AP's Debate Factcheck: Kissinger, Ahmadinejad, And More

WASHINGTON — Some facts got lost when Democrat Barack Obama and Republican John McCain confronted each other over the financial crisis, Iraq, the oil industry and more in the first presidential debate of the 2008 general election.

Here are examples:

OBAMA: "Senator McCain mentioned Henry Kissinger, who is one of his advisers, who along with five recent secretaries of state just said we should meet with Iran _ guess what? _ without preconditions."

MCCAIN: "Dr. Kissinger did not say that he would approve face-to-face meetings between the president of the United States and (Iranian President Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad. He did not say that. He said there could be secretary-level and lower-level meetings. I've always encouraged that."

THE FACTS: Obama was right that Kissinger called for meetings without preconditions. McCain was right that Kissinger did not call for such meetings to be between the two presidents.

In a foreign policy forum Saturday, Kissinger said: "I am in favor of negotiating with Iran." He went on to say "I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level" and the U.S. should go into the talks with "a clear understanding of what is it we're trying to prevent. What is it going to do if we can't achieve what we're talking about? But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations. We ought, however, to be very clear about the content of negotiations and work it out with other countries and with our own government."

OBAMA: "John, you want to give oil companies another $4 billion" in tax breaks.

THE FACTS: The $4 billion in tax breaks for the oil companies is simply part of McCain's overall corporate tax reduction plan and does not represent an additional tax benefit. In other words, the corporate tax reduction applies to all corporations, oil companies included. Both Obama and McCain have proposed eliminating oil and gas tax loopholes.

Story continues below

advertisement

MCCAIN: "I've been criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange commission."

THE FACT: McCain did eventually call for the resignation of SEC Chairman Christopher Cox. But he first said that if he were president he would fire him, a step a president cannot take with the head of an independent regulatory agency. This is what McCain said on Sept. 18 during a rally in Iowa: "The chairman of the SEC serves at the appointment of the president and, in my view, has betrayed the public's trust. If I were president today, I would fire him."

OBAMA: Said he would make sure that the health care system "allows everyone to have basic coverage."

THE FACTS: If that sounds like universal health coverage, it's not. Obama picked his words carefully _ stopping short of claiming outright that his plan provides health care for all. He promises to make health insurance affordable but would only require that children have coverage, not adults. Estimates of how many would remain without insurance vary. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said during the primaries that Obama's plan would leave 15 million people uninsured.

MCCAIN: "We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Senator Obama voted for it."

THE FACTS: Obama did vote for a 2005 energy bill supported by President Bush that included billions in subsidies for oil and natural gas production. McCain opposed the bill on grounds it included unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry. Obama voted to strip the legislation of the oil and gas industry tax breaks. When that failed, he voted for the overall measure. Obama has said he supported the legislation because it provided money for renewable energy.

OBAMA: "We're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad."

THE FACTS: Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser and Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, this separation was ended _ allowing banks and insurance companies to sell securities.

But while regular banks were strictly regulated by the government, Wall Street banks and other non-bank institutions _ many of the same institutions whose abuses led to the current crisis _ were allowed to operate with less regulation.

MCCAIN: McCain said Obama voted to cut off money for the troops in Iraq.

THE FACTS: Despite opposing the war, Obama has, with one exception, voted for Iraq troop financing. In 2007, he voted against a troop funding bill because it did not contain language calling for a troop withdrawal. The Illinois senator backed another bill that had such language _ and money for the troops.

MCCAIN: In a discussion of how the government could shrink spending, he said: "Look, we are sending $700 billion a year overseas to countries that don't like us very much."

The comment echoes one he made in his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention earlier this month, when he was talking about money the U.S. spends on foreign oil. FactCheck.org says the U.S. this year is on track to spend $536 billion on imported oil _ not $700 billion _ and nearly one-third of that comes from friendly nations: Canada, Mexico and Britain.

MCCAIN: "Senator Obama twice said in debates he would sit down with Ahmadinejad, (Venezuelan President Hugo) Chavez and (Cuban President) Raul Castro without precondition."

