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Is Iran Rational?

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July 9, 2008 11:25 AM


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Is Iran an "irrational" state, or can its nuclear program be deterred? When the country shoots off nine test missiles (as it did Wednesday) while engaging in uranium enrichment, or makes appalling noises about wiping Israel "off the map," that question is sometimes raised as a prelude to considering an American preemptive strike -- lest a country with an apocalyptic Shiite death wish gain the military prowess to endanger the West.

It's the kind of question that can rock advocates for diplomacy onto their heels, as it casts doubt on the usefulness of anything except military force. Indeed, when issuing a comment on today's controversy, Barack Obama went out of his way to toughen up his diplomatic rhetoric by using the martial verb "eliminate" to describe how he would deal with the threat posed by the Islamic Republic.

But while Iran's global posturing is undeniably bellicose, there is plenty of evidence to suggest a baseline rationality to its regional power ambitions and its domestic politics, particularly among senior figures who predated the current, firebrand president, and who will likely outlast him as well.

For example, take a look at former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani. He's hardly anyone's idea of a democrat. An original member of Ayatollah Khomeini's revolutionary circle, he was implicated in the Iran Contra debacle, accused of facilitating a 1994 Hezbollah bombing in Buenos Aires, and is suspected by many Iranians of taking part in various other corruption scandals during his two terms as president. Indeed, it was Rafsanjani's successor, Mohammed Khatami, who brought the much touted (and subsequently under-performing) program of "reform" to the Iranian populace.

So when Rafsanjani makes the effort to accuse Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of "spreading public impoverishment" -- as he did in May -- it's not simply part of the regular tug of war between liberal and conservative camps in Tehran. Though the two men were electoral rivals in the 2005 presidential race, Rafsanjani is generally thought of as a "pragmatic conservative" voice, and as such, his objections to the style of Ahmadinejad's governance are a useful data point in the ongoing debate about whether the country will prove an "irrational" actor as a regional power.

Few observers expect the 74-year-old Rafsanjani to make another presidential run in 2009, but that hasn't stopped him from taking shots at a president he clearly sees as dangerous for the revolution he helped create. After the United States moved a second battle carrier to the Persian Gulf last year, Rafsanjani warned the Iranian public of the serious threat Ahmadinejad had invited -- with the clear implication that doing so was foolish. Even if the former president goes on Al Jazeera, as he did last week, to brag that "U.S. interests might be exposed to many strikes" by Iran in the event of a conflict, the way he speaks to Iranians tells a different story.

Such caution -- and yes, rationality in the service of political ends -- puts Rafsanjani in the camp with other conservatives in Iran who nevertheless take issue with Adhmadinejad's global saber-rattling. Former nuclear negotiator Ali Larijani, thought to be favored by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei (who really holds the reins of power) also publicly sparred with Ahmadinejad over the president's tactics on the global stage. When the president forced Larijani out of his position in order to consolidate power last year, a key adviser to Khamenei openly blasted the move -- something that many observers felt would not have been done without Khamenei's approval.

Vali Nasr, an Iran expert at the Council on Foreign Relations and author of The Shia Revival, observes that all these senior figures are "old guys, and you don't get to be old by being suicidal." He rejects the idea that Iran's Shiite theology, which is predicated on the return of a "hidden imam" who will kick-start end times, determines the Islamic Republic's foreign policy any more than the eschatology of "rapture" Christianity does in America. (When Ahmadinejad recently started invoking the coming of the "hidden imam" to bolster flagging national sentiment due to a poor economy, religious authorities directed him to stop doing so and instead focus on the country's problems.)

"These guys may be conservative, too religious, too right wing. There are many things I don't like about them," the Iran-born Nasr said. "But to dismiss them as deranged irrational fanatics driven by some kind of feeling about Armageddon just doesn't stand up to the test. Their objectives may not be in U.S. interests, but that does not mean they are irrational. They want great power status in the Mideast. They want a nuclear capability. They want to be the big boss of the Persian Gulf. They want influence in Iraq and Afghanistan. These may not be good things, but they are not irrational."

