Odysseus' Return Date From Trojan War Discovered, Scholars Say

WASHINGTON — Using clues from star and sun positions mentioned by the ancient Greek poet Homer, scholars think they have determined the date when King Odysseus returned from the Trojan War and slaughtered a group of suitors who had been pressing his wife to marry one of them.

It was on April 16, 1178 B.C. that the great warrior struck with arrows, swords and spears, killing those who sought to replace him, a pair of researchers say in Monday's online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Science.

Experts have long debated whether the books of Homer reflect the actual history of the Trojan War and its aftermath.

Marcelo O. Magnasco of Rockefeller University in New York and Constantino Baikouzis of the Astronomical Observatory in La Plata, Argentina, acknowledge they had to make some assumptions to determine the date Odysseus returned to his kingdom of Ithaca.

But interpreting clues in Homer's "Odyssey" as references to the positions of stars and a total eclipse of the sun allowed them to determine when a particular set of conditions would have occurred.

"What we'd like to achieve is to get the reader to pick up the 'Odyssey' and read it again, and ponder," said Magnasco. "And to realize that our understanding of these texts is quite imperfect, and even when entire libraries have been written about Homeric studies, there is still room for further investigation."

Their study potentially adds support to the accuracy of Homer's writing.

"Under the assumption that our work turns out to be correct, it adds to the evidence that he knew what he was talking about," Magnasco said. "It still does not prove the historicity of the return of Odysseus," he said. "It only proves that Homer knew about certain astronomical phenomena that happened much before his time."

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Homer reports that on the day of the slaughter the sun is blotted from the sky, possibly a reference to an eclipse. In addition, he mentions more than once that it is the time of a new moon, which is necessary for a total eclipse, the researchers say.

Other clues include:

_Six days before the slaughter, Venus is visible and high in the sky.

_Twenty-nine days before, two constellations _ the Pleiades and Bootes _ are simultaneously visible at sunset.

_And 33 days before, Mercury is high at dawn and near the western end of its trajectory. This is the researchers' interpretation, anyway. Homer wrote that Hermes, the Greek name for Mercury, traveled far west to deliver a message.

"Of course we believe it's amply justified, otherwise we would not commit it to print. However we do recognize there's less ammunition to defend this interpretation than the others," Magnasco said.

"Even though the other astronomical references are much clearer, our interpretation of them as allusions to astronomical phenomena is an assumption," he added in an interview via e-mail.

For example, Magnasco said, Homer writes that as Odysseus spread his sails out of Ogygia, "sleep did not weigh on his eyelids as he watched the Pleiades, and late-setting Bootes, and the Bear."

"We assume he means that as Odysseus set sail shortly after sunset, at nautical twilight the Pleiades and Bootes were simultaneously visible, and that Bootes would be the later-setting of the two," Magnasco explained. "It is a good assumption because every member of his audience would know what was being discussed, as the Pleiades and Bootes were important to them to know the passage of the seasons and would be very familiar with which times of the year they were visible. Remember the only calendar they had was the sky."

Since the occurrence of an eclipse and the various star positions repeat over different periods of time, Magnasco and Baikouzis set out to calculate when they would all occur in the order mentioned in the "Odyssey."

And their result has Odysseus exacting his revenge on April 16, 1178 B.C.

___

On the Net:

PNAS: http://www.pnas.org

Comments

[dotmafia]

Yeah, now if only more people knew about the "ages" and the pagan roots behind Christianity, they'd realize that it's all been a huge lie.

[Economike]

But Britney.....

[ArjenBoatsma]

Highly recommended reading: Where Troy once stood, by Iman Wilkes (Iman is his first name, not his religious title). His contention is, and he backs it up with very convincing arguments, that the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssee are Celtic stories, not Greek stories. Troy was in England, not in Turkey. The "Greek" were Celts, assembling from all over the Atlantic coasts of Western Europe, from Portugal to Norway.

It is very likely that these researchers are right about their assumptions. The Odyssee is not just a story about a cunning warrior, it has many more layers.

The story is an oral map of the then current trade sea routes. Hence, the astronomy in the Odyssee should be accurate.

The story is also an account of Ulysees' initiation as a Celtic Druid, and as such contains the important insights in human nature of that time (and which are still applicable today!)

The Celts relied on oral tradions to maintain and transfer their knowledge. With the migration of people, of tribes, with the seafarers, traders and raiders, the stories, the names of towns traveled with the them. Only hundreds of years later, the story was written down by Homer in Greece, and that is where a great deal of confusion started.

Read "Where Troy once stood", and it all becomes clear.

[AMJordan]

According to a few scholars, Andrew Dalby in "Rediscovering Homer" for instance, the author of "The Odyssey" is probably not the author of "The Illiad". There is also a good chance, using textual evidence, that the author of "The Odyssey" was a woman.

This is all well and good, mind you, but ultimately useless. You have to ask the question, what is the point of all this. The Trojan War stands at the very cusp between Myth and History. Gods are involved, as well as legendary heroes, but many of those heroes and the places they visit actually existed.

Dan Simmons and his books "Illium" and "Olympos" re-ignited an interest in Homer with me. After reading a pretty good translation by Samuel Butler, I discovered things that i didn't realize were in there, like Achilles sacrifice of the Trojan youths for his friends funeral. i never read anything like that in high school.

