Bush Memo Footnotes Define Waterboarding As Torture

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04/16/09 10:28 PM

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With reporting by Stuart Whatley

A Bush administration memo from 2005, intended to establish a legal basis for aggressive interrogation techniques, contains a footnote that actually describes waterboarding as falling within the administration's definition of torture.

The footnote, found within one of the Office of Legal Council memos released by the Obama administration on Thursday, suggests that officials in the previous White House likely knew that they were torturing terrorism suspects at a time when they claimed to not be involved in such a practice.

Bush officials also acknowledged in a different footnote that for a period of time, waterboarding was "used with far greater frequency" and "intensity" than advised, so much so that medical personnel could not confirm the safety of the detainees. Authors of the memo said they instructed interrogators to change their use of the technique to make it more similar to its practice in Marine Corps training.

The May 10, 2005, memorandum from the attorney general's office to the CIA defines torture as -- among other things -- activity where a subject suffers prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from "the threat of imminent death." From there, waterboarding was justified as a technique that, while possibly qualifying as a "threat of imminent death," had "safeguards" in place "that make actual harm quite unlikely." The qualifier seemed to clear the Bush White House of illegality.

But in a footnote at the bottom of page 43 of that same memo, the authors dropped the formalities. "For purposes of our analysis," the footnote reads, "we will assume that the physiological sensation of drowning associated with the use of the waterboard may constitute a 'threat of imminent death' within the meaning of sections 2340-2340A."

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The admission that waterboarding constitutes a "threat of imminent death," regardless of the safeguards, appears noteworthy. At various points during the Bush presidency, White House officials insisted that waterboarding did not constitute torture. Indeed, throughout the OLC memos, the White House's legal arm sought to advance such an argument.

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But the footnote suggests that even they saw the act as possibly crossing the red line between harsh interrogation and torturous treatment. The distinction is apparently based upon the subject's knowledge that he or she will not be killed in the process of being waterboarded. But, as the footnote reads, even if "the CIA" informs "a detainee on whom this technique is used that he would not be allowed to drown," waterboarding constitutes a "threat of imminent death" -- the same definition used for torture.

Perhaps more troubling is the admission in an earlier footnote that for a period of time, officials involved in waterboarding at detention facilities were performing the technique more severely than was deemed medically safe. On Page 41 of the memo, the authors cite an Inspector General report (it's unclear which one) which notes that "Agency interrogator[s]" had "in some cases" used the waterboard in a manner different than "used in the [the Marine Corps' Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape] SEER training."

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"The difference was in the manner in which the detainee's breathing was obstructed," read the footnote, citing the IG report. "At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose."

The footnote further explains that medical personnel at the detention facility were not comfortable with the implementation of the waterboard in that form. "'According to [medical officials], there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.'"

The memo's authors conclude that after considering the IG report, they implemented "a number of changes in the application of the waterboard, including limits on the frequency and cumulative use of the technique."

All of which means that, for a period of time, these limits were not in place.


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With reporting by Stuart Whatley A Bush administration memo from 2005, intended to establish a legal basis for aggressive interrogation techniques, contains a footnote that actually describes waterbo...
With reporting by Stuart Whatley A Bush administration memo from 2005, intended to establish a legal basis for aggressive interrogation techniques, contains a footnote that actually describes waterbo...
 
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http://www.pubrecord.org/torture/839-what-did-democrats-know-about-bushs-torture-program.html

What Did Democrats Know About Bush's Torture Program?

One day after the Obama administration released four gruesome Bush-era legal opinions that described in shocking detail the torturous methods CIA interrogators were permitted to use to extract information from alleged “high-value” detainees, a majority of Democrats have remained collectively silent on whether the disclosures warrant a full-scale criminal investigation.

