Washington Post Finally Describes Waterboarding As Torture (When Someone Else Does It)

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March 31, 2009 12:32 PM

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Waterboarding

Here's some unique writing from the Washington Post, in an article about a man named Kaing Khek Lev, or "Duch," a notorious genocidaire of the Khmer Rouge, who this week took responsibility for his crimes, namely running "the Khmer Rouge's most notorious torture center, Tuol Sleng in Phnom Penh," where an "estimated 16,000 men, women and children died." Now, we've read a lot of descriptions of torture in the Washington Post, but some editor allowed reporter Tim Johnston to file an extraordinary rendition:

The prosecution described a chain of death operated by Duch. His victims -- most of whom were either disgraced members of the Khmer Rouge or their families -- were tortured with electric shocks, waterboarding or beating to extract a confession, which would implicate new victims. After confessing, the victims would be killed, most often by a sharp blow to the back of the head.


"There were autopsies carried out on live persons, there was medical experimentation, and people were bled to death: These were all crimes against humanity admitted by Duch," the prosecutors charged in the indictment. Among the four forms of torture he officially condoned, they said, was pouring water up victims' noses.

Wow. You see what Johnston did there, right? He called waterboarding "torture." He specifically called "pouring water up victims' noses"...torture.

It's a break from typical media traditions, obviously. See, when outfits like the WaPo typically talk about waterboarding, it's referred to as "a form of simulated drowning that U.S. officials had previously deemed a crime" or "harsh interrogation tactics" or an "interrogation tactic" or "harsh interrogation practices" or "a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill." But unless you are in possession of whatever gland produces honesty, like Dan Froomkin, you never, never, ever just come right out and say that waterboarding is torture.

I guess it becomes "torture" when it's being done by genocidal Communist madmen, whose political ideology lacks the beautiful exceptionalism that normally transforms an abhorrent and inhumane act into a patriotic gesture. At least I think that's the equation. I'm willing to revisit this position if, say, Ruth Marcus puts on her Inanity Cap and pens a piece about how we should give Duch a break because SURELY, when he was torturing and killing people in Phnom Penh, he was acting "not with criminal intent, but in the belief that they had grants of authority reaching to the highest levels of government."

This is a painting of the waterboarding that was perpetrated by the Khmer Rouge at Security Prison 21, which is now known as the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum. This painting hangs there. We also did this to people. One day, maybe paintings of things that we did to people will also hang in museums. They will probably be called the "Freedom Museum Of Harsh Techniques," and will be celebrated as a whited sepulchre of self-delusion.

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Here's some unique writing from the Washington Post, in an article about a man named Kaing Khek Lev, or "Duch," a notorious genocidaire of the Khmer Rouge, who this week took responsibility for his cr...
Here's some unique writing from the Washington Post, in an article about a man named Kaing Khek Lev, or "Duch," a notorious genocidaire of the Khmer Rouge, who this week took responsibility for his cr...
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- shadowgm I'm a Fan of shadowgm 11 fans permalink

Looks to me like the article has been 'sanitized for your protection.'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 AM on 04/01/2009
- lowgear I'm a Fan of lowgear 6 fans permalink
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all this complaining for a simple glass of water

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:37 AM on 04/01/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 160 fans permalink

Yes, when we are discussiing the activities of other illegal regimes suddenly waterboarding becomes a crime again. How typical!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:53 PM on 03/31/2009

Stunning isn't it?

Liberal media. Sure.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:21 PM on 03/31/2009
- Davwbaird I'm a Fan of Davwbaird 24 fans permalink
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We put to death Japanese for water boarding and a number of other atrociousness for which we are guilty.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 PM on 03/31/2009
- JEP57 I'm a Fan of JEP57 7 fans permalink

Lets change the argument from torture to taking a life. If a sociopath was holding a gun to the head of a loved one and said they were definitely going to pull the trigger, then they were taken out by a police sniper, most people would say it was justified to save an innocent life. But if the police used waterboarding to extract information on a man who admitted to putting this same victim in a chamber with only two hours of oxygen but refused to give the location, and were successful and saved them, a lot of people on this thread would say "no way". One of the reasons for this is that waterboarding is associated with Bush and Cheney who they despise. But if Obama was president for the last eight years with waterboarding taking place, then it would be: "Oh isn't Michele's dress chic?"

