Plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot

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LARRY NEUMEISTER | February 15, 2009 08:24 PM EST | AP

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Women leave flowers at a makeshift memorial to the victims of Continental Connection Flight 3407, at the Clarence Center United Methodist Church, Sunday, Feb. 15, 2009 in Clarence, N.Y. (AP Photo/Robert F. Bukaty)

BUFFALO, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot until just before it went down in icy weather, indicating that the pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendations and violated the airline's own policy for flying in such conditions, an investigator said Sunday.

Federal guidelines and the airline's own instructions suggest a pilot should not engage the autopilot when flying through ice. If the ice is severe, the company that operated Continental Flight 3407 requires pilots to shut off the autopilot.

"You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Steve Chealander of the National Transportation Safety Board, which also recommends that pilots disengage the autopilot in icy conditions.

Automatic safety devices returned the aircraft to manual control just before it fell from the sky, Chealander said.

During a Sunday briefing, Chealander described the flight's frantic last moments, which included a steep drop and rollercoaster-like pitching and rolling.

Chealander said information from the plane's flight data recorder indicates that the plane pitched up at an angle of 31 degrees, then pitched down at 45 degrees.

The plane rolled to the left at 46 degrees, then snapped back to the right at 105 degrees _ 15 degrees beyond vertical.

Radar data shows Flight 3407 fell from 1,800 feet above sea level to 1,000 feet in five seconds, he said. Passengers and crew would have experienced G-forces up to twice as strong as on the ground.

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The plane crashed belly first onto a house Thursday night, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.

Just before they went down in a suburban neighborhood near the Buffalo airport, the pilots discussed "significant" ice buildup on their wings and windshield. Other aircraft in the area told air traffic controllers they also experienced icing around the same time.

The Dash 8 Q400 plane operated by Colgan Air was equipped with a "stick shaker" mechanism that rattles the yoke to warn the pilot if the plane is about to lose aerodynamic lift, a condition called a stall.

When the stick shaker engaged, it would have automatically turned off the autopilot, Chealander said.

Before that, the pilot switched on an anti-stall device that increases the speed of the plane by 20 knots and gives a pilot more margin to recover from a stall if it occurs.

Chealander said the plane's deicing system was turned on 11 minutes after it took off from Newark, N.J., and stayed on for the entire flight. Indicator lights showed the system appeared to be working.

He said the pilot was being "very conservative" by turning it on so soon.

Investigators who examined both engines said they appeared to be running normally at the time of the crash, too.

In a December safety alert issued by the NTSB, the agency said pilots in icy conditions should turn off or limit the use of the autopilot to better "feel" changes in the handling qualities of the airplane.

Still, Chealander was careful not to criticize the pilot.

"Everything that should have been done was done so we keep looking," he said. "We keep looking, trying to find out why this happened."

Colgan Air operates a fleet of 51 regional turboprops for Continental Connection, United Express and US Airways Express.

Chealander said Colgan, like most airlines, had begun following NTSB recommendations that pilots use deicing systems as soon as they enter conditions that might lead to icing.

Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown said the agency advises pilots to disengage the autopilot when ice is accumulating, but the guidance is not mandatory.

She also said some planes are certified to be flown on autopilot in icing conditions because doing so "may actually keep the aircraft at a steadier speed and altitude than a pilot could flying it manually."

Brown said the agency considered making the guidance mandatory, but others in the aviation community argued against it, citing the capabilities of such advanced planes.

She did not know if the 74-seat Q400 Bombardier aircraft that crashed Thursday was certified to be on autopilot during icing conditions.

By Sunday, authorities had recovered the remains of at least 15 people from the wreckage as crews raced to finish their work before a storm arrives later in the week.

Recovery crews could need as much as four days to remove the remains from the site. Chealander described the efforts as an "excavation."

"Keep in mind, there's an airplane that fell on top of a house, and they're now intermingled," he said.

DNA and dental records will be used to identify the remains, he said.

"Whether we can identify everybody or not remains to be seen, but it will be weeks, the identification process," Erie County Health Commissioner Anthony Billittier said.

Once all the remains are recovered, the focus will turn to removing wreckage of the 74-seat aircraft from the neighborhood.

___

Associated Press writers William Kates, Ramit Plushnick-Masti, Carolyn Thompson and John Curran contributed to this report.

BUFFALO, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot until just before it went down in icy weather, indicating that the pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendat...
BUFFALO, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo was on autopilot until just before it went down in icy weather, indicating that the pilot may have ignored federal safety recommendat...
 
