Ancient Scripts Predate - And Could Rewrite - The Bible

Daily Mail:

A fresh interpretation of a stone tablet dated to the decades before Jesus's birth could undermine some fundamentals of the Christian faith, experts claim.

The tablet, which is similar in style to the Dead Sea Scrolls, is said to predict that a messiah would rise from the dead within three days.

The partially-deciphered Ancient Hebrew text had seemed to contain a vision of the apocalypse as told by the Angel Gabriel.

Read the whole story: Daily Mail

Comments

[Dap]

God is just a human emotion, locked inside the psyche of a human being because of the Human condition and perpetuated by those that are illusional and those that seek control of others.

[loki]

I think if God really wrote the bible, it would be much more than it is, and could change at the will of god. Not at the will of ManKind.

[loki]

I have heard nothing about re-writing the bible over this. And to rise after death is a very old and often used story since the beginning of time. Also, since they really didnt know what Dead was back then, people could have been in a comma or something for a while, and rewake, and its called waking from the dead. Just like Immaculate Conception was often used in the old days when they really didnt know who the father was, or when someone became pregnant outside of marriage and the family did not want to be shamed by this. They claimed it was a holy spirit who impregnated the woman to cover up what really happened. These are well known facts , not fictions.

And Mankind wrote the bible, why cant Mankind change the bible. They have changed the bible so many times over the past 2000+ years, it would not really matter. Its the creation of mankind.

[HeevenSteven]

Army assigns body guard to atheist soldier.

Seems the True Believers are so afraid of this atheist, they threatened his life. Guess they're afraid Jebus won't protect them if anyone in their company has doubts.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[GodIs]

Nonbelievers are on the dark side and allied with the forces of decline.

[martinchill]

awesome article - thanks much!

~~~

"In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.

"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.

Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.

Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty."

~~~

spread the word to solders in iraq- renounce your faith and get sent back home!

[111]

Religion and Politics - I love HuffPo

[HeevenSteven]

Hi, My name's Steven and I'm a Heeven... and an addict, a HuffPo addict.

[wondering]

Really, HS?

I'm starting to lose interest - the Living section has turned into a clearinghouse for New Age mumbo-jumbo, and the rest seems pretty blah.

I dunno ... I guess I'll keep checking in from time to time. Gotta keep the True Believers on their toes.

[RJC]

Einstein said it most succinctly" Religion is Childish" it's wishful thinking born or ignorance. It's also very egotistical.

[Infostream]

This non-story is a testament to the success of christianity's mission to obliterate other cultures. Anyone who knows anything about history outside of christian dogma knows the story of savior/resurrection was around long before the bible. I always get a laugh when Easter comes around that people don't get that the word has nothing to do with the Bible, it is an appropriation of pagan mythology. Christianity tirelessly worked to destroy the record of the philosophers of Ancient Greece, and was successful at destroying all but a few verses of the poetry of Sappho, all we know now is she was regarded as one of the greatest artists of her time. The great cathedrals of Europe were built on the destroyed sites of pagan worship, christian missionaries to this day invade other countries to impose their beliefs on other cultures, which is responsible for much of the mistrust and hatred of the US .

Yes, Jesus had some wonderful ideas, but when you choose to believe in those, and reject all the crazy old testament hoo ha in leviticus, you are in fact making a LOGICAL choice, you don't need religion to know that fairness, equality and love will make the world a better place. If you wonder why atheists have a "chip on their shoulder" maybe it's because they are sickened by the violence, hypocritical evil and intolerance of people who use religion to rationalize their actions, then there's Jerry Falwell, Creflo Dollar, need I go on?

[Scytherius]

Exactly! it is amazing anyone with a brain believes the Bible. It is a rip-off of stories/myths that had been around for thousands of years.

[Mort]

Maybe there's a reason the stories have been aroound so long... like they came from the same source? Every culture has them. Is it so hard to believe there's a common root?

