McCain's wishes, it will do much to boost the perception that conservative party officials have fully embraced their nominee.

Comments

[crimlawdfender]

If even Florida does have a do-over, will they even be able to count the votes anyway? If the delegates are seated based on the earlier primary, then Florida will be deciding the next president as they did the last. I'm sick and I'm tired, sick and tired of Florida. I think Florida should secede from union - they cannot count and they cannot play by the rules - they only muck everything else up for the rest of us.

[jstock]

Hogwash! Nobody is being "disenfranchised." Every voter in both MI and FL knew that his/her vote would not be counted BEFORE they voted. To turn around and complain about it is essentially saying that we can make up the rules as we go along. Kind of like the Bush Administration, isn't it? I know that each and every Michigander and Floridian knew the rules before they voted because I knew the rules, and I live in a state far from either of them. Dean and the DNC had to do what they did, in order to insure that other states wouldn't try and jump ahead too. We must not behave like a Bushie; we must honor the rules.

[WASanford]

But making up the rules as we went along IS EXACTLEY WHAT HAPPENED! Hey: I've got an idea! Let's take away two of the states Obama won. The ones with the largest number of delegates. How happy would you be about that. Then realize how dissatisfied you would be if that had actually happened to you. Maybe then ytou'll see how unfair this is.
Democrats should not be frightened by democracy!

[ntmessage]

The DNC must address legally held elections that they do not recognize. The DNC is ceding major issues that the Dems dominate against the Pubs like voter suppression, corruption and hypocrisy.

It does not matter who did what or who is right. McCain is going to bat for those states and voters and the Dems will cede FL and MI not only now, but also for the future. In addition, the DNC did not punish NH when they moved their primary and asked candidates to remove their names from MI.

I understand about the rules, but there are also rules in the general election Electoral College and those matter. Ceding MI and FL means kissing good bye fully 16% (that is 1/6th) of the total amount of votes needed to win the Presidency. How can we be so short sighted? How can the DNC leaders justify what they are doing to the party?

[knerd]

I am wondering if anyone can shed light on the fact that Howard Dean intially said they knew the rules, they knew the consequences if they moved the primary, and the seating of delegates mess is the natural consequences of conscious choices.

If that is true, what has happened in the meantime? Has Dean been strong-armed by the Clinton wing of the party or is there something else going on here?

[vippy]

Florida caused Bush to win and it will cause Hillary to get ahead. This was thought out by the
parties involved, they knew what they were doing.

[BrooklynLager]

Florida's not enough to get Hillary ahead. Hillary cannot possibly win the nomination. If we seat the Florida delegation now, all it would do was move Hillary Clinton's nomination back into the realm of "possible, but extremely unlikely".

[Kally]

I have filed a lawsuit to stop revoting and to count the votes cast. It is not fair that the people who voted are being dis-enfranchised. The officials who started this mess should be the ones who are held accountable not the people.

[mrJJ]

Are you implying that the voters in those 2 states did NOT know that they would have no delegates seated if they continued on their course of changing their primary dates? I think 30 days to reconsider was ample enough time.

DNC Strips Florida Of 2008 Delegates
No Convention Slots Unless Later Primary Is Set

Sunday, August 26, 2007; Page A01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275.html?hpid=topnews

Judge OKs DNC sanctions over Fla. primary

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-05-florida-primary_N.htm

[SickOfSpin]

mrJJ--You are ABSOLUTELY right--Those of us in Michgian absolutely did know that our delegates would not be seated, therefore our votes would not count. Hillary's vote count is an absolute joke--Barack Obama's name wasn't even on the ticket AND how many thousands just stayed home, not feeling very fulfilled voting "uncommitted" (the only choice we were given--we could not write in Barack's name and have it count). It's time the DNC just puts down the hammer and says, "You were notified well in advance of your moving the date of your primary and you still moved it anyway, knowing what the consequence would be..." Get over it Hillary. You once agreed...until you started losing.

[Mover]

"Are you implying that the voters in those 2 states did NOT know that they would have no delegates seated if they continued on their course of changing their primary dates?"

Yes and no.

It could have been that they believed that the DNC, lead by King Howard, did not have the legal ability to deny millions of voters their rights. After all, Florida Democrats aren't very bright. (See Broward County November 2000)

Or it could have been that King Howard was instructed to do so by big dollar contributors without regard to the consequences, the little people or the country.

Then, maybe it is because of the top down, 'I know what is best for you', totalitarian Democratic Party Leadership.

Remember, while King Howard was busy trying to deny Florida and Michigan their voting rights, the candidates were going along with this illegal activity. If they lose electors because of it, they only have themselves and their hubris to blame.

[Mover]

Two things:

1. The judge apparently did not base his decision in law, but rather, on his own opinion. Quoting the article in your Wash post article:

"The ruling lets stand the national party's sanctions against the state that strips Florida of its entire delegation to the Democratic presidential nominating convention next year. Hinkle said to rule otherwise would invite a 50 state "free-for-all" of earlier primary dates."

Voting is supposed to be "free"for all., heh heh

Then there's the loser, Sen. Bill Nelson, who just gives in and allows his party to punish the people he supposedly represents.

2. The case has been elevated to the 11th circuit court.
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/DiMaiov.DemocraticNationalCommittee.php

There should be a lesson in this for Democratic voters. Too bad that most will miss it.

[mrJJ]

BTW... those official that caused the mess.... They happen to be DLC members of YOUR party.