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- sacto92 I'm a Fan of sacto92 2 fans permalink

Oh my God! Just when I thought i'd seen all there was to see from all the extremist wackos on this site. Now THIS is a conspiracy too? Hey there was also a 9-11 widow on that flight. Maybe she was about to reveal the truth about the US government planning the whole thing. Maybe the pilots were carrying their research revealing who killed JFK. I bet Karl Rove was involved in this crash in some way!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:42 AM on 02/16/2009
- Norge I'm a Fan of Norge 22 fans permalink

If you want to read about extremist wackos and conspiracy, go to B. Madoff. There were about 30,000 people riding in his lear jet and it is reality today and not wackos fantasies.

Conspiracy thinkers are far and few between actually considering the size of the human population and sometimes they are correct in their connecting of the dots though often it is wishfull thinking.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 AM on 02/16/2009
- Norge I'm a Fan of Norge 22 fans permalink

If they were activated then obviously not on auto-pilot which is the first bit of miss-information
and on approach at 500ft. they would have used power on approach.
If they were compensating for ice, increased weight and reduced speed and raising the nose eventually would have perpetrated a stall though their warning sounder would have long before that moment activated and they would have lowered the nose. If not they would have stalled of course and spun in. If their engines had just stopped they would not just drop out of the sky as a stone and into a house. What happened to emergency landing procedures and possibility of sitting the plane down in a field or more preferable a road.
Perhaps, though there are so many variables and unknowns doubtfull the truth will ever be known.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:28 AM on 02/16/2009

I'm a fan of Norge.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:35 AM on 02/16/2009
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All reports have stated that the nose was raised suddenly. That would, under those conditions, precipitate a stall.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 PM on 02/16/2009
- Norge I'm a Fan of Norge 22 fans permalink

In years past I had been checked out in small single engine planes and learned in flight school never to jerk up fast. So I tend to doubt the reports which give such information.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:53 PM on 02/17/2009

This accident was very unfortunate and we sympathize with the poor passengers and the people in the house that died. Dwelling on what happened, despite the insight, does not change what happened. I hope this does not turn into a finger pointing situation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:55 PM on 02/15/2009

I would hope that if there need be a finger pointing/bring justice kind of situation that the finger be real big and very strong. I would hope that if there does not need be a finger pointing situation that somebody would prove it and let the proof not be a lie.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 02/16/2009
- Indy 44 I'm a Fan of Indy 44 17 fans permalink
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I hope this will put to bed, once and for all, the notion that this catastrophe was orchestrated --- and because of one particular passenger on that flight (who was a 'foe' of our previous president).

I've about had it with all this c_o_n s piracy nonsense.

How about devoting some of this energy to sympathy, or grief.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:48 PM on 02/15/2009
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Apparently I haven't been following this very closely, but Jes.us, there are people considering this an orchestrated conspiracy? That's pretty id.iotic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:53 AM on 02/16/2009

It would be lazy to come to conclusions without investigation. That includes you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:08 AM on 02/16/2009
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Highly id.iotic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:05 PM on 02/16/2009

Yes, the fact that so many people were lost makes it seem that they were not after the one. Very convenient. A nice way to muddle who they are after if this is the case. However, let us do the math. If there are 18,000 flights a day in this country and there has not been a f a t al c rash in 2 1/2 years, what would be the likelihood the only person who had a successful case against all of the power and money of the U.S. government for all this time about nine one one would be on the only f light to c rash? Then, take the chance that Mike C onell who has been implicated in the stealing of the 2004 election for Bush and the e r a s i n g of emails would be lost in a p lane c rash (also considering that his p lane had been t amp erred with more than once, and when he asked M uk a s e y for protection was denied) within two months of each other is a very interesting math problem. If you were to do the math, then you would find that the chances of winning the lottery would be higher. Combine this with the fact that the and tracks victims, except for the nurse, were all people who were investigating the event or other interesting details about Bush co. All evidence was thrown away.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 AM on 02/16/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