[111]

I wonder if scholars actually do believe the Bible or if they just remain silent because of the repercussions if they speak out.

I used to wonder why some priests/bishops/etc. and nuns, who committed absolutely evil acts, were not afraid of what was going to happen to them when they died. Did they really believe saying they were sorry after living a life of debauchery and/or cruelty that all would be forgiven? Then I came to believe that they knew something I didn't know - The Bible is made up of stories transcribed by men in ancient times and is used to gain subservience/ obedience. There is no God, no judgment day, no nothing - so they live as they please, unfortunately for the rest of us.

[brighterside]

those rip off stories and myths about Jesus is false by the way. They are easily proven wrong.

The atheist crowd may not believe in Jesus ever existed. But that movie circulating around the web is nothing more than a big, fat lie that really doesn't prove the Jesus myth story.

For instance:

Jesus never was born in Dec. 25th and that he was never visited by 3 Kings.

Horus was not of a Virgin birth, never had 12 disciples, never had an eastern star during birth, never performed miracles, never had a crucifixion.

There is nothing similar between Jesus and Horus.

I don't have anything against people who are atheist. But to disprove the existence of God I think your better off arguing on other matters besides a movie thats proven to be a quack.

[brighterside]

I'm Christian and do believe in a God almighty. However, I have come to agree with most of what you say. Christianity have destroyed some cultures of the world with their methods of evangelism which I am not proud of. They also make America look bad and intolerant to other cultures.

I once cringed in anger at Pat Robertson who went on a tour throughout India in the name of God. But instead, all he did was rile up the entire nation by calling them pagans and stated that they will all go to hell. He even conjured up the balls to say that depressed state of their nation was because they didn't believe in the Christian God.

I'm ashamed of such deeds by some of these so called Christian leaders. They also taint the teachings of Jesus who preached tolerance and to help those that are in need.

I'm sure there are good Christians out there and not all subscribe to the religious right bu!!cr@p. Its not just wrong but unchristian.

[sparkandy]

In no way does this dilute the true power of Christianity. All this Born Again stuff may or may not be true. But the true power of Christianity was the radical concept that we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. The Book of Common Prayer says, "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind....and thy neighbor as thyself. On these two comandments hang all the law and the prophet." No other religion, past or present, has such a simple and radical concept at its core. Christ was the first philosopher to grant equality to ALL people, lepers, criminals who repent, women and other assorted losers. THAT'S the true power and no new knowledge can take that away.

[Viper]

Wrong, Christianity embraced the concept of royalty.. kings, queens and emperors who ruled because they were not common, blood lines linked to a God, just like what we called Greek and roman religion/mythology..It did not embrace democracy and even embraced slavery.

Even the concept of the son of God is disputed and muddled.. Is Jesus the son of god, or God's form on earth... If God has a son, then just like Zeus and his children, Christianity is not even a monotheism, but another Pagan religion. The solution to that problem which confronted Emperor Constatine was stolen/borrowed from in around 400 AD from the 3 faces of the Hindu Goddess and reached by a committee,

Regards

[111]

That is the old testament where stories abound about the kings and queens, etc.

Jesus message was radical because it rejected all those teachings. People in power used people's ignorance as a tool to say that Christianity was what they said it was which was very different than the message attributed to Jesus.

Much like most "Christians" today who are pro-death penalty, anti-communism, anti-socialism and very much pro-war. Just the opposite of what is said in the new testament.

Regards

[charlot]

Blasphemy!! Everybody knows the Bible is the one and only truth, and that was written in English so that Americans would know that McJeezis died on the cross to help high school football teams win games, and rap artists win Grammy awards. Duh.

[brooklyncitizen]

It's pointless but I'll say it- I'd like to meet an atheist on this site anyway, that doesn't come across as someone with a chip on their shoulder....someone who genuinely had studied theology and philosphy and had concluded that the belief in the Mystery of a Divine Universe was just not worth their time....then that would be really cool.