[Argoth]

Sure, the officials are to blame, that much I can agree with you. However, to count the votes that were cast in a primary that was not a contest gives an unfair advantage. Think of all the people that will be disenfranchised because they didn't vote because it wasn't going to count. If you can take these points and still rule that the delegates should be seated "as is" you obviously only care about your candidate winning at any cost and not about a fair democratic process.

[WASanford]

I just can't see where you can see any unfair advantage. ALL of the candidates were on the ballot. NONE of them campaigned in Florida. The only thing that you think is unfair is that Hillary won the majority of that vote.

What's really unfair is to disenfranchise those voters through no fault of their own and insist that rules are the rules even when the party pulled them out of Howard Dean's butt. How many general elections do we have to lose in Florida before we learn our lesson?

[BrooklynLager]

exactly!

[ntmessage]

Re voting with different candidates, different time and different momentum means that the will of the people at that point in time are still being disenfranchised. Even re voting as a potential solution changes the dynamics of the election. The best solution is to seat as voted for the most legitimacy. Remember the states held the elections as they have every right to do.

The DNC was out of bounds with this decision from the start and they are 100% to blame not the states.

[fullkelly]

Clinton wins hands down. The citizens of Florida and Michigan have spoken through their ballots. The only way any citizen can lose that right is if a citizen is convicted of a felony that strips their citizenship rights. NO IFS AND OR BUTS. SEAT THE DELEGATES NOW.

[mrJJ]

Toss a coin... you'd be better off... split the delegates 50/50 or follow the rules your candidates originally agreed to abide by. Anything else and your party splits in November...

I have no dog in your fight...

Wish you all luck in November.

[JimR]

Even though only Clinton's name appeared on the ballot? Yeah, that sounds fair.

If Florida and Michigan wanted their votes to count, they could have FOLLOWED THE RULES for setting primary dates.

[ntmessage]

Please get your facts straight.

This means four Democratic candidates are still on the Michigan ballot: U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton D-N.Y.), U.S. Sen. Christopher Dodd (D-Conn.), U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich and U.S. Sen. Mike Gravel (D-Ala.).

[SickOfSpin]

Actually, JimR, the voters in Michigan did want their votes to count, but the party leaders were ignoring what they had been told the consequence would be to move the primary...Why were they so insistent? Well, let's start with Governor Granholm, and all of the other Michigan Democratic Party leaders who support Hillary Clinton. She was running hot on name recognition and the earlier the voting began, the better for her--name recognition vs. actually having to campaign and present herself and her platform...it was painfully transparent to those of us who indeed got cheated out of our votes due to vested interests of our Michigan party leaders...

[Mover]

The fact that Obama's name wasn't on the ballot was his doing. He has only himself to blame.

Should this guy be President? He can't even manage his own candidacy.

The DNC "rules" are illegal.

[mrJJ]

Its a fight between the DLC & the DNC. The DLC looks like its going to win the propoganda war against your DNC chairman. It doesnt look like your party members see the actual battle that is going on. Your DNC chairman is smart to continue to be an unbiased referee in this process. Tough spot to be in... But changing the rules that were laid down is going to cause bitter feelings on both sides...

Indies, newbies and crossovers will just wait it out until your collective party fixes your problem.

Wish you luck in November!!

[ARundle]

Mail in votes in Florida? What a joke. They can't even get it right when people have to actually show up and vote in person. I can't even imagine the chaos, fraud and purging of the voter rolls which will occur if a mail in vote occurs. BTW, I am a proud former Floridian but anyone who knows anything about Florida knows that fair voting is not one its greatest accomplishments.

[billrott]

The Super Delegates are pledged to Hillary Clinton. This is just another attempt of Hillary trying to steal the election. Why won't the Democrat Leadership stand up to this tyrant.

[treadway123]

I want people to understand this. we republicans jumped ship because of Mccain. He's a old man with old Idea's. I would never believe he has any idea's to get us out of Iraq. His hate inside himself because his days of a POW is beyond forgiveness to be open and work with certain foreign countrie's. he will divide and conquer, and polarize in washington as much as Hillary Clinton will. we will see no advance ment toward bringing peace to this world-------------only war-----If mccain and Hillary becomes our next president! It's sad that so many Republicans hate this man , but think more of thier party than they do to have enough gut, and common sense to vote for some one alse. while I stand behind Obama, I didn't come to this decision easy after 34 years of being a Republican , and born a woman. This las t thing with Farraro and the Clinton makes me realize I've done the right thing! Mccain has flip floped to get the Core base of the Republican party to simply stand behind him---------other wise he lied about where he stands and believe in to get them to support him! That in itself is sad! Hillary and bill has used the race card------------as has their Supporters. This clearly to polarize and steal votes in ohio and Pennsylvania where raise is still a sore spot! So if Hillary wins the Demacrate nomination-------------the Demacrates lose the white House. If Florida or Michigan steals this election from the American people----------So lose's the Demacratic party for the bid for the white house. It is not the clintons who brought Millions to the polls across this nation-----------it is Mr. Obama! He has brought the Republicans, Independents and Demacrates-young and old to his side. They will turn their backs if Hillary get's the nomonation! pure and simple!

[cynicalismo]

You've turned reason on its head. Fighting to nullify the votes of 2.3 million Floridians and Michiganders is an attempt to steal the election. Opposing the seating of Superdelegates is an attempt to steal the election.

Nero was a tyrant. Caligula was a tyrant. Stalin was a tyrant. Ivan the Terrible was a tyrant. But Hillary? Get a grip. Make an effort not to sound stupid.

[cblcar]

Because they want to win the general election against McCain and know that Hillary is the only one wih the killer instinct needed to get the job done.

Hillary '08