Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

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"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign. Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little ...
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Obama's own words, buried by the media and his robotic followers. You can't argue with words because they do matter.

Quotes from the Audacity of Hope, from the 'Great Unifier" Barack Obama. Want to know him, read his book. Of course, that's asking a bit, isn't it?

From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.­'

From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mothers race.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'

From Dreams of My Father: ; 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 05/17/2008
- StillIRise I'm a Fan of StillIRise 567 fans permalink
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Why are you still posting this? It doesn't serve to support your apparent argument; in fact, it does the contrary. These are positive quotes that serve only to enhance one's positive image of Senator Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 PM on 05/17/2008
- pacats I'm a Fan of pacats 4 fans permalink

I was surprised to learn that 84 year old Nelson Mandela was on the USA Terrorist List. He has always shown strength and character. I am sure the GOP will attach his name to the next ad made to discredit Obama. Dr. KIng is a hero to many people. Malcolm made his peace with his maker. W.E.B.Dubo­is, I was always impressed with his knowledge, skillls and his ability to help people move forward during the turn of the 20th century.
Son of Africa, is pride, same of son of Israel, son of Italy, and so on......
It is nice to see so many people taking an interest in learning about Senator Obama. His heritage is very interesting. As a bi-racial person, it is empowering to realize you come from two distinct backgrounds. Two cultures to learn about, accept, and to teach to your children. Being bi-racial,( half white/half black) also means that whites may not always accept you and that blacks may not always accept you. One of Americans many challenges.

Obama 08.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 05/17/2008
- johnnyjust I'm a Fan of johnnyjust 6 fans permalink

Are we really going to elect a nominee without counting two HUGE states?

They don't matter?????

Has nothing been learned since 2000 and 2004?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 05/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

They knew what they were doing, and what the penalty was. They didn't care.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 05/17/2008

Attention Clinton supporters:

OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.
OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.
OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.

Please take a hard look at him before you decide not to support him because you ran into a vitriolic Obama supporter. I understand if you like Obama less than Clinton, but to pick MCCAIN? REALLY?

That is all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 PM on 05/17/2008
- Daisy1111 I'm a Fan of Daisy1111 8 fans permalink

Too late - the Obama backlash has begun.

I'm in Florida. Obama will never win Florida. So I may as well write-in Hillary.

But I'll tell you what -- if by November the polls show Obama is tied with McCain in Florida, I'll vote for Obama to help push him over.

Fair enough?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 05/17/2008
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In fairness, I don't see how they can ask any more from you. Helping to elect McCain would probably give the Republicans the Supreme Court for the next 30 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:03 PM on 05/17/2008
- storeyy I'm a Fan of storeyy 18 fans permalink
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If you guys cost the dems the presidency with this looney write in thing, guess what? You will be putting the nails in coffin of HRC's political future with the democratic party. She will be a pariah. Her Senate seat in NY will be lost as well. I don't think this is something she will condone

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 PM on 05/17/2008

by all means carry out your idiocy limbaugh groupie, you will be bringing about more deaths to the American Military and when the draft is reinstituted, you better pray hard that none of your loved ones get called up for slaughter - because at this rate, that IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN - recruitment is down, and they are going to have to put in bodies for slaughter to replace the dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 05/17/2008
- Daisy1111 I'm a Fan of Daisy1111 8 fans permalink

Pandering?

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/375230.aspx

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:32 PM on 05/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Normally, I'd say yes.

But since people continue to either actually believe, or more often, choose to believe that Obama is a Muslim; who can blame him?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:38 PM on 05/17/2008
- Daisy1111 I'm a Fan of Daisy1111 8 fans permalink

Rules for write-in votes:

http://www.writehillaryin.com/Home_Page.php

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 05/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Well, writing Hillary in splits the Democratic electorate in half.

Even in blue states, Republican presidential candidates manage 40-45% of the vote in all but a handful of states, so if you split the other 55-60% down the middle, McCain's Electoral College map will probably resemble Ronald Reagan's in 1984,as he may win every state except perhaps for DC, MA, and RI.

As Democratic as the 111th Congress is likely to be, having a Republican president to balance it out would probably be the safest outcome. So I highly recommend writing Hillary in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 05/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Of course, if rogue Hillary supporters (even only with Hillary's tacit approval) split the Democratic vote and contribute to Republican retention of the White House for another four years (which is pretty much a sure thing in a three way race), her career in the Democratic party will be finished.

She'll never have a prayer of getting the 2012 Democratic nomination. She'll probably lose her Senate seat that year as well.