Instead we get the same rants and "fairytale" comments-just basic opinions without study or knowledge of theology and thoughful analyses...its the same complaint liberals lob at republicans or conservatives by accusing them of drinking koolaid and not undersanding the political issues becaseu they haven't taken the time to research them.

Just take the time to...its not about conversion, its about loosing your "fear of religion" because religion has been a major footprint since the inception of man,for better or worst, might as well understand it if you are not going to join it.

[Kevbo68]

I'm an atheist from a pair of Irish and French Canadian Catholic families. Baptized. Blessed. Confessed. Communed. Confirmed.. Went to Catholic school. Used to play piano at mass. Local CYO member. Aunt is a nun. Dad studied to be a priest. Both parents attended Jesuit college and studied philosophy and theology. I minored in philosophy in college.

But I have a chip on my shoulder as it were. I grew up and grew out of religion. I came to know the fairytale nature of religion and the illogic of faith.

A belief in the "Mystery of a Divine Universe" is just that, a belief. Nothing supported by facts. Religion and faith, no matter how voluminous the texts and how numerous the followers, aren't worth my time. They are closed systems of thought that don't allow for revision or advancement of knowledge. The science I rely on explains more about reality every day and corrects itself. But it doesn't mean there aren't still mysteries to be solved.

So some of us have done our homework! I'm afraid you'll find that with or without previous study, most atheists will reach similar conclusions.

The rants we repeat come from the same place from which we would rant about the idiocy of someone hitting themselves with a hammer. We find them similarly provocative of frustration. We know things could be better with religion and faith set aside by humanity so we're a bit angered by all the lost opportunities for advancement.

[indypete]

Thanks Kev... you've made points I'd have made except for my deficiency of brain cells! Whenever I get in a conversation like this, I regret dropping out of school.... just can't seem to express myself clearly. Self-education is all very well (and I've read a lot) but it's no substitute for the real thing.

[1differentdrummer]

Say all of that and then say, "But if you choose to believe in Jesus, the Juju, Mohammed, Moses, Baal, Buddha or any other system of religion, I will respect your right to that choice.. I will not demean you for your choice. I will not abuse you for studying a 'sacred' text, texts or none. If you choose to follow Jefferson and snip miracles out of the Christian bible in order to follow the essence of that system, as I understand he did, that is your choice. Meantime, please do not try to influence or change my choice or my lack of choice. Please do not 'witness' to me, keep it to yourself. If your religion makes you a better person I will see it in your life and maybe I will ask you about it."

[martinchill]

your comment is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors.

for now, put down the bible and pick up an English book.

[Viper]

Well maybe you could start with Thomas Jefferson and many of our founding father... who w/o the knowledge we have today.. called the Bible no superior to any other books of superstition and mythology


Let me ask you to give historical proof of Jesus... w/o quoting the Bible.. Contemperous support of his existance and what he said by some one there at the time.... There is none.

Regards

[ThermoChemist]

Views from/for both sides:

[1]
http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php
The ancient historical record provides examples of writers, philosophers and historians who lived during or not long after the time Jesus is believed to have lived and who testify to the FACT that he was a REAL person. Some of these people: Tacitus, Lucian, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, Josephus.

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm
For historic / scientific proof of Jesus OUTSIDE the Bible, we may look to Jewish historian Josephus and to Roman historian Tacitus - both well known and accepted.

[2]
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html
If Jesus lived, he must have been born. When ? Matthew and Luke give different times of Christ's birth. Early Christians had absolutely no specific knowledge as to when Christ was born.

After his birth, Christ, vanishes out of existence, and we hear nothing of him until he has reached the age of 30. What historical character can be named whose life for thirty years is an absolute blank to the world?

A large body of opinion in the early church denied the reality of Christ's physical existence. "The Christ of early Christianity wasn"t a human being, but an "appearance," an illusion -- a myth.

The Jesus Christ of the Gospels couldn"t possibly have been a real person. He"s a combination of impossible elements.