You have a good case with Mike Connell. It is possible that is was an accident, but given the previous tampering, I think it unlikely. Given the state of the art CVR and FDRs now, it is nearly impossible to sabotage a commercial aircraft and get away with it. The same is not true of private aircraft. The problem with such sabotage is that it requires just the right circumstances to succeed. Most of the time it will not, and such tampering WILL be caught if it fails.
When JKF Jr went down, I knew exactly what had happened. It is called the graveyard spiral. It was his lack of an instrument license and his inexperience that killed him. The FACT is that in those conditions he was effectively flying only by his instruments since he had NO outside visual references. When he reached down to change fuel tanks as is called for in the before landing checklist, he still had his hand on the controls. As he leaned down, his hand pulled the plane into a steep bank without his knowing it. When he looked back up, his instruments told him the truth, but his HEAD told him he was straight and level. I have personally experienced the same thing. It REALLY messed my head up, and I did what I was trained to do. It was so bad though, that I asked the other pilot with me to take control, while I reset my internal gyros.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:20 AM on 02/16/2009

Please remember that 50 people died. Can you imagine the horror that they experienced? I get it though, speculating like this detaches one from focusing on the terrible aspects of the crash itself. On occasion, I've imagined what it must have been like... and, no, I'm not afraid to fly.

By hypothesizing on possible errors and weather scenarios, it makes us think that this would not happen again because pilots/airlines would learn from this and not let it happen again, but this presupposes that all that has been said about the cause is true.

It's human nature to want to control our circumstances or at least know the answers to why things happen, but one will never really know for sure what happened to that plane. All we do know is that that crew and passengers spent the last minutes of their lives most likely in mortal fear that can't even be contemplated. The man on the ground had no idea of his fate. Perhaps lucky in comparison.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 PM on 02/15/2009

eMJayy:
I am a retired Test Engineer and was very impressed by your 3-part presentation of the NASA icing research. I worked for a contractor that used the Icing Research Tunnel at the NASA Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio to conduct tests on a de-icing system for a research aircraft during the 80s.
Viewing that footage brought back memories of how exciting, interesting, and important working in the research and development field for 40 years really was.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 PM on 02/15/2009
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God bless them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 PM on 02/15/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

The rule in flying is that if you do something such as extending the gear or flaps, and you don't like what happens, UNDO what you just did. That will give you some time to figure out what happened.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 PM on 02/15/2009

You seem knowlegable and unbiased. I would like to know to know what you think of this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/07/obama-plane-forced-to-mak_n_111211.html

I also want to know if you would like to see my statistical analysis about the chances of two very important Bush foes to go down in p lane accidents in two months?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 PM on 02/15/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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babymonster--didn't get your e-mail yet!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 02/15/2009

I sent it to your swan one. It did not come back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 AM on 02/16/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

Given the fact that there are at least 50 MILLION Bush haters in the USA, including myself, it is guite likely that on any day, there will be at least two or more such folks dying every day from assorted causes.The problem now is that if any sabotage is done nowadays, it is rather easy to catch the fact given the state of the art of CVRs and FDRs. In the old days I have no doubt that you could get away with some funny business. The slide that deployed on the MD-80 is something that is rarely inspected except at long intervals, and I was quite surprised that it caused any kind of problem.

I talked with a pilot who worked with me and he personally knew the captain of the Wellstone flight. That was a true accident since the captain of that flight had been working all night at his real job and was probably asleep or groggy and did not monitor the F/O who was flying that leg. The F/O was inexperienced and had flown with a bad captain for most of his flight time. This was the first flight with this captain. The bad captain had a very bad habit of overriding the F/O and controlling the throttles on an approach. The new guy did not know that or increase power, and did not monitor the guy. So they simply ran out of airspeed with the captain asleep, stalled and crashed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 02/16/2009

That was not the cause. Why are you saying that when in the article it states that it was the e m e r g e n c y e s c a p e system that went off in mid f light and pinned the hydraulics and made it almost impossible to control?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 AM on 02/16/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

It did NOT make it almost impossible to control, and it did NOT affect the hydraulics either. It simply temporarily put some pressure on the control cables which was resolved pretty quickly when the chute found other areas to expand into. The crew was right in immediately putting the plane on the ground ASAP since control problems MUST be addressed immediately and reported as well, even if it is minor as in this case.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 AM on 02/16/2009

According to the expert that was on the scene, it was a miracle. Maybe, it was R o n B r own or Obama's mom that prevented it from going down.

Seeing that Bush had access to the military and all of their goodies, the assertion you made earlier about not being able to sabotage to be incorrect. In fact, I think it would be quite easy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:36 PM on 02/16/2009

They were not h ate rs. They were the top two people in the whole country that could put them in jail. Do not confuse the difference are try to confuse others of that difference.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 AM on 02/16/2009

correction

and do not try to confuse others of that difference

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:16 AM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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The news reports contradict what you are saying about the pilots. It is clear in the follow-ups to this story that the pilot was not fatigued but was in fact very well rested for the Wellstone flight.