Beyond that, Nasr points out that, early in President George W. Bush's first term, Iran made cooperative overtures in Afghanistan -- and even sent an anonymous letter through the Swiss that offered negotiations on most outstanding issues. According to a New York Times op-ed by former National Security Council official Flynt Leverett, the Bush administration ignored that approach:

In the spring of 2003, shortly before I left government, the Iranian Foreign Ministry sent Washington a detailed proposal for comprehensive negotiations to resolve bilateral differences. The document acknowledged that Iran would have to address concerns about its weapons programs and support for anti-Israeli terrorist organizations. It was presented as having support from all major players in Iran's power structure, including the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. A conversation I had shortly after leaving the government with a senior conservative Iranian official strongly suggested that this was the case. Unfortunately, the administration's response was to complain that the Swiss diplomats who passed the document from Tehran to Washington were out of line.

Nasr believes the failure of Iran's moderate conservatives and liberal reformists to get traction with the Bush administration created the opportunity for Ahmadinejad to rise to the presidency in the first place. "In the context of Iranian foreign policy, Ahmadinjead's election was the consequence of the failure of more moderate or pragmatic factions in Iran to build their cooperation with the U.S. over Afghanistan into anything beyond being rebuffed over talks," Nasr told the Huffington Post, adding that "Ahmadinejad ridiculed Rafsanjani" during the presidential race for having taken part in the attempt to secure talks with the United States.

Finally, the question of whether Iran is pursuing a nuclear capability in order to bring about global chaos tends to overlook the fact that Iran probably already has the means to set off an international military catastrophe should it want to. Former CIA case officer Robert Baer told the Huffington Post that "Iran could already have started World War III if they wanted to, right in Lebanon," by giving chemical weapons to Hezbollah for the purpose of using against Israel. "One chemical weapon on [the Israeli city of] Haifa, and it's over. ... No, the Iranians are not suicidal. I see them as more calculating," Baer said. "The whole debate about Adhmadinejad is like the Russians looking at McCarthy and saying, 'look because you guys are all crazy, we'll have to go to war with you.' Ahmadinejad is just a spokesman, that's all he'll ever be."

 
 

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- research See Profile I'm a Fan of research permalink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

"In 1951 Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh was elected prime minister. As prime minister, Mossadegh became enormously popular in Iran after he nationalized Iran's oil reserves. In response Britain embargoed Iranian oil and invited the United States to join in a plot to depose Mossadegh, and in 1953 President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax. The operation was successful, and Mossadegh was arrested on 19 August 1953."

It all so BushCo oil buddies can get those oil fields back.

That's it. Just like Iraq.

Everything else is deception.

Iran has not attacked another country without provocation in 300 years.

It's all about the Oil.

Impeachment Prevents Pardons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:24 AM on 07/13/2008
- ApolloSpeaks See Profile I'm a Fan of ApolloSpeaks permalink

AL QAIDA AND THE MULLAHS

Is al Qaida rational? The difference between al Qaida and the mullahs is that the former are stateless while the later controls a large country with vast resourses and 70 million souls. Heck, bin Ladin would cut out his tongue to be like the mullahs. If you're fearful of al Qaida getting then tremble at the thought of a nuclear armed Iran.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 07/10/2008
- martinspringfield See Profile I'm a Fan of martinspringfield permalink

And yet, Iran joined us in Afghanistan to fight the Taliban, Iranians marched in the streets in solidarity with the US on 9/11, until of course we lumped them together with their hated enemy Iraq and Korea in the "axis of evil". Leaving out Pakistan, the nations of origin for the 9/11 thugs, Libya, etc.

Iran has no use in the world for the Sunni Al Qaeda. And there is precedent for a non-nuke Iran because of the mullahs: Khomeini himself cancelled Iran's 80s nuclear program because he felt nukes were anti-Islamic.

Israel can threaten realistically to bomb Iran and fly over Iran in fighter jets but Iran is supposed to sit there stupidly and not respond? How long would a US administration last if it ignored provocation like that?

Obama is entirely right to say we need to engage Iran. Particularly since Bush just handed Iraq over to them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:34 PM on 07/10/2008
- ApolloSpeaks See Profile I'm a Fan of ApolloSpeaks permalink


The Iranians were fighting the anti-ShiiteTaliban before 9/11. The brief US-Iran alliance against them was a marriage of convenience that ended once the Taliban were deposed. The Iranian people are crushed and brutalized by the mullahs but haven't the will to arm, fight and overthrow them. Operational ties between the mullahs/Hezbollah and al Qaida-including 8 of the 19 9/11 hijackers-was documented by the 9/11 Commission.