OBAMA: "Now, understand what this means, 'without preconditions.' It doesn't mean that you invite them over for tea one day. ... There's a difference between preconditions and preparation. Of course we've got to do preparations, starting with low-level diplomatic talks, and it may not work, because Iran is a rogue regime."

THE FACTS: Obama was asked in a July 2007 debate whether he would be willing to meet "without precondition" with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Cuba and other rogue nations. Obama replied, "I would," adding that it was ridiculous to think that America is punishing such nations by refusing to speak with them. Time and again since then he has been forced to defend the statement, both by Democrats during the primaries and by Republicans.

Obama has tried to draw a distinction between a precondition and preparation. He has argued that he wouldn't demand that a foreign leader give in on some fundamental issue before the two sides met to discuss the dispute. But he has said "preparations" would require diplomatic contacts to gauge whether a formal meeting would be useful and to lay the groundwork for those talks

MCCAIN: Defending his call for Cox's resignation, McCain said the country has lost the sense of accountability exemplified by Allied commander Dwight Eisenhower on the eve of D-Day. He said Eisenhower wrote one letter to be released in the event of victory, which praised the troops, "and he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy."

THE FACTS: Eisenhower prepared to take responsibility in the note to be delivered in the event of D-Day disaster but did not offer to resign.

The full text:

"Our landings in the Cherbourg-Le Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone."

___

Associated Press Writers Tom Raum, Lolita Baldor and Anne Gearan contributed to this report.

Comments

[KiwisCanFly]

"Senator Obama has the most liberal voting record in the United States Senate," McCain said. "It's hard to reach across the aisle from that far to the left."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/748/
A non-partisan fact checker.

Republican candidates often brand their Democratic opponents as liberals to portray them as lefties who favor big government and high taxes. Linguists who study political rhetoric say Republicans have been so effective at giving the word a negative connotation that many Democrats won't call themselves liberals. They prefer "progressives."

McCain's statement that Obama "has the most liberal voting record in the United States Senate," suggests it is a cumulative rating for all of Obama's time in the Senate. But in fact, it is true for only one rating for one year. Measurements for other years and by other groups show Obama is not the No. 1 liberal " in some cases, far from No. 1. So we find McCain's statement to be Barely True.

[kid5rivers2]

LIBERAL: (adjective)

1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.

[exflatlander]

I once had a student who thought he was being funny when he said,"Kill the liberals." (sounds like a Palin fan) Without battng an eyelash i asked him to get a dictionary off the shelf. he did. I asked him to look up "liberal" and read it aloud. He did and the spunk went right out of his voice as he did. One student burst out laughing and said,"Bam She got you!"

Republicans have debased a number of noble and honorable terms and ideas (conservation is for those who want to feel good about themselves). It's a shame that they have such despicable morals. One of the terms they have so abused is morals - and values - and freedom. I want my language back, too.

[Wylee]

McCain skewed what Obama said and now McCain is getting credit for being right. How does that work?

THE FACTS: Obama was right that Kissinger called for meetings without preconditions. McCain was right that Kissinger did not call for such meetings to be between the two presidents.

"McCain was right that Kissinger dit not call for such meeting.." Well, the problem with this is that to be right, something needed to be said beforehand that was wrong. Obama did not. What Obama said was:

OBAMA: So let's talk about this. First of all, Ahmadinejad is NOT THE MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN IRAN. So he may not be the right person to talk to.

And OBAMA in February: "Obama also said during a debate last year that he was willing to meet with LEADERS of Iran and other U.S. rivals without preconditions.

It appears that McCain and Palin both refer to Ahmadinejad as the person in power in Iran and Obama is the only one getting it right. In Iran, it is the Grand Ayatollah who has command over Iranian military - not the President.

But, somehow McCain's campaign has spun their mistatements and misunderstandings of a theocracy as Obama's mistatements and now Factcheck sides with McCain. How in the heck did that happen?

[KiwisCanFly]

Henry Kissinger "said that we should meet with Iran -- guess what -- without precondition." BHO

Here's what Kissinger said during the CNN forum with other secretaries of state at George Washington University:

"Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic," Kissinger said.

