Texas Appeals Polygamist Sect Ruling

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MICHELLE ROBERTS | May 23, 2008 07:59 PM EST | AP

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Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints mothers Marie Steed, left, and Sarah Barlow smile as the leave the Tom Green county courthouse after a ruling in their favor in San Angelo, Texas, Thursday, May 22, 2008. An Austin, Texas appeals court ruled that the state had no cause to take their children. (AP Photo/LM Otero)

SAN ANGELO, Texas — State child welfare authorities on Friday appealed a stinging court ruling that said their seizure of more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch was unjustified, but they also agreed to reunite 12 children with their parents while the case moves on.

The agreement narrowly specifies 12 children, some of whose parents had filed a motion with a state district court in San Antonio for their release from state foster care.

Lori Jessop cried when she and her husband, Joseph, were reunited with their daughter and two sons.

"The little boy just grabbed for his daddy," when CPS workers handed him over, said their attorney Rene Haas.

Child Protective Services spokesman Patrick Crimmins declined to comment on the agreement.

CPS agreed to allow the parents to live with their children in the San Antonio area under state supervision, said Teresa Kelly, a spokeswoman for Haas. The families cannot return to the Yearning For Zion ranch, where they lived before the raid.

Aside from mothers staying with their infants in foster care, no other parents from the west Texas ranch have been allowed to stay with their children.

CPS's case for removing all children from the ranch was thrown into doubt Thursday when the Third Court of Appeals ordered a lower-court judge to rescind her decision giving the state custody of more than 100 of the children. The ruling was broad enough to cover nearly every child swept up in the April raid on the ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

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CPS said in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court that the appeals court was wrong to say that the vast majority of children at the ranch did not face the sort of extreme danger state law requires for them to be removed without a court order. The agency cited evidence it said showed that the church pushed teenage girls into spiritual marriages with older men.

"This case is about adult men commanding sex from underage children; about women knowingly condoning and allowing sexual abuse of underage children; about the need for the department to take action under difficult, time-sensitive and unprecedented circumstances," the state agency said in its appeal.

The state asked to keep the children in foster care while the case is reviewed.

The limited agreement CPS offered covers 12 children who belong to three families.

Lori and Joseph Jessop had been scheduled to appear in Bexar County district court on their motion to release their three children _ ages 4, 2 and 1 _ but CPS offered the agreement instead, Kelly said.

Similar agreements in the near future are unlikely; the couple filed their motion in a different court than the other families.

State officials said in their Supreme Court filing that it would be impossible to return all children covered in Thursday's ruling because they have not determined which children belong to which parents, and DNA tests were incomplete. The appeals court ruling technically applies only to the 38 mothers who filed the complaint.

In justifying their removal of the children from the ranch, Child Protective Services cited as "documented" sexual abuse a statement from a girl who said she knew a 16-year-old who is married with a 5-month-old baby; and the statement from another girl that "Uncle Merrill" decides who and when she will marry. The state also cited five underage pregnant girls.

Authorities also said the appeals court overstepped in its ruling because a lower court had discretion to rule in the custody case.

Attorneys for the parents whose case is under high-court consideration urged the justices to reject the state's appeal, saying their children "are being subjected to continuing, irreparable harm every day that they are separated from their parents."

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, said the appeal was no surprise "although one would hope that at some point they would realize the futility."

The parents were prepared for an extended legal battle, he said.

"They're hopeful to get on with their lives, but in reality, they understand," he said.

The agency accused parents of being uncooperative and not providing proper identification _ though in dozens of individual custody hearings this week, parents provided state-issued birth certificates. Other sect members mistakenly believed to be minors also provided drivers' licenses as proof of their age.

The Third Court of Appeals said the state acted hastily.

"Even if one views the FLDS belief system as creating a danger of sexual abuse by grooming boys to be perpetrators of sexual abuse and raising girls to be victims of sexual abuse ... there is no evidence that this danger is 'immediate' or 'urgent,'" the court said.

"Evidence that children raised in this particular environment may someday have their physical health and safety threatened is not evidence that the danger is imminent enough to warrant invoking the extreme measure of immediate removal," the court said.