Iran's nuclear weapons program started in the late 1980s with an executive order issued by Khomeine. The Iranian Revolution and its nuke program are inseperably nonnegotiable. Wiithout the bomb Iran can't achieve its revolutionary aims of unifying Islam and restoring it as a great world power the overarching goal of all radical fundamentalist Moslems, Sunni and Shia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:26 PM on 07/10/2008
- research See Profile I'm a Fan of research permalink

You don't tremble at the thought of a nuclear armed Bush?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:23 PM on 07/10/2008
- ApolloSpeaks See Profile I'm a Fan of ApolloSpeaks permalink

I'm not an enemy of America so why should I tremble?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:11 AM on 07/11/2008
- martinspringfield See Profile I'm a Fan of martinspringfield permalink

Is the USA rational?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 AM on 07/10/2008
- research See Profile I'm a Fan of research permalink

Can you imagine how out of control this can get?

Suppose during an exchange, Iran successfully uses it's underwater missiles to sink an Aircraft Carrier?

What's YOUR emotional response? Would you want us to punish Iran for it?

Will Russia honor it's treaties with Iran and join the war?

Is Life so bad, that we desire world war three?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 AM on 07/10/2008
- darthmaul See Profile I'm a Fan of darthmaul permalink

Iran "offered negotiations on most outstanding issues. According to a New York Times op-ed by former National Security Council official Flynt Leverett, the Bush administration ignored that approach."

Why am I not surprised. John Wayne Bush would rather fight and not accomplish an objective, because that's what the decider tough guys do.

Our beloved president has destabilized the region, cost tens of thousands of lives lost, along with probably a trillion bucks down the old rat hole. And you know Bush and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad could be brothers. Both are bellicose blowhard's, who probably have overplayed their hands. Both have done very little to improve the lot of the people in their countries.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 07/09/2008
- earthwealth See Profile I'm a Fan of earthwealth permalink

One major difference. Mahmoud is a chess player and George is lousy poker player who is good in gambeling other people's belongings. What happened to the 52 card decks printed in the start of the Iraq War?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 07/10/2008
- econdr See Profile I'm a Fan of econdr permalink

The negotiations sent by the Swiss to Bush in 2003 was essentially an all encompassing peace deal. It included recognition of isreal, renunciation of terrorism, abandonment of their nuclear program, full diplomatic relations, support in the war on terror, etc.

Basically, Khatami the reformist president stuck his neck out, and was ignored by the administration.

He was humiliated, and essentially replaced by Khamenei with radical holocaust denying Ahmadinejad.

Basically, in 2003 the US had largely succeeded in Afghanistan and Iraq in the war on terror, and Iran was next on their list of countries to overthrow. Iran was left no choice but to take the hard line and saber rattle and eff with Iraq to keep the US busy until the neocons are out of power.

Long story short, Bush is a f*kking disgrace. The US, Israel and Iran could have been allies in the war on terror, but his dumb ass threw it all away.

Very sad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 07/10/2008
- GKJames See Profile I'm a Fan of GKJames permalink

(1) Interesting. "Bellicose" is never used to describe our own rhetoric. Angels they aren"t, but Iranian leaders" utterings differ little from the nonsense spewed by ours any given day. Let's also recall that changing Iran"s (elected) government is official U.S. policy, pursued as we speak by abetting violence (we call it "terrorism" unless we"re doing it) within Iran. This in addition to threats from Washington and Israel about bombing the place because their perception of the facts tells them to do so. Need we mention that we invaded their neighborhood? Were the braying hounds to listen, they"d observe that Iran"s rhetoric is reactive. If we are attacked, we will do such and other. But that"s inconvenient for those addicted to the adrenaline rush of war, and wedded to the illusion that this will solve something (other than masking a deep fear of impotence). We stoke the rhetoric and become indignant"not just for effect; we actually believe we are put upon"when the other side reacts in kind. Whatever it is, adult thinking this isn't.