So, I really, really recommend writing Hillary in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 PM on 05/17/2008

carry out your idiocy limbaugh groupie, you will be bringing about more deaths to the American Military and when the draft is reinstituted, you better pray hard that none of your loved ones get called up for slaughter - because at this rate, that IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN - recruitment is down, and they are going to have to put in bodies for slaughter to replace the dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 PM on 05/17/2008

Clinton Will Win The Nomination ..... Michigan & Florida Will Be Key To Her Victory !!!
Do The Reserch !!!! ..... Yes The Math Is In her favor !!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 PM on 05/17/2008
- Aleka4 I'm a Fan of Aleka4 47 fans permalink

LOL. You're kidding, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 05/17/2008

I Am Not Kidding ..... Research It !!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 05/17/2008
- RThM I'm a Fan of RThM 4 fans permalink

It's sad.But the troll is serious. That's the plight of trolls. Can't think. Can't count. Can only grunt nonsense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/17/2008
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And that old warhorse, new math, has been replaced by the avant garde imaginary math!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 PM on 05/17/2008

It's The Truth !!! Research It !!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 05/17/2008
- izAriver I'm a Fan of izAriver 27 fans permalink

Why don't you do us all a favor and show us your work, like you have to do in any math class I've ever been in. Either that or provide links. After all, nothings impossible. Doug Flutie did complete that Hail Mary. bushit and "shoot 'em in the face" cheney have apologized once...oh wait, I guess some things aren't possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 PM on 05/17/2008

Look At The Count ..... Research It .....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 05/17/2008

I did the math Beastyboy. I added and subtracted all the numbers, number of delegates, number of popular votes, numbers of states left, etc., etc, etc. Then I multiplied it and divided it. Turned it all into and algebraic equation, then took the first and second derivitives. Then I intigrated it back into the original equation just to make sure.
Guess what Beasty. There ain't no friggen way she can win!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 05/17/2008

Check Again .... Reseach It .....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 05/17/2008

Look, she had a good run. She was a fierce competitor, but she lost. She showed a lot of heart, but the bottom line is that she was not only running against Sen. Obama… she was also running against a historic movement.

We need to mend the rift between us… Sure there are differences between Hillary and Barack, but they pale in comparison to McCain.

This election is too important… We have too much to lose.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 PM on 05/17/2008

They don't seem to care about our country and she is incouraging it big time!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 05/17/2008
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It seems VERY unlikely that the rules committee will seat either delegation 'as is', but will more likely now make each a state of 'half-vote' delegates as are the U.S. voting territories. Because the 'as is' seating will no longer really help Hillary anyway, giving these states a free-pass with no penalty could cause half of ALL 2012 primaries and caucuses to be scheduled before January 1, in 2011, as each state tries grabbing for a bit more relevancy. THAT would be asking for serious trouble.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 AM on 05/17/2008
- JackND I'm a Fan of JackND 28 fans permalink

Of course that's precisely the motivation for penalizing them in the first place.

And when Hillary Clinton speaks of "Michigan and Florida haven't been resolved", she of course means resolved to her satisfaction, which is nothing less than being fully counted as is.

Which was a nonstarter from the beginning.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 05/17/2008
- Chillinout I'm a Fan of Chillinout 125 fans permalink
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Hillary is playing nice in Oregon. She was making a speech and she pointed out that GW was in Saudi Arabia asking the Saudis to increase their oil production, actually the exact quote was that GW was over there begging for more oil. She then said this was because GW has no energy policy. Then she was asked about Obama's lead and she ignored the question and instead made the case for herself to be the nominee without ever mentioning Obama. She is attacking GW and McCain instead of Obama. I think it is time to give the lady a break and see how she acts over the next few weeks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 AM on 05/17/2008
- Aleka4 I'm a Fan of Aleka4 47 fans permalink

Oh that is good news! It is what she whould have been doing ever since it because extremely improbable for her to win - teaming with the democrats to attack the republicans, instead of teaming with the republicans to attack the democrat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 05/17/2008
- storeyy I'm a Fan of storeyy 18 fans permalink
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That was until she started talking about her having the popular vote and how people should come out for her in large number to show the MSM that she can't be counted out. She says a few things about how she won in WV when she was counted out. Some more about winning the nomination . She's not letting up. don't be fooled.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:39 PM on 05/17/2008

I truly believe that in the coming weeks, we will again see the Hillary Clinton that I once admired and I can't wait! I know she's disappointed in not being chosen as the Dem. nominee, but there's still so much that she can do for the party and I hope that she'll be part of the Obama administra­tion.....s­o, welcome back to the old Hillary...­.we've missed you!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:12 AM on 05/17/2008
- riverhouse I'm a Fan of riverhouse 48 fans permalink

Could we please stop responding to trolls like gorillaman and ginnypoo? Just ignore them. Posts in response to them is just wasting time and space, and it really detracts from the quality of the blog. Please spare us the wade through the muck and help discourage them from their nonsense postings.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:52 AM on 05/17/2008
- pleeezzze I'm a Fan of pleeezzze 6 fans permalink

Why ?? would that give you and your Obama pals more room to tell us all those LIES and make all those False charges against Clintons ?
How do you suppose you could enjoy your Obama site if all you got going for you is " your love for Obama" ?
Everyone is already aware of your (inane) idolization of Saint Obama .