Rumor, hearsay and innuendo from third-parties don't count. Try research instead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:44 PM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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From the Minneapolis Star Tribune 10-26-02:

The pilots of Wellstone's plane... Conry had nearly 5200 hours of flying time and the highest certification a pilot can attain, his company said. Guess had 650 hours and was certified as a commercial pilot; he graduated from UND's aeronautics program.

From the 10-29-02 St.Paul Pioneer Press:

Dr. Thomas Uncini, St. Louis County's chief medical examiner, said Monday his preliminary conclusions are that the two pilots were in good physical condition...

From the 10-29-02 Minneapolis Star Tribune:

According to Executive Aviation, which operated the plane, Capt. Richard Conry flew his second-to-last flight Thursday, to Bismarck, N.D. His co-pilot on that flight told the NTSB that Conry didn't seem sick or tired on that flight.

Conry spent much of Wednesday undergoing a required test of his flying proficiency, the Star Tribune has learned. Executive Aviation spokeswoman Mary Milla said Monday that Conry passed the so-called check ride, which was administered by a company pilot designated to conduct the exams by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

The proficiency checks are required of commercial aviators every six months to maintain licensure.

"He passed the check with flying colors," said Conry's wife, Johanne, on Monday. She also said her husband was in good health and well rested for the Wellstone flight.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0210/S00206.htm

______________

Much more at above re: "icing", etc.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 PM on 02/16/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

Skyknight, you are right about the horizontal stab, it is an inverted planeform to produce a downward lift on the tail. In ice that downward force is degraded as the wing shape is degraded by the ice. Thus, the plane is trimmed more nose up by the autopilot. The incident started as the F/O selected landing flaps. This gives a nose up pitching moment and if the plane is trimmed full nose up as it possibly was, the autopilot could not retrim the plane quickly enough to keep the plane level, thus the 31 degree pitch up. At that point the airspeed would decrease extremely rapidly, far more than normal, the stick shaker would activate kicking off the autopilot, the stick PUSHER would activate driving the nose down. The captain must have grabbed the controls, and added to the pitch down command. The plane was stalled at some point, and as the plane fell off to the left, he overcompensated to the right. This is a low time pilot with probably no aerobatic experience or upset training. He overcompensated on the roll past vertical so that when he pulled back on the yoke to get or keep the nose up, it had the OPPOSITE effect of pulling the nose DOWN. He probably saw the ground just before he hit, and got it level with the nose level, but just because the nose is up does NOT mean you will overcome the inertia and be going up.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:06 PM on 02/15/2009

That makes more sense than anything I've seen or heard since the accident occured. Thanks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 02/15/2009

You may very well be right about how it happened in that way, but if it were not an accident, wouldn't there have to be some thing that could be made to t rigger that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 PM on 02/15/2009
- lykitis I'm a Fan of lykitis 7 fans permalink

For each person...may they rest in peace and to those who loved and knew them, may they be comforted in beautiful memories of their loved ones. Its so hard to think that after such a beautiful story story on the Hudson that now grief forms a different story.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 02/15/2009
- redplanet I'm a Fan of redplanet 11 fans permalink

Clarify, please. What did Eckert supposedly know that made her so dangerous to Bush? I am not doubting - or agreeing - just curious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 02/15/2009

She wanted things to be properly investigated and she even may have believed that it was an inside job. Would you like to know why people believe that it was?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 PM on 02/15/2009

Ummm, actually no, but I have a feeling you're going to tell us all about it regardless.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:15 PM on 02/15/2009

What am I wrong about?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 PM on 02/15/2009

I didn't say you were wrong, I have no idea what brought down that plane, but I do believe the 9/11 investigation was a sham.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 AM on 02/16/2009
- redplanet I'm a Fan of redplanet 11 fans permalink

Yes. Color me curious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 PM on 02/15/2009