The children were taken into custody more than six weeks ago after someone called a hot line claiming to be a pregnant, abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

Five judges in San Angelo, about 40 miles north of Eldorado, had been holding hearings on what the parents must do to regain custody when the appeals decision was issued. Those hearings were suspended after Thursday's ruling.

The custody case has been chaotic from the beginning. During the first round of hearings, held two weeks after the April 3 raid, hundreds of lawyers crammed into a courtroom and nearby auditorium, queuing up to voice objections or ask questions on behalf of the mothers, who were dressed in trademark prairie dresses and braided hair.

The state conceded this week that at least 15 of the 31 mothers being held in foster care as minors were actually adults; one is 27.

The state has struggled for weeks to establish the identities of the children and sort out their tangled family relationships. The youngsters are in foster homes all over the state, with some brothers or sisters separated by as much as 600 miles.

___

Associated Press writer Jim Vertuno contributed to this report from Austin.

SAN ANGELO, Texas — State child welfare authorities on Friday appealed a stinging court ruling that said their seizure of more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch was unjustified, b...
SAN ANGELO, Texas — State child welfare authorities on Friday appealed a stinging court ruling that said their seizure of more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch was unjustified, b...
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- dutchess2 I'm a Fan of dutchess2 17 fans permalink

FLDS parents believe their chldren are proper sacrifice to get older men into heaven.

They are unwilling and unable to protect them from the edicts of their Prophet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:55 PM on 05/24/2008
- KarateKid I'm a Fan of KarateKid 331 fans permalink
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My, my, look at all these "good" Christians spouting their hate, spreading all those lies. Some Christians you are.

Remember the basic tenet behind the first settlers in No. America: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. The Puritans came here after being persecuted in England and Holland, to find a place where they could practice their religion in freedom. They risked their lives, uprooted from a place they all grew up in, to come here to found this country.

But, they were intolerant, too. The Salem witch hunts attest to that. I can see that is still going on in this country, in the 21st century.

What hypocrites all of you are. As far as I'm concerned, Reverend Hagee and his fanatical hate is a much worse "religion". You don't see FLDS spouting hate like Hagee and Parsley.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 05/24/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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I don't think the Puritans left Europe so they could rape their children.
But thanks for playing!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 05/25/2008
- Trueheart I'm a Fan of Trueheart 45 fans permalink
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The Salem witch hysteria is a complicated piece of history. It's partly about how the public can be manipulated by leaders who play into their fears of the unknown. Just remember that there were plenty of people in Old Salem (now Danvers, Massachusetts) who did not support the persecution, and in the end, their side won out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:31 AM on 05/25/2008
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Well, this is a mess.
But it is Texas - so I really don't know who to believe,
they have a bad track record.

As for "teaching girls to be subservient to men",
this sounds almost identical to some of
McCain's (not?) buddy R. Parsley's views on
marriage in his books.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 05/24/2008
- Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla 30 fans permalink

This is a good story on the boys expelled from the other compounds and how their mothers went along with it. Gotta get rid of the young males if you're going to have three wives.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 05/23/2008
- goodog I'm a Fan of goodog 130 fans permalink
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So far, none of the hysterical stories have held up under scrutiny applied to evidence in a court of law.

Rumor, media frenzy, suspicion, and mob-panic are not the same as evidence. And that's why the Texas court ruled in favor of these parents more than a month and a half after their children were taken away.

That's exactly what this ruling is about. The state could NOT show cause, even after so long.

You can't railroad someone without evidence, just because the adrenaline rush you get from your self-righteousness blinds you to Constitutional principles.

All the hysterical accusations so far have turned out to be false.

Your "facts" aren't credible at this point, so don't expect to be taken seriously.