By comparison, revelations by the New York Times earlier this week that the National Security Agency, during George W. Bush’s last days in office, went above and beyond the legal limits imposed by Congress on its domestic surveillance activities was met with widespread condemnation by powerful Democratic leaders, who demanded investigations and said those who broke the law must be held accountable.

The silence on the question of accountability among a large majority of Democrats begs the question: were Democrats aware of the CIA’s “enhanced interrogation” program and are refusing to call for a wide-ranging probe because they approved of the torture?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 04/17/2009

Not sure we will never know "who's done it" if investgation is not carried out. The circumstances suggest Democrats were aware. Some may have signed off. Curious, what prompted the release of the memos.

If we must have wars, Personally, I would use torture but wont lie about it. hypothetically: Imagin what the cative would have done. Failing gentle iterrogations, I will torture.

We have a different issue here. we"claim" that we do not torture. Is that a truth?
The other Issue:. If investigated, top guys will go unscathed. Is that "justice for all"?

Concerned1930

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:47 PM on 05/03/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

To those who object to these interrogation techniques, (which in my opinion cross the line to inhumane), is there any interrogation technique beyond a polite request that you would approve of?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:31 PM on 04/17/2009
- research I'm a Fan of research 236 fans permalink

The ones that work: Building a sense of empathy and getting the person to tell you their story. Showing them what is good about Our culture. All that soft squishy so many people think does not work. That's what the successful interrogators used to get useful true information, unlike anyone who tries to bully the prisoner.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

I do not have a background that would allow me to evaluate the contrast between your description of a successful interrogation strategy and the very different type described in the memos. Is your opinion based on professional training and experience such as in a police force or a military or intelligence situation?

Can anyone with this kind of training or experience offer further insight into the effectiveness of the methods? Are there particularly good web sites or books someone could point toward?

If "bullying the prisoner" isn't effective, why do you think the Bush administration did this?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:24 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

Some in this thread have implied that those doing these interrogations had committed "atrocities". Wow, talk about "devaluing the experience of others". In the case of villages where gunmen have come in and murdered all the people..... it's pretty clear that it is an atrocity.

Extended sleep deprivation deserves the same label? I don't think so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 PM on 04/17/2009
- pjburke I'm a Fan of pjburke 63 fans permalink


Close to one hundred detainees have died -- that we know about and are documented -- during 'interrogation.' Likely some number of "ghost" or undocumented and undisclosed detainees have similarly succumbed to 'harsh interrogation' and also died.

Detainees had their genitals sliced with razor blades (also documented).

At the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, women detainees were routinely raped and sodomized. Their children -- very young girls and boys -- were raped and sodomized in front of them... with U.S. Army cameras rolling.

'Atrocities' is an entirely appropriate word.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 PM on 04/18/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

Yes, the events described in the link you gave are atrocious.

Compare apples to apples. What you've described is a set of circumstances that happened before these memos and activities that would not have been approved by the memos. People were prosecuted for that and people further up the command chain should have been prosecuted but weren't.

No-one is condoning what was done at Abu Ghraib. But that is a totally different issue from the situation described in the justice department memo's defining acceptable interrogation methods.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 AM on 04/19/2009
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I was watching Duocheborough in the Morning and Joe was fabricating the truth again. When discussing one incident of a prisoner who was placed in a small room with a stinging poisonous bug, Joe insisted that it was a caterpillar and even joked that it would just "turn into a butterfly." The Doucheborough has been fabricating stuff recently. He continued today his false claim that the DHS report on extremist indicates that the government is now spying on veterans. The report talked about how extremist groups, like the Nazis or KKK, are trying to target returning veterans for recruitment. It never said anything about monitoring veterans, but in Joe's world, that's good enough.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:09 PM on 04/17/2009
- power1 I'm a Fan of power1 4 fans permalink

Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for recipients of these interrogation techniques (torture).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:22 PM on 04/17/2009
- research I'm a Fan of research 236 fans permalink

Then you have no sympathy at all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:42 PM on 04/17/2009
- pjburke I'm a Fan of pjburke 63 fans permalink


then you're a crime-loving, criminal-w­orshipping freak

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:52 PM on 04/18/2009

Power1, sympathy is not the point. Ask anyone who has seen service. We violate Geneva and we offer a green light for OUR men and women overseas to be tortured. Do you have sympathy for THEM now?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:05 AM on 04/23/2009
- research I'm a Fan of research 236 fans permalink

All Human being have an obligation to refuse orders to torture.