Kissinger then added, "But I do not believe that we can make conditions for the opening of negotiations. We ought, however, to be very clear about the content of negotiations and work it out with other countries and with our own government."

That would seem to differ from McCain's position. McCain has made clear he would hold "no unconditional summits."

Obama is right that Kissinger supports meetings without preconditions. But he neglects to mention that Kissinger specified they would be "at the secretary of state level." And Obama's comments imply that he was referring to meetings at the presidential level. So we find Obama's statement to be Half True.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/749/

[KiwisCanFly]

"He has voted in the United States Senate to increase taxes on people who make as low as $42,000 a year," McCain said.

The statement also suggests that Obama as president would favor tax increases for incomes of $42,000. He does not. Obama's tax proposals are crafted so that tax increases hit those couples $250,000 or more a year, or $200,000 for singles. He also proposes a $1,000 tax credit on income for working families ($500 for singles).

McCain here makes his statement on a vote that would not have directly changed the tax code. We find the statement Barely True.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/742/

From Politifact, a non-partisan fact checker.

[KiwisCanFly]

From Politifact, a non-partisan fact checker.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/746/

Here, we'll look at Obama's claim that McCain wants to give oil companies $4-billion in tax breaks, a claim he's made several times.

The Obama campaign defends this claim because McCain supports cutting corporate taxes, reducing them from a maximum tax rate of 35 percent to a maximum tax rate of 25 percent.
Based on that tax change, the Obama campaign estimates that oil companies would save $4-billion a year. Specifically, they cite a study from the left-leaning Center for American Progress Action Fund. That group analyzed financial statements for the five largest oil companies from the Securities and Exchange Commission and calculated current and deferred taxes paid in 2007 to the federal government for income earned from U.S. operations. They then calculated how much less those companies would pay if the corporate tax rate were dropped from 35 percent to 25 percent. The total savings to the five oil companies, $3.8-billion; $1.2-billion Exxon Mobil alone.

As a result, when Obama made the claim in the debate it was True.

[KiwisCanFly]

"Obama has said he supported the legislation(2005 Energy Bill) because it provided money for renewable energy." AP

From Politifact, a non-partisan fact checker.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/397/

A boost, not an impediment, to clean energy

the legislation included tax breaks for oil companies " $2.6-billion to be exact " those were largely wiped out by a $3-billion extension of taxes on crude oil to help offset costs associated with oil spills. The bulk of the $14.6-billion in tax incentives included in the legislation actually went to "renewable" sources of energy, to accelerate the development of wind, clean-coal and nuclear power, and hybrid vehicles. (Although there is debate over whether coal and nuclear power should be considered renewable.)


Obama has said he felt the good in the bill outweighed the bad. Obama is correct. This bill was the biggest mandate of investment in renewable energy, EVER!

[KiwisCanFly]

"Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser " AP

The Subprime Mess and Phil Gramm: An Experiment in Deregulation
June 24, 2008

Shortly after George W. Bush was elected president, Congress and President Clinton were trying to pass a $384 billion omnibus spending bill, and while the debates swirled around the passage of this bill, Senator Phil Gramm clandestinely slipped a 262-page amendment into the omnibus appropriations bill titled: Commodity Futures Modernization Act.

http://losangeles.injuryboard.com/miscellaneous/the-subprime-mess-and-phil-gramm-an-experiment-in-deregulation.aspx?googleid=242468

Gramm set out to completely gut the Glass-Steagall Act, and did so successfully. Replacing most of its components with the new Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Allowing commercial banks, investment banks, and insurers to merge (which would have violated antitrust laws under Glass-Steagall). This deregulation paved the way for the substandard, subprime lending mess that led to the market melt down.
Gramm, drafted McCain's economic policy plans.

[notthistime]

It seems to me that a lot of the media missed the fact that McCain seemed to acknowledge that our government has been torturing prisoners. I haven't seen it in any of the fact checks today. Is that the case? Did our government admit to torturing prisoners? Who and when did we do it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhXn8QXW1E&feature=related
Listen when the meter gets to 7:02 mins

"We have a long way to go in our intelligence services. We have to do a better job with human intelligence. We have to make sure that we have people who are trained interrogators that we don't ever torture a prisoner ever again."