(2) To ask "[Is] Iran an "irrational" state" is indicative of the glibness that underpins U.S. foreign policy. Our inability to accept Iran's security concerns, doesn't mean Iranians are crazy, no matter how often we tell ourselves that. That the allegation originates in a country whose leader invokes a "higher authority" when running his own (purportedly non-theocratic) state, or who knowingly goes to war with inadequate resources, is a notion rich in obtuseness.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:55 PM on 07/09/2008
- appleknocker See Profile I'm a Fan of appleknocker permalink

The US is hardly in a position to judge anyone else's rationality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:53 PM on 07/09/2008
- GrainOSand See Profile I'm a Fan of GrainOSand permalink

Confirmation of this is community based.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:38 PM on 07/09/2008
- earthwealth See Profile I'm a Fan of earthwealth permalink

Iran is not a rational country because:
1. In 1953 Iran set up a coup and changed our democratic elected government of Dr. Mosadegh.
2. When Iraq attacked us, Iran fully supported this war and provided Iraq with military, political and WMDs. Our 1000+ WMD victims are still in their hospital beds for the world to see.
3. In July 1998, Iranian Navy shot down our commercial plane while flying legally over OUR Persian Gulf. Only 100 out of 300 bodies were recovered from water. The executer of the mission received an honorably medal.
4. Has been involved in many covert missions in our country targeting some ethnic groups for uprising., sabotage and mercenary activities, explosions in mosques and military bases.
5. Has attacked and occupied two of our neighboring countries and spread their large navy including carriers and nuclear submarines on our shores.
6. Has been threatening us by initiating and supporting numerous economical sanctions and constantly repeating the phrase "all options are on the table".
7. With 6000+ nuclear warheads had made threats to many countries that have no nuclear arsenals.
8. Has installed and supported many dictatorial regimes around the world.
9. In 1988 when four Iranian diplomats were kidnapped and still held in captivity by Israelis, they immediately attacked Israel with nuclear weapons.
10. In 1998, when Taliban beheaded 11 Iranian diplomats sent to Afghanistan by Iranian government to initiate diplomacy, Iran immediately attacked Afghanistan with nuclear weapons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 PM on 07/09/2008
- darthmaul See Profile I'm a Fan of darthmaul permalink

Mosaddeq was removed from power on August 19, 1953, in a coup d'état, supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments and led by General Fazlollah Zahedi.[4] The American operation came to be known as Operation Ajax in America,[5] after its CIA cryptonym, and as the "28 Mordad 1332" coup in Iran, after its date on the Iranian calendar-Source Wikipedia

Seems like the CIA might have "helped" in this coup. Maybe that's why many Iranians still hod a grudge against us. Get your facts straight. The US and the Brits wanted this guy out of power because he wouldn't play ball with the international Oil interests.

10. In 1998, when Taliban beheaded 11 Iranian diplomats sent to Afghanistan by Iranian government to initiate diplomacy, Iran immediately attacked Afghanistan with nuclear weapons.

I think you dreamed up item 10. To the best of my knowledge, Iran didn't attack Afghanistan with nuclear weapons.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:47 AM on 07/10/2008
- TheImpaler See Profile I'm a Fan of TheImpaler permalink

NICELY PUT

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 AM on 07/10/2008
- Princeton See Profile I'm a Fan of Princeton permalink

Most Americans would read these comments nod their heads and go about their business without substituting "Iranians" for "Americans".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 PM on 07/09/2008
- GrainOSand See Profile I'm a Fan of GrainOSand permalink

"Ahmadinejad and his cohort are apocalyptic jihadi revolutionaries."

Beyond rhetoric that enflames tensions, what is the toll in human terms related to this purported posture of evil? Who are they killing today? Who did they kill yesterday? How does that record of killing compare? The complex nuances of the chess game are surely mind boggling. The zero sum game is death and therefore that should drive all policy. It is said, that one should live life in terms of death, in terms of its finality, its irresistability, its permanence, for that leads to living a life of appreciation versus stagnation or inflation of ego to think that one is somehow immune to death. There is not immunity from red blood spilling, wounds beyond healing, brains on the ground and the terrible, terrible sound of the cries and the moans that inevitably, and invariably come.

