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Clintons Still Want To Kill Caucuses: The Latest Round

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August 12, 2008 11:08 AM



The Clintons hate the caucus system, and they want to see it die.

First they finished third in Iowa. Then they were out-organized by Barack Obama's campaign in the caucuses after Super Tuesday. Finally, they lost the showdown at the rules committee over how to reinstate delegates from the banned Michigan and Florida primaries.

According to one well-placed source, President Clinton himself is still raw over reports of caucus tampering in Iowa that he believes could have tilted the race in Barack Obama's favor, and has mentioned that possibility several times in conversation. A separate source who is also close to Clinton says the idea that people were "bused in" from Illinois to caucus is still a concern, as well. (The Iowa Democratic Party is not required by law to release its caucus rolls, and has not done so.)

In part, this fits with the pattern of retrospective analysis and persistent "what-if" thinking on the part of some Clinton officials, such as when communications director Howard Wolfson remarked on Fox News that John Edwards cost Sen. Clinton the nomination -- a claim that was later partially debunked.

So while a debate about the use of caucuses might seem moot to some, it remains terribly important to Clinton loyalists. And thus the battle over their use rages on -- sometimes in private, and sometimes in quasi-public forums. The most recent flash point was last weekend's DNC platform committee meeting in Pittsburgh. Included among over 100 proposed amendments to the party's platform was Amendment 93, which would have banned caucuses from future nominating contests.

Not surprisingly, it was a non-starter from the DNC's perspective. According to multiple sources, representatives for DNC Chairman Howard Dean ruled the proposed amendment out of order, since it spoke to a change in party rules, and referred it to the rules committee for a future discussion. Unlike other failed amendments, however, Amendment 93 was not even granted a debate at the platform meeting, a development which set some Clinton supporters on edge.

And after the fact, confusion over which draft of the amendment had even been rejected led to suspicion that it had been improperly referred to the rules committee in the first place.

Bob Remer, a Clinton delegate from Illinois who proposed the language of Amendment 93, told the Huffington Post he could only get a sentence or two out of his mouth before being interrupted at the meeting. Remer believes his preamble -- "The Democratic Party will practice its commitment to voting rights within our own nomination processes" -- would not have represented "a matter of mechanics or a change in rules."

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"I just thought i was premature to rule it out of order," he said. Referring to the surrogates at the platform meeting who represented Obama and the DNC, Remer said: "They could have made their case and had it voted down. They could have entertained a motion to table. But at least you'd have a debate. I was caught in mid-sentence."

Still, after that preamble, Remer's amendment pivoted into some pretty rule-impacting language. In part, it read: "Caucuses inherently disenfranchise the elderly, disabled, shift workers, single parents, and others whose circumstance prohibits participation in caucuses. The 2008 primaries illustrated that a caucus vote is worth more than a primary vote because each delegate elected by caucus represents fewer votes than each delegate elected by (a) primary."

The language also went on to assert that "party officials" and "aggressive participants" often assert coercion over voters that is immune from federal oversight. Thus, Remer wrote, the party should "forbid caucuses" in the future and require all states to hold primaries -- an expensive proposition that the DNC points out many states cannot afford.

Remer said he could understand why that language would be referred to the rules committee, though he believes the preamble could have been adopted on the basis of "principals and policy."

DNC platform member and prominent Clinton fundraiser Lynn Forester was even more explicit. In a statement to the Huffington Post, she said: "You must ask yourself, why would the Democratic Party reject the language of Amendment 93, saying the 'Democratic Party will practice its commitment to voting rights within its own nomination processes'? The fact that they used a technicality to deny this language as a statement of the Democratic Party's beliefs is a stain on this process."

While the DNC would not comment on the dispute except to describe it as an internal party matter, a source with knowledge of the committee's thinking said the platform meeting was not the appropriate time or place for the discussion. Noting that the document is meant to bring the party together and speak to broader goals, the source said the prospect of hashing out internecine party disputes was anathema to the DNC.

As for whether caucus rules could be properly addressed in the "voting rights" section of the platform, the source distinguished the party's rules for a private nominating contest from its support for the Federal Civil Voting Rights Act and the 14th amendment. (Indeed, a suit alleging that caucuses and primaries were "voting rights" issues was tossed by a federal judge earlier this year.)

The source also admitted that the DNC knows it has to address the problems of the caucus system and its proportional influence over the entire nominating process, but that it will take time, perhaps years, to properly thrash out the details.