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:05 AM on 05/17/2008
- abigail1 I'm a Fan of abigail1 34 fans permalink

what lies? and be specific. and what false charges about the clintons?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 AM on 05/17/2008
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pleeezzze.­..people aren't stupid around here. you've got educated Obama supporters you're dealing with. Give us FACTS. Tell us the false charges against Clinton. Name one.

What's particularly interesting is HRC would NOT survive a general election with all the scandals that HAVE NOT yet been reported to the MSM. So give it up.

Also, I respect and admire Obama. He's not my idol. He DOES appeal to the America I want to have. Just like your leader HRC, with all her lies, manipulations and trickery, appeals to you.

TRY AGAIN.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:49 AM on 05/17/2008
- Chillinout I'm a Fan of Chillinout 125 fans permalink
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I try to, though I don't always know who they are. You are right it is a waste of time and energy since they have no intention to engage in a discussion.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:16 AM on 05/17/2008
- izAriver I'm a Fan of izAriver 27 fans permalink

Good idea. There are others that should be added to the list as well. They have every right to their opinion but it's pointless to talk to someone who has no interest in a substantive conversation or conversation at all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 PM on 05/17/2008
- olivia I'm a Fan of olivia 96 fans permalink

Good idea. Why haven't they been banned yet? I thought posting the same thing over and over was considered spam and broke the rules. I got banned for less.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 05/17/2008
- abby4ever I'm a Fan of abby4ever 240 fans permalink
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There's an article on the home page of Politico about Hillary lashing out at the media for counting her out. What she is doing is clever: going over the heads of the MSM to appeal to the voters---as the underdog (and victim of an unfair press). Apparently there's a new ad, too, along those same lines. Some things never die.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:08 AM on 05/17/2008
- abigail1 I'm a Fan of abigail1 34 fans permalink

maybe it is clever but there are just not enough voters left to give her the nomination even if they are somehow convinced that Hillary Clinton who considered her nomination inevitable is the underdog.

Ever heard of a death rattle?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 AM on 05/17/2008
- Chillinout I'm a Fan of Chillinout 125 fans permalink
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According to most of the pundits, she would have to get at least 65% of the remaining delegates and seriously, that isn't going to happen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 AM on 05/17/2008
- Aleka4 I'm a Fan of Aleka4 47 fans permalink

I just read that - very interesting. I don't know how she thinks it will help her, but at least she's not attacking Obama for a change.

Though I don't know why she has to perpetuate myths about votes not counting. The nominee is cinched long before every vote is cast most of the time.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 05/17/2008

Hillary...­....why don't you do what is best for the country and go home. Do not keep stirring the pot of shit...reg­ardless of what Bill tells you. A pot of shit can't yield you anything that is good.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 AM on 05/17/2008

when it involves the Clintons I call it BILLSHIT

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 AM on 05/17/2008
- pleeezzze I'm a Fan of pleeezzze 6 fans permalink

watchingth­ings....I'­m so glad to see that you Obama Idiots have seen the light !

Obama, does Not need anyone (about 50%) who voted for Hillary to get the election . (did I get that right ? Yes I did .) Good ,because you and your dirty mouthed friends along with your Idol Obama cannot have our Votes .

So Stuff It .

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 AM on 05/17/2008
- abigail1 I'm a Fan of abigail1 34 fans permalink

speak only for yourself as you cannot possibly speak for all Clinton supporters, vast majority of whom will vote for Obama because they actually believe in the things Hillary Clinton does and therefore cannot accept a President McCain.
I hope that once you are done eating your sour grapes that you will come around too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:24 AM on 05/17/2008

You know....I thought at one point that I wouldn't be able to vote for Hillary if she was the nominee, but I was wrong.....­because I know that she would do a much better job than any Republican could even think about doing! I know she's disappointed right now & you are too! I understand that, but I hope at some point that the disappointment that you feel, will be replaced with the knowledge that a Democrat is needed in the White House to fix the massive problems that the Republicans have created and I hope that you'll join us to reinvent America and make it better than ever!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 AM on 05/17/2008
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Keep your vote. :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 AM on 05/17/2008
- Aleka4 I'm a Fan of Aleka4 47 fans permalink

What are you, 12?

Leave the discussions to the grownups please. Calling everyone who disagrees with you an idiot only shows that you lack the maturity to discuss anything. Now give the keyboard back to your mom.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:06 PM on 05/17/2008

Limbaugh groupies give themselves away with their childish rants. "stuff it" - how very GOP of you

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 PM on 05/17/2008
- OtayPanky I'm a Fan of OtayPanky 66 fans permalink
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This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

===

Indeed.