The pitchfork crowd have made fools of themselves, and lost their battle against the Constitution.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:56 PM on 05/23/2008
- Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla 30 fans permalink

Just read the link. You would agree that something has to give when a man has three wives?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:24 PM on 05/23/2008
- avraamjack I'm a Fan of avraamjack 21 fans permalink
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.
It is a good thing these people had recourse to a court of law.
.
Here in the DC Metro area, where gang stalkers rule, it does not take too many well compensated whisperers to get you poisoned ( while the police pretend not to notice ).
.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22gang+stalking%22
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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You might talk to Michelle Benward about her work trying to help the "lost boys" before you go claiming that none of this is happening.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,695196071,00.html
http://www.newfrontiersforfamilies.org/bluffhouse.asp

And if you think there's no evidence that has held up in court, why is their leader, Warren Jeffs, in prison? Making a 14 year old girl marry her cousin, rape of a minor? Jeffs was convicted and now she's speaking out and raising a fund to help other victims get away from the group.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-09-24-polygamist-trial_N.htm

Is that what you mean by false, hysterical accusations?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:41 PM on 05/24/2008
- dutchess2 I'm a Fan of dutchess2 17 fans permalink

At the bottom of this article, the FLDS atty Rod Parker (who was also Warren Jeff's atty) said there were five or six underage pregnant girls, and some who had given birth before the age of consent...

That is an admission.


http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/655790.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 AM on 05/25/2008
- bujeeboo I'm a Fan of bujeeboo 6 fans permalink

There is abuse, and then there is abuse. This group has a high incidence of fumarase deficiency (causing a sever form of mental retardation) from inbreeding between the same 2 families since 1930. It really is a tragedy what these people have done to themselves and their children.

I am losing hope that anything will ever happen to help educate people on what this genetic experiment for religious purposes has caused.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:46 PM on 05/23/2008
- goodog I'm a Fan of goodog 130 fans permalink
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The fact are these:

5 out of 400 children is 1.25% of the community.

That's less than half of the 3.0% low average for child sexual abuse in the general public.

These children are at greater risk for sexual abuse in foster care than they are with their parents.

These are indeed weird and arguably creepy people, but if the state of Texas can't even demonstrate a risk of sexual abuse any greater than half the rate of the real world, after more than a month and a half already, then they have no business taking ALL of the children from ALL of their parents without adequate due cause.

This is a low moment for a Constitutional democracy and an obvious witch-hunt founded on rural histrionics and Podunk panic.

It's nothing but two sectarian, fundamentalist groups in rural Texas acting on pent-up suspicion and philosophical grievance.

In the first news video of the raid, I saw First Baptist Church buses going in to the LDS compound to get those kids.

Imagine if the buses of a local mosque were used to round your kids up and take them away.

There's more going on here than law enforcement. Local investigative reporting would probably come up with an amazing story of superstitious suspicion and inter-religious culture war.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:47 PM on 05/23/2008
- Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla 30 fans permalink

And if sexual abuse is found in the general public, children are removed and it is prosecuted. You seem to have some level at which it is acceptable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 PM on 05/23/2008
- dutchess2 I'm a Fan of dutchess2 17 fans permalink

Yes, message boards are flooded with LDS posters claiming this is a Baptist plot.

The FLDS have been doing wierd things for 100 years.... state of Utah with perponderance of LDS members have refused to prosecute their lawbreaking and welfare fraud
(which they call bleeding the beast because they hate tax payers so much) until now they are a blight on humanity.

Their Prophet rules with an iron hand even from his prison cell, what with his reassignments, excommunications, banishments, and forcing little girls to shack up with old men to help get the old men into heaven.

Defend this if you can.


http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9361767?source=rv

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 05/25/2008
- landmine I'm a Fan of landmine 4 fans permalink

There is no abuse, no violation of law until it has been proven in court.
Newspapers and TV don't determine guilt.
However, it does make up the minds of those who don't know our laws. Those who rush to judgement are as unthinking as a mob.
Our constitution is a protection for all.

On the bright side, at least they didn't all burn to death as they did in Waco, Texas.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:08 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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Tell that to all those pregnant girls and the underage boys who are abandoned. The Constitution is supposed to protect them too!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:11 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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These over 450 children were not "abandoned­." They were forcibly removed from their own homes by people with guns, acting contrary to the laws of their own State.

And no one will help this situation by pouring more emotional gas on it.