[nibblybits]

I really liked this fact check on NBC's First Read:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/26/1455433.aspx

On McCain's criticism that Obama never held a subcommittee meeting on Afghanistan.

"Meanwhile, the Senate Armed Services Committee -- of which McCain serves as ranking member -- has held at least seven hearings on Afghanistan in the last two years. And McCain DID NOT attend a single one of them, according to NBC News."

[razberryberet]

Maybe it's just me, but bottom line...if a meeting between the President of the United States and a not-too-friendly foreign country leader would slow or stop an arms race, decrease nuclear proliferation, aid human rights I say "WTF are you waiting for?" seriously, big picture. we are sliding from our super-power status, why not use any power we have to help the world?

[nerakami]

I agree with some comments here in that we seem to keep getting hung up on the minor details and lose sight of the bigger issues. The fact is all 5 past Secretaries of State agree that meetings with rogue leaders is the best course of action. The MINOR detail is whether it's the President or the Secretary of State. The big point is, a change in our attitude!

Geez, does it take the average American to realize what the hell is important regarding these issues.
Sometimes the pundits are too samrt for their own good.

[ssengele]

Unbelievable that they didn't fact-check the issue of corporate tax rates for the US compared to other countries. That's been a huge, misleading Republican talking point for too long, and Obama nailed the truth about it.

[mediamarv]

Very pro-McCain spin (and typical of AP these days) in the following fact check:
Missing is the important info that the legislation they are discussing was drafted and offered by Phil Gramm, now McCain's discredited advisor, and passed by a Republican congress. Makes quite a difference if you know that while reading the following:

OBAMA: "We're also going to have to look at, how is it that we shredded so many regulations? We did not set up a 21st-century regulatory framework to deal with these problems. And that in part has to do with an economic philosophy that says that regulation is always bad."

THE FACTS: Some of the abuses that occurred stemmed from the 1999 repeal of a Depression-era law that separated banks from brokerages. In legislation supported by former President Clinton and Robert Rubin, now a top Obama adviser and Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, this separation was ended _ allowing banks and insurance companies to sell securities.

But while regular banks were strictly regulated by the government, Wall Street banks and other non-bank institutions _ many of the same institutions whose abuses led to the current crisis _ were allowed to operate with less regulation.

[mad tn dem]

hats off to you mediamarv, you saved me some typing..I knew the history of that particular legislation, and if I remember correctly, Mr. and Mrs. Gramm slid it thru as Clinton was on his way out; he may have taken his eye off the ball, but the fault for this mess falls directly in the republicans hands, mccain's especially.

[kathy001]

All these freakin' semantics, especially about the Kissinger reference, are driving me nuts. Frankly, the President does not do all of the meetings with other nations - that is the job of the Secretary of State. But it's the President who decides if we will or will not talk with other nations and sets the conditions.

McCain was absolutely wrong on this point and he used whatever distortion he could to try and make it come out his way.

[Skootermarx]

You are, as the Brits are so fond of saying, spot on, Kathy001.

Historically, both Democraps and Rethuglians parse with such frequency that we seldom are privy to a clear, unambiguous statement when they address us. Yet it is far too easy to use the "they all lie" canard as an excuse. Since when is lying excusable? Do any of us need a list of the whoppers from W's administration, Clinton's, Bush 41, Rayguns, LBJ, Kennedy, et al? Yet where is the outrage? Where is the sense of betrayal when our leaders lie? Congress is perhaps worse and even the Supreme Court is a political pawn -- see how the same 14th Amendment was used to support both the Separate but Equal ruling in Plessy v. Brown as well as in the Civil Rights Legislation of the 60's.

Far from perfect, better than most.

[ssengele]

I think it was a great trap that Obama set. Even if there's an impression that McCain might be "more correct" on this issue, there's also the impression that his foreign policy is a cold war relic being written by Nixon's cabinet.