Torture is very simple:

deliberately Inflicting pain.

everything else is an excuse.

I feel sorry for those who were convinced to torture against their better judgment.

Their souls are corrupted.

Their only hope is to come forward, tell their stories, face their punishment, and try to atone for the rest of their lives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

Having read the memos, what pain was being inflicted by the approved techniques?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:25 PM on 04/17/2009
- research I'm a Fan of research 236 fans permalink

none, it was all painless.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:43 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

What these inhumane methods are not is painful. What they are is uncomfortable, disorienting, bewildering, difficult, psychologically abusive, demeaning, humiliating, terrifying and probably many other descriptors.... just not painful.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:50 PM on 04/17/2009

Neat, in the News last week there was a story about an American Soldier, accused of killing an Iraqi, he is expected to receive LIFE in Prison!

GWBush managed to kill Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis with his lies about Saddam Hussein's WMDs and ties to Al Quida, and got Hussein executed.

Still not having satisfied his sadistic urges, he and his Administration, oversaw versions of Torture, breaking the laws of both this country and the Geneva Convention. Now President Obama has decided to forgive and forget??? Why? They are above the law, because some people we like may also have to face the music??? Or, he is planning on breaking some of those laws, and doesn't want to set a prescedent??? Because a President is ENTITLED to be above the law???
Because, 'American President ' is just another name for DICTATOR???

I really believed in Obama. That he wanted us to be worthy of being called a Nation of laws, of the people, by the people, and for the people. He can't claim that while advocating that a lowly soldier receive LIFE for one murder, but a President and his underlings get away scott free with all the Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis murdered and other National and International laws broken by the Bush Administration. Sure isn't a very good message to send to the rest of the world. Spain stands alone. I wonder how long before the rest of the world wakes up???

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:54 PM on 04/17/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

By your standards the first soldier that murders a Afagan civilian the Obama now needs to be prosecuted?? You always use the numbers Hundred of Thousand citizen, prove it and most Irag citizens are being killed by the insurgent not American troops. We are a nation of laws but it has been an acceptable practice in war time to suspend certain laws. It has been done By Presidents Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman etc. If you are against all wars I agree with you but if its just Bush you are against then way off base!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:34 PM on 04/17/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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If I go to a zoo and let all the animals out, who is responsible for the ensuing carnage ... me or the animals? Remember that shortly after the invasion the term "fly paper" strategy was used by the Bush Admin., meaning the US troops presence would attract the radicals to a country they were not welcome in before your invasion of choice.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:01 PM on 04/17/2009

First, I was referring to an Iraqi citizen and never said Obama should be prosecuted????

Second, and not even half of those were killed by insurgents. How many times did we lear that whole villages were wiped out by high altitude bombing?

For my use of 'Hundreds of Thousands of civilians, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
(Plenty of different sources quoted on here)

Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Truman, all suspended laws because we were attacked on US soil. I can understand that. Bush instigated Torture, based on a bunch of lies he made up, and attacked a country that was NO threat to us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:34 PM on 04/17/2009
- Emerald1943 I'm a Fan of Emerald1943 263 fans permalink
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Have a little patience here. The President has given immunity to CIA operatives. He has NOT extended that same immunity to members of the Bush administration. Now is not the time with everything else he has on his plate. It will take many months for the Justice Department to put their case together. The President should not do this now, but later after the economy, healthcare, energy, education, etc. are fixed.