Texas should have followed their own laws, conducted individual investigations to actually determine who was and was not guilty before imposing punishments on everyone, and treated these people like they were human beings, not cattle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:27 PM on 05/23/2008
- Littledog I'm a Fan of Littledog 4 fans permalink

Are the judges 54 year old men who like little girls or what? Sending these little girls and boys back to be raped by old men in the name of "religion" and in a temple no less is as shameful as what goes on in the Middle East. Keep 'em safe, Texas! Do not condone the rape of children, boys or girls.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:26 PM on 05/23/2008

I am afraid we still live in America, where you are innocent until proven guilty. If you want to convict someone by what you've seen on TV, maybe you need to go live in the Middle East. Maybe they were abused. Maybe they weren't. The point is, there are going to be a lot of those kids that went into CPS virgins that will come back to their parents raped, and where will you be then? Watching TV, I bet, but you won't care because Lost is on tonight.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:15 PM on 05/23/2008
- Radarman I'm a Fan of Radarman 5 fans permalink
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Anyone want to place odds on:
1. A time will come when the court will say Texas DCFS blew it and they must return those children to their parents.
2. DCFS will not be able to find all 450 children, at least 4 of them will have disappeared into the void.
3. While under care of the state at least 5 of the children will have been sexually abused by their foster caregiver or by someone else in that household. Look at the Florida cases a few years back.
4. That no news agency will mention that under the AFSA act Texas receives between four and five thousand dollars for each child adopted out of DCFS and that DCFS Supervisors receive promotion points for children placed.

To paraphrase, "What we have here is a great crop of young white children, who are quiet, polite and well trained. I'll bet there are some DCFS folks just itching to get them placed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:51 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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Radarman: Sadly, I expect you are right on target, and would only add this:

If we were to compare the safety of these 450 and children in their own homes, compared to their safety in any form of state custody or state run housing, be it a foster home, public housing project, or juvenile detention center, most of these 450 children would be far safer in their own homes among people that actually love these children, even if the majority doesn't like their religious beliefs.

We have people pretending like child abuse, teen pregnancy, etc., are unique to this group, rather than a vile blight that affects our entire society at about the same rate of occurance.

For the time being, Texas appears to have found a convenient "scape goat" for their sins.

Problem is, even after they throw the goat over the cliff, their own sins remain in this case.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:11 PM on 05/23/2008
- jubo I'm a Fan of jubo 6 fans permalink
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I thank Fate I was born far away from these people.

We keyboard-armed voyeurs agree freedom of madness sucks, but frankly, is there really a solution?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 PM on 05/23/2008
- tbone99 I'm a Fan of tbone99 93 fans permalink

Texas foster care is notoriously bad,.Last year there was an expose of how foster children were routinely sleeping in the offices of caseworkers, for lack of homes.Ther­e should be a temporary solution where the mothers are placed in housing with their kids while recieving child education classes., until the case gets settled.I'­m sure the mothers would agree and it might make open them up to other possibilites .Don't forget these women have been brought up under the same abusive systeMm that we deem bad for children.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 PM on 05/23/2008
- Elmo I'm a Fan of Elmo permalink

the government always appeals. it ain't their money.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 05/23/2008
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Good for Texas! Until it is established that they kids are not being abuse either mentally or physically they should not be returned to this environment. I also think that Texas should go after them for welfare fraud if they are receiving any benefits from the state. There is something deeply disturbing about this group. It's better to be safe than sorry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:29 PM on 05/23/2008
- landmine I'm a Fan of landmine 4 fans permalink

Sorry, innocent until proven guilty. What country do you think you live in?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:09 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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If your 14 year old daughter was staying there and you found out she was pregnant, would you fight to have her returned there or would you want her out immediately?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:23 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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How is returning pregnant children to their abusers being safe than sorry?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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"There is something deeply disturbing about this group. It's better to be safe than sorry."

Statements like that were the match that lit the fire of every genecide in history.

Honestly Lineman, you scare me far more than these people do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:32 PM on 05/23/2008

Bigotry in any form is appalling, but when it is acted upon by government officials it has the potential to undermine our way of life. I don't agree with the FLDS religion and teachings, but if they don't have religious freedom then none of us do. Our government is under a Constitutional obligation to act in an agnostic fashion towards religion. Anything less is an erosion of our Civil Rights.

I hope that the Texas authorities do the right thing and act quickly to get these kids back to their families. Unfortunately, I don't expect this will be the case.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 05/23/2008

When serving up teenage girls to old men for sex is a religion, then mankind has lost sight of what religion is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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Most of the commentators on this subject, on news reports and otherwise, have been over flowing with their own emotional feelings on this mess in Texas, and pretty clear about their contempt for these people, but otherwise shockingly uninformed.