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 03/31/2009
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Water boarding was developed in the years of the Spanish Inquisition in order to torture confessions out of "heretics." It has always been considered torture since then, and no amount of P.R. from the Bush administration has made it otherwise.
Torture is torture no matter what advertising friendly name you hang on it, and torturing prisoners has never been an American value. Until Bush-Cheney that is.
You are wrong about president Obama also; he would never allow water boarding.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:20 PM on 03/31/2009

Well said!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:23 AM on 04/01/2009
- unitron I'm a Fan of unitron 20 fans permalink

So the police don't know where this suffocation chamber is, but they know with absolute certainty that it exists, and that the missing person is ensconced there, and that the person in custody is responsible and knows the location as well as how long the missing person can survive on the air in the chamber?

Do they also know, as McLaughlin would say , to a metaphysical certainty, that the person in custody was depraved, but completely sane, and not just some nut job making it all up?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:26 PM on 03/31/2009
- realpolitic I'm a Fan of realpolitic 160 fans permalink

It sort of sounds like the first Dirty Harry film starring Clint Eastwood!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 PM on 03/31/2009
- FatherWolf I'm a Fan of FatherWolf 21 fans permalink

To quote RealistDem, Jep has been watching too much 24.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:20 AM on 04/01/2009
- texasaggie I'm a Fan of texasaggie 11 fans permalink
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Forget the hypotheticals and give me a real-life example of torture working. The "ticking time bomb" argument is always blown out of proportion. And your similar hypo forgets one thing: what if the man being tortured didn't actually do anything and doesn't know where the victim is or who the victim is? Or, is it still OK to torture someone who may or may not have known about a crime that took place in the past? We can see the man holding the gun to a person's head. I can't believe we even have to debate this. Your last point about the Obamaniacs, however, was funny and sadly a bit true. We should hold him to the same standards. Most liberals will hold him to the same standards and will not blindly follow if he continues Bush policy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:40 PM on 03/31/2009
- siegfried I'm a Fan of siegfried 9 fans permalink

Right, and failing to prosecute people who torture people is a crime.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 AM on 04/01/2009
- randyjet I'm a Fan of randyjet 26 fans permalink

Torture actually is effective in a very small number of things. For example to get somebody to DO something, such as openning a safe that has money in it. Another instance is in tactical war situations where you can check the intel quickly and accurately. As in how many troops were in your group? Are there traps? Do they have RPGs? In that case false leads and intel can be checked and punished. Apart from that, there is no way to see if the intel that has been given is worth anything. Most times you will get crap or what the victim thinks you want to hear.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 AM on 04/01/2009
- RealistDem I'm a Fan of RealistDem 2 fans permalink

Youve been watching too much 24.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:56 PM on 03/31/2009

If anybody was successfully saved because of waterboarding it certainly hasnt been shown. My understanding is that the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee has been asking for any such information since 2006 when Democrats got control of the SIC and he has received no answers. Who is it that verifies when it is the right time to use it, that innocents arent subjected to it and then stories made up later to cover up the incident? It's the same thing with spying on our own citizens. The next Watergate is undetectable. Being able to listen in on any phone conversation at will is huge power. Elections can be alterred, business deals controlled, extortion, there's a whole list. That's huge power and power corrupts. How do we know that's not already being done?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:58 PM on 03/31/2009

This is scary! Jason Linkins can't read. What he quotes as the opinion of the Washington Post is clearly a report of what was said in court.

Let's read it again, Jason: "Among the four forms of torture he officially condoned, they said, was pouring water up victims' noses" -

When the paper moves from reporting to editorializing, it makes its opinion quite clear. Typically, on 17 March, it said: "It has already been confirmed that the Bush administration subjected three high-level terrorism suspects to waterboarding, the ancient practice of simulated drowning that has long been considered torture."

Stick to the issue of opposing torture, not vilifying people on the same side of the fence for the sake of getting a story published.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 03/31/2009

Magnificent post. Huff, send this in to the Pulitzer committee.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:05 PM on 03/31/2009
- Wood-Harp I'm a Fan of Wood-Harp 29 fans permalink
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This was one of the best, and most revealing, articles regarding Torture - and the ultimate propagandistic twists of the Orwellian Neo-cons. No matter how many times they redefined their practices, or relied on Legal Memos/Opinions (which were purposely directed, then penned, as covert covers), the realities of their despicable actions can never be erased, or ever actually be deemed Legal.