Another point, giving the CIA immunity may have been done to secure their testimony later. Get the "grunts" to talk to get the big guys!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:25 PM on 04/17/2009

No one is saying Obama himself has to Prosecute these cases.

Giving the CIA Members immunity is ridiculous if you are referring to those members guilty of torture. "I was following orders" is not a defense. Ask that former German guard who is about to be deported to answer for his torture history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 PM on 04/17/2009

These memos seem obviously incomplete
We already know that a main tactic of our interrogations was sexual abuse. There are many pictures
However these things are not in the released memos

I assure you that the prison guards did not come up with that idea on their own

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 04/17/2009
- pjburke I'm a Fan of pjburke 63 fans permalink


There are other secret documents somewhere.... over 11,000 e-mails just disappeared, remember? They had a reason for routing all of their e-mail through an off-site server (located at the Republican Party headquarters, IIRC) instead of using official executive branch e-mail accounts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 PM on 04/18/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

I wonder if we had one of the 19 hijackers in custody before 9/11 and had water boarded him there by avoiding the war and the loss of 3.000 civilians. We would have saved billions of dollars in war funding not including what that attack did to our own economy. I personally would be happy to have done the torture of this individual. Water boarding is torture!!! But I would use it any day to save the lives of the 3,000 civilians in the Twin Towers. And you the average American should feel safe because of people that will do this to defend you!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 04/17/2009
- pjburke I'm a Fan of pjburke 63 fans permalink


Except that it gets you nothing but a dazed and terrified mook who'll say anything to stop the torture. It does not get reliable intelligence. It gets the suspect to say whatever the suspect thinks you want him to say. They'll make up stories and then law enforcement or military assets go out on a hundred wild goose chases... as happened with Abu Zubayda. Nothing useful... and a bunch of false 'wild goose chase' stories.

TORTURE DOES NOT WORK.

Yours is a FALSE ARGUMENT.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 04/18/2009
- olmossy I'm a Fan of olmossy 17 fans permalink

Each individual terrorist, may not have known about the other terrorist. I believe Osama laughed about the terrorist,with the exception of the pilots, did not know what was to happen. They thought it was just another hi-jacking.
I ask the same question as you on another thread. I ask what they would do to the successful CIA agent. No good answers.
Yes everyone feels safer. Just like they used to feel safer back when Police Officers beat Crooks half to death,then left them at the city limits sign. BUT these same SAFE folks were willing to Find these officers Guilty of Rights Violations, send them to jail, and give huge sums of money to the ex-crooks.
No not me. Don't expect thanks for breaking the law. Local cop or CIA

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:49 AM on 04/24/2009
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http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/04/16/world/20090416-memo-profile.html
disputing Interrogation Memos at The Justice Department
can you image being a human trapped in a blacksite while people fight over how to torture your life.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:40 PM on 04/17/2009

I cannot comprehend how pouring water down someone's nostrils could possibly be construed as anything other than potentially causing death by drowning. Therefore, I also cannot understand how waterboarding could be considered anything less than torture!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 PM on 04/17/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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An apathetic and complacent populace?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:35 PM on 04/17/2009

apathetic or pathetic? - like Pavlov's dogs obeying their masters!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:21 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

The people doing the interrogations could not be successfully prosecuted because they were only executing the carefully justified definition of interrogation rather than torture, which those same memos also define and indentify examples of.

It is the creators and defenders of the policy who must be held accountable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:06 PM on 04/17/2009
- Buddy McCue I'm a Fan of Buddy McCue 134 fans permalink
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I agree.

But it always seems to be the Lynndie Englands that get punished, and never the Donald Rumsfelds.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:16 PM on 04/17/2009

Nonsense
All who engage in torture are guilty.