For his part, Remer says that was his only goal. "They sort of said, we know the problem but don't bug me here," he recalled, laughing. But he insists he wasn't interested in calling Barack Obama's caucus wins into question after the fact. "This wasn't for the purpose of changing the course of history. Barack Obama is our nominee and I'm happy with that. I want to change the course of the future."

Forester, however, sees a broader alliance between Chairman Dean and Barack Obama that she feels is bad for the party. "Howard Dean's representative struck down Amendment 93," she said after the platform meeting, which she attended as an appointed Clinton representative. "Governor Dean is afraid of this language and that's an outrage. And by extension he's carrying Obama's water like he has through this whole nominating process. He is compromising the basic principle of one person, one vote, in order to give the nomination to Barack Obama and that means the Democratic party has a big problem."

Remer didn't come away totally disappointed from Saturday's platform meeting, however. Another one of his amendments passed, paving the way for a stronger position on guaranteed health care for all Americans. Another source from the Clinton side expressed gratitude that other Hillary-like language made it into the platform. "The Obama and Clinton people were definitely making an effort to reach out," the source said.

Perhaps the most prominent linguistic olive branch in the platform comes in a passage that reads: "Our party is proud that we have put 18 million cracks in the highest glass ceiling," echoing rhetoric that Sen. Clinton herself used when suspending her campaign.

Still, despite such sounds of harmony, the issue of caucuses is destined to come up again. Remer said he plans to address the rules committee on the matter -- an opportunity he could have as early as next week. Describing an epiphany that occurred while he was carrying a blind and disabled elderly woman up the stairs at an Iowa caucus site in January, he said he determined then and there that "this thing has got to go."

"It doesn't really matter who my candidate was," he said. "But I cut my teeth fighting elections fraud, for the sanctity of secret ballot. When we went to Iowa, I said, 'this is what we've been fighting against all these years in terms of election reform, my God!' Even when we thought our candidate was going to win, I said, 'It doesn't matter. It's very undemocratic.'"

The Clintons hate the caucus system, and they want to see it die. First they finished third in Iowa. Then they were out-organized by Barack Obama's campaign in the caucuses after Super Tuesday. Final...
The Clintons hate the caucus system, and they want to see it die. First they finished third in Iowa. Then they were out-organized by Barack Obama's campaign in the caucuses after Super Tuesday. Final...
 
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One person, One vote, Secret Ballot...Primary System. The bedrock of our democracy. Not the
exclusionary system that caucuses have proved to be unavailable for shift workers, first responders,
military, the elderly, infirmed and many other groups who are affected.
No we are LONG OVERDUE for this necessary change. Howard Dean should be recognize, at a time
when so many Americans have died or given up "pieces" of themselves fighting on foreign lands, how
awful it is to deny them the ability to participate in our democratic process by voting in their primary.
Not primary and caucus, just primary. Voting shouldn't take hours... . I know for years, my husband
and I, have voted early, on our way to work.
I applaud the Clinton initiative. I wish every true Democrat would get on board. It is NOT about politics.
It is about doing what IS right.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:33 PM on 09/11/2008

The Clintons' geering up for the 2012 race and ready to stick it to Obama. Good thing she's not the VP Pick.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 08/23/2008
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So they want to kill it because they lost....nice

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 PM on 08/19/2008

Additionally, I think the DNC should adopt caucuses for all state primaries in order to develop and evolve the party into a transparent democratic system where everyone communicates with each other and actually has a vote with a paper trail. Also, there would be more locations and a sense of community that would help all people to participate if it was a DNC system of primary instead of just certain states. And last, but not least, the financial benefit would reward the party and each state. The thought of eliminating voting machines and, therefore voter fraud would be another great benefit to the party, democracy and the country. Maybe with a democrat in the white house and more in congress we can pass caucuses as the voting rule of law....The Clinton's would love it!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 08/14/2008

The DNC should not be mandating voting practices in individual states, this decision should be left to the state party leaders and their constituents. The cost of a caucus is much less than a full electoral primary. The state caucus practice should not be faulted and elimnated because the Clinton's lack the ability, effort and support to win in caucus states. Yes, it is much easier to win elections in states where you have the support of the state politicians who have the access and power to manipulate the voting tabulation with machinery.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 08/14/2008

The Clintons are right but this is not the time. Between now and the next Presidential campaign, the party should dispense with the Caucus system. Having survived the Washington caucus, I can testify that it is so open to intimidation, group think and manipulation as to be a total mockery of Democracy. If you believe in the sanctity of one person, one vote, cast in secret if at all humanly possible, then the Caucus is anathema.