[maxcat06]

Why would it be necessary to have studied theology and philosophy to declare oneself an atheist? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that most of us grew up with a firm grounding in the religion of our parents, and the adult decision to not believe is generally more thought out than the easier choice to simply continue along the path of our upbringing. I have no fear of religion...I was raised a Jew, and still feel an historic bond even as I have no desire to enter a synagogue. Perhaps you have a fear of a lack of religion rather than the contrary...

[brooklyncitizen]

I'm not religious.

[111]

I think when you perceive a chip on someone's shoulder there are probably a variety of reasons for it being there if you are perceiving correctly. The Atheists I know have absolutely no fear of religion but "Christians" do seem to fear Atheism and the questions it raises about their Bible and its stories.

For example in the story of Adam and Eve when read without bias -
1 - God is the liar.
2 - The serpent is the truth teller and has compassion for the people.
3 - Who is God referring to when he says that they have become like one of US? and why is God fearful of humans having knowledge?
4 - Sending them from the Garden was to prevent Adam and Eve from having eternal life, not as an additional punishment

It is common knowledge that leaders of the Christian church in ancient times adopted pagan holidays and gods (turning them into saints) to make it more palatable to the pagans they were forcing to worship their way. There are other world myths that describe a god, born of a virgin, who dies and is resurrected.

I find that most people who claim to be Christian do not follow the teachings of the Christ which is unconditional love for all, sharing everything (communism), caring for your fellow humans (socialism), always forgiving and turning the other cheek (anti-death penalty), living peaceably in the world (anti-war).

No chip, just what is.

[Mort]

That's the common interpretation of Adam & Eve, original sin, etc. Actually they would have stayed in the garden in innocence and never had kids, but that wasn't God's plan. He had to force them to use free agency so he gave them conflicting rules. While we think of the banishment as a curse, it was really a blessing. We learn by choosing, reaping the consequences, overcoming problems, not by eating a pear and not an apple. Free agency is one of God's greatest gifts. The "sin" of Adam was his own. We should be grateful that he chose wisely.

[brooklyncitizen]

Inrteresting how people read what they want into this post.

I do appreciate your post and agree with the last part. It is my experience as well that many Christians are not really following Christ. However unconditional love is a fundamental tenet of Christianity; the dictum to care for the poor is a manifestation of this....and I've posted this.

My point is that the stubborness with which atheists ON THIS THREAD cling to their non-belief is reactionary rather than a result of a fruitful search or examination. ( I may be wrong). It is a very narrow way of arriving at a philosophy (if we can refer to atheism as a philosophy) or a value system rather than through engaging in study. It also strikes me as similar to how people in america vote (many republicans) where votes are cast on little information or erroneous perceptions (8 years almost over thank GOD,,,lol) out of fear.

David Bohm a quantum physicist (Holographic Paradigm) was interviewed about his lack of faith...in his workshop the interviewer noticed that there was a horseshoe for good luck over a door. He asked how could a rational scientist who did not believe in the supernatural have a horseshoe ...David Bohm's response was "Well that's in case I am wrong".

Personally I like that.... and suits my desire to remain open and humble to not having all the answers...and really only having answers to as much as I am willing to see.

[brooklyncitizen]

"Some Christians will find it shocking - a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology, while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,' he said."

What a stupid statement....of course Judaism is the foundation for Christianity; many of the prophets in the old testament foretold of Jesus' birth- they expected and sought a king to save them.Always strikes me as silly this disconnect some Christians have from the Jewish roots of Christianity..kind of like the fact that Jesus was a Jew is a bit of a secret/ or a surprise...it is after all called Judeo-Christian.

[Kevbo68]

Hah! I actually think that statement is spot on precisely because of everything you point out. Yeah, there is a funny disconnect many Christians make from Judaism. Silly indeed.

[indypete]

And of course the Moslem thing that split off after a few hundred years of Christianity really threw the cat among the pigeons.