You should read the court's opinion:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/22/texas.court.pdf

It's pretty clear that this group is politically unpopular at best, and obviously hated by many.

But that's why we have a Bill of Rights in our Constitution, to protect hated minorities from abuse by the majority in the form of government power.

Texas is engaged in a shocking abuse of power, that is doing serious mental and emotional harm to these children and their families, and further, Texas is blatantly violating it's own laws in doing so.

Don't take my word for it.

Read the opinion.

And keep this in mind: If the State of Texas gets away with ignoring it's own laws just because they think they should, how long until they are knocking on your door in the middle of the night?

Think it couldn't happen here?

Read a history book my friends.

"First they came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for ... the Jews but I was not Jewish so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me. " Martin Niemoeller

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:02 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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What about the rights of the children?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:10 PM on 05/23/2008
- kiddub I'm a Fan of kiddub 3 fans permalink

They must be balanced with the right of parents to raise their children, within legal parameters, as they see fit. The state cannot simply enter into the private matters of each individual on the appearance of impropriety, they must have actionable evidence that will hold in a court of law. They did not in this case.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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A critically important question Mort.

Please read the opinion.

The childrens' rights are not being protected in this situation.

Further, while the State of Texas deals with the pig in the boa of unncessarily dumping nearly 500 kids into an already overwhelmed child protection system, I guarantee we are going to have children who desperately need protection from immediate dangers falling through the cracks, being abused and even killed.

It's no secret that most Americans hate polygamists.

But if we are to remain a Nation of Laws, acting under the Rule of Law, we have to separate any hatred or contempt for people and their beliefs from the question of whether they have in fact committed any crimes.

If you read the opinion, you will see that the vast majority of persons that have had their children taken away from them, the most extreme measure the State can use in these circumstances, they have done nothing wrong, beyond guilt by association.

In Jewish, and quite candidly, I'm not a big fan of any of the fundamentalists Christians (and the feeling is generally mutual).

Nonetheless, if we still think this is America, it is the law that should decide their fate, not whether a majority of people hate them and their beliefs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 05/23/2008
- jubo I'm a Fan of jubo 6 fans permalink
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The right to live a normal life... We know what the do with the girls - an American burka, charming. The boys are sent off as they are a detriment, etc... and we talk about individual rights... seems we should be talking about the right to be an individual.

We are blaming the alarm bell for the fire, no?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:10 PM on 05/23/2008
- Dan909 I'm a Fan of Dan909 3 fans permalink
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Texas engaging in a shocking abuse of power? It'd be shocking to hear that they weren't doing so.

My favorite graffiti, more relevant today than ever, was one I saw in a Texas men's room back when LBJ was president: "Texans can't sh*t here because their a**hole is in Washington­."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:24 PM on 05/23/2008

Or....this one. " Here I sit, cheeks-a-Flexin. Giving birth to a baby Texan." ;O

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 05/23/2008

Some highlights­...

The only danger to the male children or the female children who had not reached puberty identified by the Department was the Department’s assertion that the “pervasive belief system” of the FLDS community groomed the males to be perpetrators of sexual abuse later in life and taught the girls to submit to sexual abuse after reaching puberty;

There was no evidence that the male children, or the female children who had not reached puberty, were victims of sexual or other physical abuse or in danger of being victims of sexual or other physical abuse;

There was no evidence that any of the female children other than the five identified as having become pregnant between the ages of fifteen and seventeen were victims or potential victims of sexual or other physical abuse;

With the exception of the five female children identified as having become pregnant between the ages of fifteen and seventeen, there was no evidence of any physical abuse or harm to any other child;

The Department conceded at the hearing that teenage pregnancy, by itself, is not a reason to remove children from their home and parents...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:37 PM on 05/23/2008
- kappa08 I'm a Fan of kappa08 79 fans permalink
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In my opinion this cult is no different than a Sultan in the middle east. So the next time "American" you have the nerve to be shocked over "how those people live over there"...j­ust take a look behind our own walls.
As long as this church is not free from taxation. I could care less what they do. If that means incestual love with their own children. Oh well. I'm over trying to save "stupid". Dot their foreheads so we know who not to mix dna with and call it a day.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 05/23/2008
- incontempt I'm a Fan of incontempt 2 fans permalink