[johnstoi]

Please spell The Iliad correctly. It is not a sick poem.

[tbo11]

If I'm not mistaken, 1178BC was a leap year...he actually came home on tax day.

[SlinkyTWF]

That would explain his mood.

[wmbear]

ABOUT AS RELIABLE AS 4004 B.C...

As the date for the creation of the world, I'd say. In other words, what is the point of a study like this (other than to gain publicity for the researchers)? It's been established that Homer composed the "Iliad" and "Odyssey" centuries after the legendary events that these epic poems evoke. There probably was a tradition regarding planetary positions during and after key events related to the Trojan war, such as Odysseus' return home. But, again, this tradition was likely handed down by word of mouth for centuries. How accurate is that going to end up?

And this type of excessively literal-minded "research" is coming from the same academic place as those studies that purport to show that Jesus didn't really exist, one of the stupider positions to come out of the modern materialistic cast of academic studies. Like the evangelicals who are Biblical literalists, this is the other side of the coin of textual literal-mindedness and comes from the same basic place.

[rigveda]

There is no reliable evidence for Jesus' existence.

[Hopalongpoppyseed]

Powerful archetypes are usually exaggerations based on real but less dramatic persons or forces. There may be no proof of Jesus, but the idea of Jesus is probably based on someone, just as Arthur is an archetype based on someone. By the way, I am an atheist and I see much of Christianity and other religion as primitive superstition mixed with a few powerful insights. but the power of archetypes is great indeed. There are some "Jesus," ideas worthy of respect.

[andygaus]

The evidence for the existence of Jesus is historically as strong as for any person of so ancient a time. It isn't just the Gospels, it's also the work of other historians, not all Christian. Whether he performed all the miracles or said all the things attributed to him is not provable, but we can be confident that he lived and was crucified. I suppose you could say there is no reliable evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar either. I mean, where are the videotapes?

[Thucydides Jr.]

Uh.. as for literalness, Schliemann found the true Troy using the Iliad as his guide, even when folks thought he was crazy. So I would not dismiss studies of ancient texts so lightly. It makes you sound as extreme as those generalized folks you are railing against.

Also, as you probably know, the Bible itself is understood by all parties to have been helpful in a number of archaeological discoveries. As for Jesus not existing as a person (even if not exactly as described in the gospels) , I don't know of too many historians who believe that, even those who are not Christians.

[pfc1369]

How many historians do you know?

[Economike]

Loosen up

[RTIII]

In answer to (at least one) your question, consider that it is well known that in cultures with oral traditions - and poor or non-existent written traditions - people have vastly better exact-word recall of the spoken language. Many can hear something _once_ and recite it a long time later truly verbatim.

It's just true.

You have to consider that when thinking of how accurate these tales are.

[LintLass]

"But, again, this tradition was likely handed down by word of mouth for centuries. How accurate is that going to end up?"

Actually, that's just the sort of thing oral traditions can be *very* good at preserving. Better than written, perhaps: it may be the kind of detail modern minds pass over as needless embellishment of ' Ok, so he saw some stars, stars are stars..'

But to people very aware of and dependent upon the seasonal positions of the stars, the image would be as clear as 'he rode off into the sunset' ...and there'd be no motivation to alter that.

[jubo]

The answers are up there but we are too busy looking at ourselves.

[Hopalongpoppyseed]

“Know then thyself, presume not God to scan; The proper study of mankind is man”

Alexander Pope

[Wickywoo]

Given that the Trojan War is likely mostly fictional (outside a base framework), maybe that's the time it was set, but don't believe it's anything more than a great piece of literature and a fantastic story

[Indubio]

It would have been nice if you cited a source for your statement but ny guess isthat there is no source. There's been so much published in the last 15 years that establish beyond a reasonable doubt that Homer's Troy existed, the city had a major harbor, that there was a war and major fire in the late Bronze Age that most archaeologists attribute to war. Inferentially, Homer's Trojan War can be substantiated and since there doesn't appear to be a written record (Mycean Linear B writing was used for accounting not prose), all we are ever likely posses is inference. The evidence however is reasonably conclusive: Troy was involved in a war during the late Bronze Age and given the accuracy of Homer's descriptions of Troy as established through archaeology and geomorphology, it is certainly reasonable to assume his descriptions of a war are also accurate. "Harbor Aeas at Ancient Troy: Sedimentology and Geomorphology Complement Homer's Iliad" by John C. Kraft, George Rapp, IIhan Kayan, and John V. Luce might be a good place to start learning about this subject.

[pfc1369]

There is certainly no doubt at all that the city of Troy existed.

Homer's recitation of the siege of Troy is another matter.

[Thucydides Jr.]

This date also matches well with the 12th century BC upheavals across the eastern Mediterranean.

See END OF THE BRONZE AGE: CHANGES IN WARFARE AND THE CATASTROPHE OF 1200 B.C. by Drews

[Thucydides Jr.]

The date also dovetails nicely with the 12th cent. B.C. upheavals across the Eastern Mediterranean.

See THE END OF THE BRONZE AGE : CHANGES IN WARFARE AND THE CATASTROPHE CA. 1200 B. C. by Drews

[DaveMuckey]

Why not just ask John McCain?

[poorotis]

Oh, that is just beautiful Dave. I'd be LOL if the rest of the house weren't asleep!

[111]

LOL