While the DNC is at it, they should do away with the weighted districts. The idea that one Democratic voter in one part of a state casts a vote that is counted as 3/4 of the vote of another Democratic voter in another part of a state is just plain stupid. Again, the system favors voting blocs rather than the individual voter.

I realize that many state parties, use the caucus as a fund raising system, but there are better more honest ways to do this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 08/14/2008
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I'm not happy with the system either. But now is not the time to try to muddle things up because it appears that the Clinton's are bitter and non-supportive of their party's candidate.

Hillary may have to ride this one out. She put up a fight and lost. That is what it is about. Only one can win and it wasn't her this time.

I believe there should never be anything other than a popular vote...period. What is the purpose of all this game-playing and conventions anyway...other than an excuse for a party.

Let the people pick their candidates then let them campaign until the election...put away the party hats and get to work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:31 PM on 08/14/2008

I find it interesting that the caucuses are now a problem. Clinton (both) have made the decision not to focus on caucuses based on their experience in the '90s. If there was such a concern, why did the Clintons not have Ickes and other supporters to nix the caucus system before the primaries started? This is probably the first election where a candidate (Obama) actually explained how the system works to the point where many minorities were comfortable enough to join the caucus process. It's exciting to even view it as an outsider. Anyway, the point is that the Clintons had plenty of time and opportunity to influence the DNC rules but, because of their stance as the frontrunners, presumption that people would not would not show up to the caucuses, and not sharing information about the superdelegates. Arrogance = $250 million dollars wasted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 08/14/2008

Good! I used to like the Clintons but now they are acting like petty sore losers. I just want them to GO AWAY, FAR AWAY!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 AM on 08/15/2008
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It is truly sad how Fox News has changed what the facts are. They always don't Agree with the facts, just like Hilary's supporters. They win West Virginia and Indiana simply because those states hate blacks and then brag about being discriminated as woman. More people hate blacks than woman.

Your woman's intuition doesn't change the vote count and it doesn't mean you get to cheat and not count the caucas people who voted.

Let us review the facts
1. You lost 3 times as many states as Barack Obama.,
2. You lost the popular vote, the electoral vote and if you force a role call at he convention there will be no fututre Hilary candidate. She will lose bad. The party won't kamikaze just because you ladies are feeling unfairly treated. Grow up and stop lying about the numbers because you "FEEL" the facts aren't facts. Your not Fox news, you are simply stubborn and spoiled and need to grow up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:21 AM on 08/14/2008
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I agree caucuses should be done away with. There is not purpose in having them. Every state should vote the same way and have the same system. This is America not some thrid world country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 08/13/2008
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i thought it was the united states of america?

states actually like to have some say in the process. citizens of states get to vote on the type of system they prefer. this isn't some tin pot dictatorship - yet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 PM on 08/13/2008

I was part of the WA caucus Feb 9.

I had done my homework, looked at all of the candidates, and revised who I was going to vote for as the candidates dwindled.

There was child care available. Lots of people got rides. If you wanted to get there, there was lots of ways to get there.

The people from my precinct talked about the various topics. When we had to decide who to vote for, there were some who had not made up their minds. We discussed it. Since it was proportional, 3 delegates went to Obama and 1 delegate went to Clinton.

Yes, I had to give up 1 1/2 hours of my Saturday. I also gave up 5 hours of another Saturday because I was a delegate and had to go to the District meeting. I would never have had the opportunity to be that active in the electoral process without the caucus. IMO, it is part of being a citizen to be active.

Caucuses are a much more active way to be involved in the political process. Personally I believe that the votes should count as 1/2 of the delegates. I also think that the caucus was a way to get together with people from my precinct and work as a community. Something I don't think we get to do enough.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 08/13/2008

Well said and I totally agree!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:35 PM on 08/14/2008

Obama supporter that I am, I think abolishing caucuses is a worthy aim for the Democratic Party.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 08/13/2008

Caucuses seem to favor people who have hours to spend on voting. In other words people with nothing else to do. Voting should be as easy as possible so the greatest number of people participate, not just unemployed "activists".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 PM on 08/13/2008
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i own a farm, grow corn and raise a few cattle. i manage a medical testing lab 5 days a week.

don't you dare call me an unemployed activist. you elitist piece of crap.

i give up a saturday - my country is worth a day of my time. i give it gladly. too bad more people didn't feel the same.

you want to have some drive thru, mindless, easy, uninformed voting that requires nothing of you - fine.

just stay away from my voting rights and stop telling lies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:52 PM on 08/13/2008
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Thank you for your participation in the process. I think caucuses are a good thing, though we do not have them in my state. I think they show a group of individual who show commitment to a discussion of who would be best for our country and why.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:14 PM on 08/14/2008

Thats great you own your own farm, meaning you can take off when possible. Some are employees working on an inflexible schedule. Time is money and when you're barely making ends meet you can't attend a caucus for hours and risk not feeding your children or coming up short on the mortgage.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:54 PM on 08/18/2008

Spending "hours on voting" doesn't mean that you have nothing else to do.