CIA Destroys Torture Videos/Tapes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhZSlE69h9M

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 03/31/2009
- Roguewolf I'm a Fan of Roguewolf 36 fans permalink
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:07 PM on 03/31/2009
- WFTomba I'm a Fan of WFTomba 2 fans permalink

Oh, I get it. The bad guys torture too, so that means it's OK for us to do it!

I guess it's OK for us to hijack airliners and fly them into the biggest office building in Iran, right? And we should be OK with sawing people's heads off and posting the video on the Internet, huh?

Now that I understand that we can do whatever the worst people in the world do, and still feel good about ourselves, there are so many new possibilities! Think of all that stuff the Japanese did to their captives in WWII--man, we should have been doing that stuff! I bet that would have made us win the war even sooner!

/sarcasm
Torture is wrong. The fact that our enemies do it is part of why they're our enemies. Americans who torture are criminals, and should be treated as such.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 03/31/2009
- JonJ I'm a Fan of JonJ permalink

Great catch Jason, thank you for bringing this to attention. I toured S-21 last year, it tore my heart out. Embarrassed/saddened/ nauseous, all gross understatements of what I felt when I entered the rooms with the water-boarding on display, knowing that my country was practicing some the same tactics as the Khmer Rouge. Yup the Khmer Rouge. Feeling a little nauseous right now just thinking about that again....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:59 PM on 03/31/2009
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torture is torture, no matter who is doing it or what their rationale...
the idea that it is worse when someone else does it because of either scale or who the victim is doesn't wash with me.
as a parent i find it imperative that i teach my children that certain actions are wrong NO MATTER WHAT.
we cannot condemn what we condone

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:05 PM on 03/31/2009
- Mecheng I'm a Fan of Mecheng 17 fans permalink

Now tell us--if your child were kidnapped by a group of non-U.S. citizens that threatened to kill your child, and you could save your child's life by pouring water down one of the kidnapper's nostrils, would you do it? If you wouldn't., I suggest you are not fit to be a parent.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:31 PM on 03/31/2009
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You are operating under the assumption that torture works. That it is ironclad.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:20 PM on 03/31/2009
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I would only do it if you were the kidnapper.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 AM on 04/01/2009

24 is not real life.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:32 AM on 04/01/2009
- maddie0001 I'm a Fan of maddie0001 3 fans permalink

Suppose the child is kidnapped by a group of US citizens - do I get to torture them too? Suppose he got locked up by a corrupt judge receiving kickbacks?

Court Tosses Convictions Of Corrupt Judge
Pennsylvania Overturns Hundreds Of Rulings After Juvenile Court Judge Admits Taking Bribes
ALLENTOWN, Pa., March 26, 2009
Luzerne County Judge Mark Ciavarella denied Klubeck his right to an attorney, presided over a hearing that lasted barely a minute or two, then forced the 13-year-old - only 4-foot-2 and 82 pounds at the time - to spend 48 terrifying days in a youth detention center.

Klubeck was among hundreds of juveniles Ciavarella sent to a private lockup run by PA Child Care LLC. In exchange, prosecutors say, Ciavarella took millions of dollars in kickbacks in one of the most egregious cases of judicial corruption ever seen.

On Thursday, Pennsylvania's highest court overturned hundreds of juvenile convictions issued by Ciavarella, ruling the disgraced judge violated the constitutional rights of youth offenders who appeared in his courtroom without lawyers between 2003 and 2008. On Thursday, Pennsylvania's highest court overturned hundreds of juvenile convictions issued by Ciavarella, ruling the disgraced judge violated the constitutional rights of youth offenders who appeared in his courtroom without lawyers between 2003 and 2008.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:14 AM on 04/01/2009
- AliMB I'm a Fan of AliMB 72 fans permalink
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Part I

I'm not going to argue that waterb0arding isn't t0rture, but for Mr. Linkins to compare the CIA's use of this specific technique to the Khmer's robust t0rture program is the epitome of moral bankruptcy and a lascivious display of politicized logic. From the article:

"His victims -- most of whom were either disgraced members of the Khmer Rouge or their families -- were t0rtured with electric sh0cks, waterb0arding or b e a t i n g to extract a confession, which would implicate new v i c t i m s . After confessing, the victims would be k i l l e d , most often by a sharp bl0w to the back of the head."