Two tribes going to war, been there done that. Wake me when its over. Life of tightly controlled manifestations of a select few egos is not life lived but life wasted. I will take the second of the former, over the expected life span of the latter, any day. Stength is hard to define, but I know when I see it and when I have it. I strongly resist any call for still more war and advocate for peace and I abdicate no grouund on this point, no matter the manouvering of hounds of hate, wolves of woe, and hyenas of hurt and despair.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 PM on 07/09/2008
- 23000Days See Profile I'm a Fan of 23000Days permalink

Many commenters here are under the mistaken belief that Amadinijad (Amadi-Nijad) Is Iran's leader.
He's only an elected figurehead, with responsibilities in certain areas of governance. The grand Ayatolla Kameni and the mullah's run the real show, and Amadinijad answers to them, though he rarely speaks for them. This set-up allows him to appear to have autonomy, while they make the grand decisions.
Further, the only reasons we think he's a nut-bag is the mis-interpretation of a comment he mad about Israel, and his views on the holocaust.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:12 PM on 07/09/2008
- MagisterLudi See Profile I'm a Fan of MagisterLudi permalink

"Amadinijad.. only an elected figurehead."Ayatolla Kameni and the mullah's run the real show""

Very good comment. Finally someone who understands the foundations of Iranian politics.

"the only reasons we think he's a nut-bag is the mis-interpretation of a comment he mad about Israel, and his views on the holocaust."

TOTALLY WRONG:

Small sampling of AhMAdJihad quotes. Go ahead, try misrepresentation claim on these:

"If you want to have good relations with the Iranian people in the future, you should acknowledge the right and the might of the Iranian people, and you should bow and surrender to the might of the Iranian people. If you do not accept this, the Iranian people will force you to bow and surrender." - Iranian News Channel (IRINN), August 15, 2006

"there are no homosexuals in Iran - not one. I do not know who has told you we have it."
Whats REALLY sick, this answer was a reply to a question about the execution of two gay men in Iran.

"We believe that atomic energy is a blessing given by God, ... It's an opportunity. It is a clean energy. It is a healthy energy." Clean, healthy energy???!!!!

"Europeans invented a myth that Jews were massacred."

" They [Israelis] should know that if smallest and briefest chance is given to regional nations they will destroy (it)."

This is the best justification of Israeli nuclear program I've ever heard. Thanks AhMAdJihad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 07/10/2008
- kissmygrits See Profile I'm a Fan of kissmygrits permalink

After Israel ran a test-run for bombing Iran, Iran would be nuts not to do something like this little missile-flex. Yes, seems rational actually.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:11 PM on 07/09/2008
- beaupritchard See Profile I'm a Fan of beaupritchard permalink

So ... why do you think narratives of this are always trying to make it sound like Iranians are crazy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 PM on 07/09/2008
- Hirnlego See Profile I'm a Fan of Hirnlego permalink

They're busy selling the west another war.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 PM on 07/09/2008
- jeffp26 See Profile I'm a Fan of jeffp26 permalink

I imagine people all over the world ask themselves the same thing. Are those americans rational?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 07/09/2008
- beaupritchard See Profile I'm a Fan of beaupritchard permalink

Rational ... Let's say you live in a peaceful neighborhood ... a little stranger who you threw out years ago lays claim to the house next door ... the neighbor hood bully helps him throw the people in the house out and gives him the only shotgun on the block.

The stranger suffers from littlemans disease so he starts pointing the shotgun and in some cases shooting at anybody that he thinks doesn't like him ... then running to the bully screaming protect me protect me ... I shot them because they wanted to get a gun.

Now who's the rational one.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 07/09/2008
- S1m0n See Profile I'm a Fan of S1m0n permalink

Good enough, except in this case the strangers didn't get thrown out, they left of their own accord, 2,000 years ago.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 PM on 07/09/2008
- beaupritchard See Profile I'm a Fan of beaupritchard permalink

For those who don't know what littlemans disease is (relax its not dirty)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Little%20Man%E2%80%99s%20Disease

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 07/09/2008
- MinasTirith See Profile I'm a Fan of MinasTirith permalink

Clearly the line of 'Rationality' goes directly towards the approach with Iran, as stated in the opening lines of the article.

Since the 'conclusion' is that they are in fact, quite rational, despite their saber-rattling approach and overtly bellicose chest thumping... and since the old guard within the nation