Under both domestic and international law

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 PM on 04/17/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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I say both. After WW2 the "civilized nations" agreed that "i was just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse ... it's called Nuremberg principle IV(4). Free speech guarantees you the right to disagree but that puts you in opposition with the Nuremberg trails. That's not a place I would hang my hat but to each their own.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:41 PM on 04/17/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

Yes and that applied to the millions of civilians that the Nazis killed in the ovens of the consentration camps. The difference between water boarding 5 or 6 people and the death of 6,000,000 Jews is not morally equal. Americans need to realize when we go to war we do the same thing as our enemy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:52 PM on 04/17/2009
- jake1492 I'm a Fan of jake1492 9 fans permalink

The Nuremberg principal that you refer to applied to people who committed genocide, who killed innocent civilians just because of who they were. This situation is totally different. The interrogation methods were applied to people detained in a hostile act and understood to be key individuals in the terrorist organization with information about imminent attacks. Furthermore, any and all interrogation techniques including things like maiming and killing were not authorized, but only items reasoned to not fit the definition of torture were (however stretched that reasoning was, and it was).

The situations are totally different. This was not genocide. Your analogy is wrong because it tries to apply the principles from a far worse situation to this one without regard for the differences.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:06 PM on 04/17/2009
- pjburke I'm a Fan of pjburke 63 fans permalink


Sorry. The "Nuremburg Defense" of "just following orders" -- which yours is a close variant of -- is an "epic fail."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 PM on 04/18/2009
- TJCole I'm a Fan of TJCole 152 fans permalink
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So is the Bar Association gonna Disbar, this corrupt disgraceful Federal Judge..?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:03 PM on 04/17/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

Many on this post are really upset at what you consider torture. You have watched the movies about how the C.I.A. torture and use unauthorized methods. And I believe that most of you find this accurate. My question is I've been watching these movies for forty years. So how is it you think the Bush was the first to torture. I guarantee that we have been doing this since our country was formed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 PM on 04/17/2009
- VPN I'm a Fan of VPN 100 fans permalink
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That might be true but no Admin has documented it and been so arogantly wrong in their reasoning for it and who they did it too as the B00$h bunch.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:08 PM on 04/17/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

So Bush is wrong for documenting it but others get a pass because they kept it secret. I served under an administration that used the Gulf Of Tonkin incident to send combat forces to Vietnam. In his book Macnamera (Sec. Of Defense) admitted this was a lie. Now 58,000 service men and women sacrificed their lives where is your outrage? If you believe that we don't fight dirty and torture during war time then you live in a fantasy world. Take it from a former Marine we do!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 04/17/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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What very moral standards you have ... you could pretty much justify anything if your moral compass says "if someone else did it before, it's ok". Jebus would be proud.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 PM on 04/17/2009
- wyldthings I'm a Fan of wyldthings 12 fans permalink

Yes I do have good moral standards. And Jesus has nothing to do with it!!! When I was on the battle field I did not see Jesus standing next to me with a weapon. I realize many of you believe he was standing over me and I respect that as your belief. But you will believe that God would wipe out Sodom and Gamora to save man from his own destruction but you believe Jesus would not authorize torture to save 1,000,000 innocent people. Believe me 11907281 veterans like myself have a great respect for life and do not say the things i say with glee. I would be sick physically using these methods but to save lives I would do it!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 PM on 04/17/2009
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What will Democrats do now that they know that Pelosi was aware of it and even sanctioned it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:24 PM on 04/17/2009
- emory I'm a Fan of emory 3 fans permalink

prosecute all of them despite their party. but start with the one's that gave the orders! Bush,Chene­y,Rove,etc­!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:35 PM on 04/17/2009

My opinion has always been that Nancy Pelosi would not move impeachment proceedings forward because there were too many Democrats who would also be prosecuted, as they probably knew exactly what was going on. This includes her. Most of the current congress should go.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 04/17/2009
- dssmn I'm a Fan of dssmn 2 fans permalink

As unpopular as Pelosi is I doubt Obama cares, at least he shouldn't.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 PM on 04/21/2009
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