The Khmer went far beyond waterb0arding, with more s i n i s t e r motives, which is why the application of a "t0rture" label for their sordid history would be accurate and indisputable. If the gist of Linkins' piece is to call out WaPo for its 'labeling' double standard, even there it may be inaccurate. The paper seems to be relaying what the Prosecutors in Cambodia had legally labeled t0rture ("they say"), not what the newspaper considers t0rture. It is also unclear whether the "waterb0arding" technique was applied in the same manner as the CIA did.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:43 PM on 03/31/2009
- joebloe I'm a Fan of joebloe 38 fans permalink
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OK so if I tie you down and pour water down your nose and throat (in addition to other acts) you will just think happy thoughts about me and put it down to my having a bad day? No harm, no foul.

What kind of sadistic self-centered world do you live in? Personally I would think someone tying me down & "simulated drowning" me is torture.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:52 PM on 03/31/2009
- Roguewolf I'm a Fan of Roguewolf 36 fans permalink
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Your daughter is being held by kidnappers in a underground chamber and she has 12 hours of air and the police have caught one of the kidnappers but he is not talking. What would you do or want the police to do?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:13 PM on 03/31/2009

You've been watching too much "24"--get a grip.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:57 PM on 03/31/2009

"for Mr. Linkins to compare the CIA's use of this specific technique to the Khmer's robust t0rture program is the epitome of moral bankruptcy and a lascivious display of politicized logic. From the article:"

murder is murder, whether you kill one person or half million in the guise of spreading democracy.

torture is torture, and is not defined by the number of victims.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:15 PM on 03/31/2009
- soapington I'm a Fan of soapington 42 fans permalink
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I don't see your point. Clearly there are degrees of torture. The rack is clearly more vicious and damaging than the thumbscrew, but the thumbscrew is still an instrument of torture. In the hierarchy of torture techniques, waterboarding may rank lower than electrodes to the genitals, but it is still torture.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:27 PM on 03/31/2009

Come off it. During the Holy Inquisition waterboarding was one of the torture techniques most often used by the Roman Catholic Church against heretics. Getting someone to confess to heresy (or sexual intercourse with Satan or any of a number of sins) was important for the sinner's soul. If you kill them when they haven't confessed, they die with a mortal sin on their souls and will go to hell. The Church knew that would be wrong. So you get them to confess their sins, they are forgiven, then you kill them so they don't have a chance to sin again, and everything is fine!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:49 PM on 03/31/2009
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I think you just made Mr. Linkins point: "I guess it becomes "torture" when it's being done by genocidal Communist madmen, whose political ideology lacks the beautiful exceptionalism that normally transforms an abhorrent and inhumane act into a patriotic gesture."

It really doesn't matter how many times it happened or what happened afterward or in lieu of.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 03/31/2009

You people who do not see a difference with this group vs. the Bush Administration are the kooks.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:33 PM on 03/31/2009
- Dwst I'm a Fan of Dwst permalink

You are right about the glib equation of the Cambodian qovernment and the American government just because they both condoned torture; it's essentially untrue, and unnecessarily inflammatory. It is, however, interesting that the American press - as if everyone that wrote something aired in print or broadcast somehow was the same, the press - seems to have allowed its vocabulary to be warped to fit the currently politically correct standards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:54 PM on 03/31/2009
- joebloe I'm a Fan of joebloe 38 fans permalink
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Granted there is a degree of scale, but torture and death is still torture and death. Especially to the dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:57 PM on 03/31/2009
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so?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:08 PM on 03/31/2009
- Strepsi I'm a Fan of Strepsi 7 fans permalink

"You people" = 50% of Americans plus everyone else in the world

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:56 PM on 03/31/2009
- kasinca I'm a Fan of kasinca 164 fans permalink
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All of the military veterans and heroes on the Bush Crime Family, including the draft dodges and AWOL cowards, would know what torture is. They would be experts on military intelligence.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:33 PM on 03/31/2009
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