[RoloTomassi]

Ah, but many don't realize that there is likely a strong influence from the Zoroastrian religion on Judaism & Christianity:


http://www.pyracantha.com/zjc3.html

[kellygrrrl]

in Hollywood we call this a PREQUEL

[HumeSkeptic]

Hiya brand new Gamma. You take over. I'm moving on. This is a great thread. Lots of fun.

[totaldisbelief]

Please don't rewrite The Book yet again.pleeeeaaasssse dooonnnn'ttt

[brighterside]

Horus is not Jesus. There are underlying differences between both Horus and Jesus. I watched the movie Zeitgeist and they are all false claims.

First, Horus did not come from a virgin birth. Isis, Horus's mother, took the body parts of Osiris and copulated with it. Osiris is Horus's father. If they had intercourse why and how can this be regarded as a virgin birth?

Secondly, pundits like to point out that Horus and Jesus was born in the same date, Dec. 25th. Little do they know in Christian theology studies believe that Jesus was not born in Dec. 25th and that he was born during a time when the climate was warmer like in the Summer. Early Christians didn't care when he was born. But the Bible have written facts that it must have been the summer months when Jesus was born.

Lastly, pundits mentioned that Horus and Jesus had 3 kings visit them when they were born. Upon reading the Bible, Jesus did have visits from wise men supposedly kings but did not state how many. It could have been 3 but possibly even more.

There are many more facts that are wrong with that assertion that Jesus is Horus. Horus didn't have a star showing in the east when he was born and didn't have 12 disciples. There are more differences between Jesus and Horus but Im going to leave it at that for now.

[Viper]

Who cares both are fairy tales for the weak of mind...

Its like arguing over the size of the diamond ring Mickey gave to Mini mouse.

And where does it say that stories have to be exact for one to be the source/starting point of another? Noah's Arc would be a could example...


Regards

[brighterside]

And the weak of mind argument not on facts but on opinion.

[StillIRise]

Thank you! However, although I do recognize the possibility of the historical Jesus, it is the mythological Jesus that has confused "Christians" over the ages, perpetuating this kind of insane thinking that otherwise reasonable people tend to embrace. I do not doubt that those who would defend the mythical stories of the bible as fact, are also the ones who find the myths of other religions ridiculous.

[brooklyncitizen]

Have you ever studied theology or philosophy?

[HeevenSteven]

Don't waste your time arguing The Zeitgeist Movie; the whole thing's a tin-foil hatter, some truth some, stirred in with paranoia.

[CharlieMarlowe]

Dec. 25th is associated with the Roman cult of Sol Invictus, also related to Mithras, a pre-Zoroastrian cult. Speaking of which, why is there never a mention of Zoroastrianism in these discussions on religion? It is the old belief upon which the three monotheisms are based. Paul Willliam Roberts once said that if Christianity is a Judaic heresy, then Judaism is a Zoroastrian heresy.

However, if you really want to be entertained, there are scholars out there who aver that Christ was a Cynic philosopher. Which doesn't really matter, since Christainity was the brainchild of Paul, formerly Saul.

Genesis was based on the Babylonian creation story, Enuma Elish

[HumeSkeptic]

Hindu creation story is much more entertaining. Funny thing is that it also involves snakes:

http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/signposts/y8/1-1creationandenvironment/c-hindu.htm

"Before time began there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night. A giant cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams or motion."
.

[brighterside]

I studied a bit about the Enuma Elish myth. Actually its more believable than the Genesis story since the word "day" in Genesis stands for era, thousands years or even millions of years in Mesopotamia culture. Therefore, equating Enuma Elish just might make the story of Genesis a bit more credible.

As for the Dec. 25th date that I mentioned -- for one thing the Bible did not say when Jesus was born and due the description made in the bible regarding his birth, some theologians agree that it took place during the summer months. This debunks that story that Jesus is nothing more than the God Horus and other mythical figures because they all were born during Dec. 25th. I've seen the Zeitgeist movie which stated that Jesus was born on Dec. 25th. But the Bible never mentioned when Jesus was born.