And Hillary is an ex-candidate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 AM on 05/17/2008

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise..­.surprise and fear...fea­r and surprise..­..

Our two weapons are fear and surprise..­.and ruthless efficiency­....

Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency­...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....

Our *four*...n­o... *Amongst* our weapons...­. Amongst our weaponry..­.are such elements as fear, surprise..­.. I'll come in again."

And so will Hillary Clinton.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 AM on 05/17/2008
- eurydice I'm a Fan of eurydice 10 fans permalink

M. Scott Peck, in "The People of the Lie", gives some identifying characteristics for evil persons. Discussed below are Scott Peck's views.
Evil is described by Peck as "militant ignorance". In this it is close to the original Judeo-Christian concept of "sin" as a consistent process that leads to failure to reach one's true goals.
An evil person:
Projects his or her evils and sins onto others and tries to remove them from others
Maintains a high level of respectability and lies incessantly in order to do so
Is consistent in his or her sins. Evil persons are characterized not so much by the magnitude of their sins, but by their consistency
Is unable to think from other people's viewpoints.
Most evil people realize the evil deep within themselves but are unable to tolerate the pain of introspection or admit to themselves that they are evil. Thus, they constantly run away from their evil by putting themselves in a position of moral superiority and putting the locus of evil on others.

Ergo, by his definition, Hillary Clinton is Evil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

"Ergo, by his definition, Hillary Clinton is Evil."

lol. How pathetic. Go cry in your kool-aid, dopey.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 PM on 05/16/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 332 fans permalink
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Do you ever post counter-arguments instead of vitriol?
Are you even capable of that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:08 AM on 05/17/2008
- izAriver I'm a Fan of izAriver 27 fans permalink

You must be the person in the group that just says shitty things to everyone else so they can feel better about themselves, the person everyone else feels sorry for because they're so excruciatingly pitiful.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:15 AM on 05/17/2008

you mean tears of joy cause the moronic MRS Clinton is just about over?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 AM on 05/17/2008

Hillary Clinton is not evil....I think that she just believed that she had the best route to the presidency, and that Senator Obama would be "swiftboated" by the Republicans and that he may not be able to fight that battle! I think that he's done surprisingly well already and he'll get better as time goes on....he's a fast learner! I also think that Hillary has many qualities that can be extremely effective for the General campaign and I also believe that Senator Obama should include her into his administra­tion.....w­e need effective people to run the government, since the Republicans have run it into the ground!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 AM on 05/17/2008
- verlaine I'm a Fan of verlaine 4 fans permalink

Kiga and Dajay,
Elizabeth Kübler-Ross' "On Death and Dying" which describes the "5 stages of grief" might be useful to you after Obama officially secures the nomination. Obama isn't perfect or flawless but Hillary's dirty laundry outweighs his by a few megatons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 PM on 05/16/2008
- dajay I'm a Fan of dajay 16 fans permalink

verlaine: Oooh, you actually read?

Wow. I am impressed.

Well I will certainly take the advice from the likes of a person like you.

But let me be bold enough to give you some as well. I suggest purchasing that book and saving if for November 5, when your candidate doesn't wake up as President.

I think you are probably just unstable enough to need it.

Have a good night.
t

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:31 PM on 05/16/2008
- ChiGuy I'm a Fan of ChiGuy 332 fans permalink
photo

So do her dirty tricks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 05/16/2008
- pleeezzze I'm a Fan of pleeezzze 6 fans permalink

verlaine..­.I know Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, and if you truly did ,you could not possibly say such gross crap about Clinton while boosting you idol !
As with all Obamans, you obviously see only what you wish to see,which in its self makes you Blind to Truth !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 05/17/2008
- Merin I'm a Fan of Merin 3 fans permalink

You know -

pointing out that someone is relying on the racist views of voters -

or that some voters openly state racists reasons for their voting -

is not, in itself, racist, right?

That being racist is believing that one race is better than another? A racists attacks and ridicules another race, you do understand that?

Because calling someone out for race-baiting ("I have the support of hard-working white Americans" for example) and pointing out people for having racial and/or religious bias ("I won't vote for Obama because he's a muslim - he has to be a muslim, he's black" for example) are NOT symptoms of being racist.

A person who points out those who are being racist is working AGAINST racism.

Just so we're clear.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 05/16/2008

Oh, now you've gone and spoiled all the fun the Obama campaign has when it is calling people racist.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:37 PM on 05/16/2008
- izAriver I'm a Fan of izAriver 27 fans permalink

The Obama campaign isn't calling people racist. They've identified things that have been said as racist. The right-wing extremist mass media, overly enthusiastic supporters and posers like you are calling people racists. Are you a racist?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 AM on 05/17/2008
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