My computer is about to lose power. Senator Bob Gra ham was on the commission. Bush stuffed the chairs with people trying to hide things while others were trying to get to the truth. The B administration managed to b lack out major parts of it which implicated a country with initials SA with supplying critical help to the perpetrators. SA paid for all those schools. Bob resigned in protest. Te net the ex head of the CIA was in one of the princes' pools drunk yelling about how he was sold out. Is real warned us many different times. They wondered why they weren't responding to their warnings so they sent people here to film the event. The t words went to a f light school that was owned by close Bush friends. They are also friends with SA royalty and the Bin family. There was a third building that the NIST at first denied that it fell in free fall like an im p l o s i o n. There are witnesses who saw the charges go off to make it fall. The building held all the evidence of the CIA going back many years that could incriminate many people in crimes against humanity and all of that info was about to be released in the Freedom of info act. Now that is all lost. Have a good night.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:52 PM on 02/15/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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Good summary except you forgot to mention several people have said Israel did it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 02/15/2009

I don't think they did. Why warn us?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:13 AM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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They warned people in the Israeli Odigo network.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 AM on 02/16/2009

There you are. I was just about to go to bed. I sent it to your swanson email. Did you get it?

What is the Odigo network?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:42 AM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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An Israel "messaging" service--two hours prior to the first attack, warnings went out on it to subscribers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:50 AM on 02/16/2009

Wo. Their gov had an office there that they broke the lease with exorbitant penalty to get out of it. I am afraid of how asking this question might sound, but how many people of j descent were lost in the event?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:04 AM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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Reportedly, three (one in the WTC, two in the planes).

Odigo had its U.S. headquarters two blocks from the WTC. The Odigo employees, however, did not pass the warning on to the authorities in New York City, a move that could have saved thousands of lives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 PM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack.
Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the messages and immediately after the terror attack informed the company's management, which immediately contacted the Israeli security services, which brought in the FBI.

"I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't know the sender. It may just have been someone who was joking and turned out they accidentally got it right. And I don't know if our information was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made," said Macover. Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:35 PM on 02/16/2009
- Hoisin I'm a Fan of Hoisin 2 fans permalink

This was obviously pilot error. How dull do you have to be to not realize your about to stall? Journalists need to get a clue and realize what it means when the black box says the stick was pulled back 31 to degrees. PILOT PANIC! Duh! and when your about to stall you dont pull back you push forward and force a dive to get more air speed over the wings. Geez, flying 101 people, get with it. Why do they keep acting like this wasnt pilot error? So rich investors have time to bail before the general public does?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 PM on 02/15/2009

What happened to babymonster...did s/he run out of rap?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 PM on 02/15/2009

We'll see if you are correct.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 PM on 02/15/2009

Babymonster-- I'd say your name suits you. Aside from the reprehensible nature of your allegations, your logic is flawed. Anyone can take two unlikely events of any kind, mathematically combine the odds and conclude that the chance of both occurring is statistically so remote that one or both occurrences must have been planned. That sort of logic is called a vicious circle.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:17 PM on 02/15/2009

No, it is not. It is used to put nurses in jail all the time. Pure statistics. I'm sorry to say that you are a failing of the American Educational system.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 PM on 02/15/2009

put nurses in jail--???-­---what---­????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 PM on 02/15/2009
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The way I figure it, babymonster was a nurse, until his employer used "statistics" to figure that some of his patients weren't doing that well. He keeps talking about the connection between statistics and nursing. I think that connection might be personal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 PM on 02/15/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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Ad hominem, not debate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 PM on 02/15/2009
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Have you read babymonsters um, posts? Until then kindly s t f u. When he posts something close to warranting "debate" he'll get the same. Otherwise, I''ll treat you and him with the same contempt.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 02/16/2009
- Carolab I'm a Fan of Carolab 356 fans permalink
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Okay, but if you a_ttack expect att_ack back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:33 AM on 02/16/2009
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You've said more than enough to indicate the quality of your mind. I'm not worried.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:24 AM on 02/16/2009
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Wait, this gets better. I just discovered that you're a "FAN of babymonster." Priceless. (My instincts never fail me.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:00 AM on 02/16/2009

I have no idea what went wrong, but what a terrifying way to lose ones life. Those poor people. I can only hope they are in a better place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:43 PM on 02/15/2009

thank - YOU !

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:46 PM on 02/15/2009
- SonyaInTx I'm a Fan of SonyaInTx 3 fans permalink

I can only hope that death was quick. I get chills thinking that those people burned alive after slamming to the ground.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:47 PM on 02/15/2009

Me too.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 PM on 02/15/2009

so the plane is on " auto-pilot " and they stopped talking to the control tower for a good amount of time before the crash---no may-day signal---w.tf

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:41 PM on 02/15/2009
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