I know quite a bit of people here don't believe in any form of religion and thats fine with me and I respect that. But I have to stand up to those people who degrade people of faith by calling them names like moron, idiots, etc. Yet they can hardly make an argument out of anything when called upon to do so.

[RoloTomassi]

Off on a tangent, I suspect that Jews and early Christians were quite aware of the Zoroastrian influence and themes, and I suspect the Christian Council at Nicea offered up an excellent opportunity to bury that bothersome aspect of there religion that manifested itself as the Christian Gnostics.

Gnostics weren't so picky about brand names as they were about the sincere practice of mysticism and spirituality, and there were likely connections between Gnostics founded in the Zoroastrian faith and the early Christian Gnostics.

I suspect early Christians did a lot of destructive work in order to separate themselves from the very formative influences that they largely owed their existence to; the Gnostics were likely the link to Zoroastrian beliefs and symbolism that early Christians wanted eliminated.

Surely being so blatantly derivative of Zoroastrian religion would have made Christian recruiting far more difficult....

[martinchill]

~~

Paul - See Profile I'm a Fan of Paul

The question was "How do I know what God intended?" God's intentions are given in the Bible, and I gave the best citation I could think of.

But you are correct - citing the Bible to support the Bible is circular reasoning. But belief is not a matter of reason or logic.

Reply Favorite Flag as abusive Posted 05:50 PM on 07/07/2008

- + martinchill See Profile I'm a Fan of martinchill

you've reached the natural conclusion of faith vs. evidence.

one seeks an answer - the other consciously avoids one.

~~

[HumeSkeptic]

Are you saying that "faith" seeks the answer? But "faith" assumes the answer. It assumes that there is a God, and the rest of the bunk that goes with it.

It is those wanting evidence who seek the answer. For example, scientists. And they have come up with some great answers that can be verified.

[Paul]

You can't validate laws of nature by faith. Why should faith be required for this?

At the same time Christians believe that they are ultimately saved by God's grace through faith - and this requires no proof.

To limit your understanding to that which is provable is to limit your understanding of God.

[brighterside]

Wow your really are an angry Atheist. So whats next? Your gonna blame 9-11 on the christians?

If you really want to disprove to me that christianity is nothing more than a myth than let me see your evidence. I want intelligence answers rather than the mumblings of an atheistic knuckle head who has no credibility.

I don't usually get upset at other people's point of view and I respect their answers. But if some of those keep putting down others without any factually reason, I am left to wonder why.

[StillIRise]

I am a person of faith who believes that there is a power greater than myself, which some choose to call God. However, I am not a "religious" person, nor do I accept the "bunk that goes with" religion. I respect scientific understanding, yet I also recognize that many scientists themselves realize there are some things beyond their understanding, and just as many are also people of faith and/or religious. It seems that you are implying that faith and religion are synonymous, but one can have faith without religion, and in fact, it is often religiosity itself that confuses faith Having faith and accepting scientific knowledge is a little like walking and chewing gum. We can have and do both. Yet, it is the tenets of religion that can become the stumbling blocks.

[martinchill]

no - i was saying that faith does not seek an answer. it assumes one regardless of evidence.

[Paul]

There is reason, there is experience and there is faith. You can't validate that deduced by reason and logic by faith. And you can't validate faith by reason and logic.

Those who insist on relying only on reason and experience do not give themselves the opportunity to gain understanding by faith.

Your loss.

[HumeSkeptic]

You can't validate that deduced by reason and logic by faith.
----------

Tell me how faith can validate anything. Tell me how you would validate the Law of Garvity by faith.

[HeevenSteven]

Faith can't provide "understanding", in the rational sense or use of that word, but only a purely subjective experience.

[Guynemer]

I'd seen pictures of Japan, and I'd met some people who called themselves Japanese, but ultimately it was a matter of faith when I boarded that 747 and flew across the vast Pacific Ocean and into the sunset.

Folks, we all live by faith.