It means that those hours you spend on voting or caucusing is one of the most important things you have to do. And you devote the time because it is that important.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 AM on 08/14/2008
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Thanks for saving me the time of stating that. Beware nick names with Mike. they are oft trol)ish posters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 PM on 08/14/2008

Ok, for the PUMA "anything that hurts Obama must be good" crowd, I'll try a sports analogy.

Last year my wonderful Colorado Rockies took the city on a great ride. They went on an amazing run, beat a bunch of teams they weren't supposed to and made it all the way to the World Series. The city was full of delirious, eager fans. They played the Boston Red Sox, in a winner takes all match. They got absolutely crushed. Fans here were super disappointed- heartbroken even. We just felt like our team SHOULD have won.

But we aren't blaming the umps, the fact that one league has the designated hitter and the other doesn't, or the ballparks or the rules or anything else and we aren't trying to change rules which might really favor one team over another DURING the season. The reality is that they were lucky to make it that far, they were simply playing a much better team- and in the end, talent won out.

Sometimes you just have to take your lumps, admit you got out played, and then go through channels if you really do have a way to improve the game in the FUTURE. But the PUMAs just can't do that. Everything has to screech to a halt for them to be happy- everyone else be damned. Well, in the real world, you can't always get what you want, and some times your team loses. Most people over six years old get this point.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 08/13/2008
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Senz - I applaud you for trying - I just think it's a case of some "missing chips" - really missing !
Good analogy - it's takes character to be a good loser (as well as a good winner) -
It's takes having the chips to recognize that balance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:21 PM on 08/13/2008

UncommonSenz See Profile I'm a Fan of UncommonSenz I'm a fan of this user

Actually there are several reasons (which have been posted here):

1) They are less prone to "operation chaos" type shenanigans (because it takes more effort to stick around and explain your decision)

2) Though many people may not be able to participate, those that do often find the process much more energizing than a simple vote (there were a ton of "first time ever" caucus attendees this year, and in interview after interview they were positive about the experience)

3) By raising the bar for participation (a couple of hours instead of a few minutes in a primary) you get a better gauge of what the most devoted participants want (instead of casual voters)

4) It rewards grass roots (non-big money) candidates because if they can out organize the opposition, they can get people to plead their case to the undecideds before the caucus votes (and revotes). This negates the power of big money in campaigns.
____________________________________________________________________________

1) But they ARE prone to intimidation and peer pressure.

2) I am not at all interested that a few voters find caucuses 'energizing.' I am much more concerned that many, many voters are disenfranchised

3)Seriously? Your primary interest is the "devoted" voter? Aren't you concerned about all of the poor schmucks who are unable to vote? That is disturbingly elitist.

4) Again, the intimidation factor raises its ugly head.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:51 PM on 08/13/2008
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1) But they ARE prone to intimidation and peer pressure.
GOOD - IT'S A TRUE TEST OF CHARACTER NOT TO BOW DOWN TO PRESSURE.
2) I am not at all interested that a few voters find caucuses 'energizing.' I am much more concerned that many, many voters are disenfranchised
MANY, MANY VOTERS CHANGE THEIR MINDS, DAY BY DAY, DEPENDING ON THE LATEST SPIN.
3)Seriously? Your primary interest is the "devoted" voter? Aren't you concerned about all of the poor schmucks who are unable to vote? That is disturbingly elitist.
WHEN THERE'S A WILL (CONVICTION) THERE'S A WAY.
4) Again, the intimidation factor raises its ugly head.
RISE ABOVE IT & VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 PM on 08/13/2008

Funny how you left off the last point of my comment-

"Yes, they have serious flaws, and I'm not saying the caucus should stay or go, but to pretend "nobody answered why they are good" is just a flat out lie."

So, you make it look as if I am saying that there aren't flaws with Caucuses and that I think we should have them when I said, explicitly the opposite.

Argue the points for and against them all you want, but don't try to paint me as an "elitist" for merely mentioning the arguments on the pro-side of caucuses. And don't pretend I didn't say what one can scroll down and clearly see that I did say.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:21 PM on 08/13/2008
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