I think their big hats give them big heads...bi­g empty heads

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:40 PM on 05/23/2008
- bmermaid I'm a Fan of bmermaid 18 fans permalink
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Sure. Waste more of the Texas tax-payers money because they don't want to admit they were wrong.
I'm not for polygamist life-style, but how is it my business or anyone else's, if no-one is abused, and sounds like there isn't proof of abuse.
The kids were more abused, or at least tramatized, by the authorities.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:10 PM on 05/23/2008
- JR49 I'm a Fan of JR49 4 fans permalink

Well from which time polygamy is accepted and not prosecuted? I hope they will not step back and do what ever is possible to protect all these children from the life style of their parents. I hope law becomes law for all American people not just for some of us. Btw all these so called "mothers" had no problems seeing their daughters having kids with old men but now they play the game for publicity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:46 PM on 05/23/2008

More than half of these kids are under 5 years old. Are you suggesting that all the youngest children have been married off?

Since when did "imminent threat" of abuse mean 15 years from now?

The state has every right to take kids that are immediately threatened. All we ask is that they demonstrate it.

We're still waiting...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 05/23/2008
- darcy I'm a Fan of darcy 27 fans permalink

bmermaid, hundreds of children left at the mercy of religious nutcases? How is that not abuse? Did you hear what the woman who escaped said about life in the sect? These women and children are tormented physically and mentally.

Children are helpless. It behooves us to stand up for them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/23/2008

You are arguing a very slippery slope. When does teaching a religion's beliefs and values become abuse? Sure, having sexual relations with an underage child is against the law (and we haven't seen any documented proof this happened), but someone might just as well argue that any christian, muslim, or jew that "inflicts" their religion on their child is abusing them. While I don't believe that to be the case, it is the logical argument based on your premise.

Any religious person should tread VERY lightly when attempting to condemn another's values that are rooted in religious beliefs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 PM on 05/23/2008

You apparently do not know the trauma of sexual abuse when you are under age. I do not think the "authorities" have traumatized these children like th old men who raped them.

What planet do you live on? Do YOU have children? If you do, I fear for the parenting they are experiencing because you are clueless. Bet you're against taxes and gay marriage, too.

I am happy the state took them from the ranch and am convinced that another hearing will prove that the state did the right thing. Those FLDS old men are nothing more than pedophiles with a preference for teenage girls. That's not religion--that's pedophilia, plain and simple.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:57 PM on 05/23/2008

It's not about the rights of these families, or protecting these kids anymore, it's about saving their own jobs at CPS.

They learned from Mike Nifong. If they admit bungling the case, they're toast.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:58 PM on 05/23/2008
- Mort I'm a Fan of Mort 38 fans permalink
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But the court acknowledged that at least 5 of the children were abused, and that was just by the evidence that was allowed. There are many more. And tossing out the case on technicalities like they did will end up putting those children back into the abusive environment. Jeffs is in prison for it. The adults won't cooperate. The leaders and guilty men hide like slimy rats. The children are getting the shaft in several ways and all we can do is argue about procedures and rights.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:04 PM on 05/23/2008
- Moshe I'm a Fan of Moshe 208 fans permalink
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I'm sorry Mort, but that is just not true. Here is what the Court actually said:

"The Record demonstrates the following facts, which are undisputed by the Department:

"There was no evidence that the male children, or the female children who had not reached puberty, were victims of sexual or physical abuse or in danger of being victims of sexual or physical abuse ... There was no evidence that any of the female children, other than the five identified as having become pregnant between the ages of fifteen and seventeen, were victims or potential victims of sexual or physical abuse."

Let's assume the five were victims of sexual abuse, a fact that even after weeks of investigation, the State cannot prove. That still makes the abuse rate about 1% in that community,and the teen pregancy rate about 6%.

And guess what Nation has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world?

The U.S.

And what State has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the U.S.?

Texas.

If this case represents the new standard for Texas law enforcement, they better start building a lot more prisons and shelters.

But then again, they might want to consider due process, following their own laws, and only convicting the guilty.

Just a thought.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:45 PM on 05/23/2008
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