Notre Dame's Obama Invite Riles Catholic Bishops

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ERIC GORSKI | May 3, 2009 06:48 AM EST | AP

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President Barack Obama makes a surprise appearance at the daily briefing in the Brady Press Briefing Room of the White House in Washington, Friday, May 1, 2009. (AP Photo/Gerald Herbert)

This coming week, Bishop Thomas Wenski of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orlando, Fla., will take the unusual step of celebrating a Mass of Reparation, to make amends for sins against God. The motivation: to provide an outlet for Catholics upset with what Wenski calls the University of Notre Dame's "clueless" decision to invite President Barack Obama to speak at its commencement and receive an honorary doctorate May 17.

The nation's flagship Catholic university's honoring of a politician whose abortion rights record clashes with a fundamental church teaching has triggered a reaction among the nation's Catholic bishops that is remarkable in scope and tone, church observers say.

At least 55 bishops have publicly denounced or questioned Notre Dame in recent weeks, employing an arsenal of terms ranging from "travesty" and "debacle" to "extreme embarrassment."

The bishops' response is part of a decades-long march to make abortion the paramount issue for their activism, a marker of the kind of bishops Rome has sent to the U.S. and the latest front in a struggle over Catholic identity that has exposed rifts between hierarchy and flock.

Bishops who have spoken out so far account for 20 percent of the roughly 265 active U.S. bishops _ a minority, but more than double the number who suggested five years ago that then-Democratic presidential hopeful and Catholic John Kerry should either be refused Communion or refrain from it because of his abortion stance.

"I think they do believe the chips are down," said James Hitchock, a history professor at St. Louis University. "The election has changed the whole landscape. Now we have a strongly pro-abortion administration in power, and he's in a position to achieve what we've been trying to stave off now for years."

As for Wenski, he issued a statement and then came up with the Mass idea after angry Notre Dame graduates from central Florida asked for guidance about how to respond, he said in an interview.

"I figured, 'I'm a bishop _ I'm not going to tell them to attack Notre Dame with a pitchfork,'" said Wenski, who is not among the nation's more confrontational bishops. "I'm going to tell them to go pray."

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Wenski said he will not "preach a tirade against Notre Dame" during the Monday night Mass at Orlando's Cathedral of St. James. What must be atoned for, Wenski said, is complacency among U.S. Catholics about the legal killing of unborn children, which contributed to the climate that allowed Notre Dame to think it was all right to honor Obama.

Almost immediately after Notre Dame invited Obama and he accepted, anti-abortion and conservative Catholic groups launched protests, and bishops began either making statements or releasing letters written to the university president, the Rev. John Jenkins.

Former U.S. ambassador to the Vatican Mary Ann Glendon turned down a prestigious Notre Dame medal last week because she was to have shared the stage with Obama.

The university has emphasized that Obama will be honored as an inspiring leader who broke a historic racial barrier _ not for his positions on abortion or embryonic stem cell research.

U.S. bishops have long been at the forefront of opposing legal abortion, but it's never been their sole focus. During the 1980s, the bishops issued pastoral letters on nuclear weapons, poverty and the economy, influenced by the late Chicago Cardinal Joseph Bernardin's concept of a "consistent ethic of life."

Many Catholic bishops, however, worried that abortion was getting shortchanged. Those who argue abortion trumps everything say that other issues are irrelevant without the beginning of life and that things like capital punishment and war are sometimes justified.

Bishops hammered that home in November 2007 with a statement on faithful citizenship that said: "The direct and intentional destruction of innocent human life is always wrong and is not just one issue among many."

Timothy Barnes, a Colgate University political scientist, said the Notre Dame clash gives bishops a chance to promote two of their top priorities: re-emphasizing abortion at a time when the issue is waning, and stressing the Catholic character of Catholic universities.

"If you put yourself in their shoes and see Notre Dame honoring a new president, a popular president, who seems to be a new kind of political figure trying to emphasize new issues and post-partisan politics, that would be something they would want to respond to pretty aggressively," he said. "The old divisions of the old politics, in certain sectors, is focused on abortion."

Polls show Catholics giving high job approval ratings to Obama, and Catholic attitudes about abortion and stem-cell research largely mirror the public's.

"I think the bishops who believe abortion is the ultimate litmus test look at the polls and realize Catholics are not listening to them," said the Rev. Mark Massa, co-director of the Curran Center for American Catholic Studies at Fordham University. "They're playing a very dangerous game because they do not have the moral authority they had before the sex abuse crisis, and they're trying to find a toehold and get heard."

So far, the Notre Dame saga doesn't seem to be resonating. Only about half of Catholics surveyed by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life from April 23 to 27 had heard about the controversy.

About half of U.S. Catholics supported Notre Dame, 28 percent said the school was wrong and 22 percent had no opinion, the poll found. People who attend Mass frequently were more likely to oppose the university's stance, and also gave Obama lower job performance marks.

R. Scott Appleby, a Notre Dame history professor, said the bishops' outspokenness points to a new litmus test _ not on whether abortion should be legal but over how to fight it.

"The litmus test is on 'How do we best change the policies and work for a culture of life?" Appleby said. "Many Catholics want to be open to at least discuss with the bishops the best way to move forward on our common goal. But the bishops have imposed this particular approach and have not felt it necessary to consult the faithful fully on that."

Several bishops have taken a harder line on perceived dissent. To them, Notre Dame is defying a 2004 bishops' statement on politics that says: "The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions."

The bishops' response to Notre Dame also is part of the legacy of the man who appointed so many of them, said the Rev. Tom Reese, senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University. Pope John Paul II sought loyal servants who "were willing to take on the world _ willing to argue and debate and confront people," Reese said.

Wenski, the Orlando bishop, said bishops are not angry at Obama in this case, but the university leadership. Yet their disapproval "is also an expression of our frustration" with Obama administration decisions on funding for overseas groups that perform abortions, expanded embryonic stem cell research and "conscience clause" protections for health workers, he said.

On being a voice on abortion, Wenski said: "We've been doing this pretty consistently. Perhaps in the past, some bishops have been a little bit too indulgent of what we tolerate in some of the dissent."

Wenski also has spoken out about banning torture and finding a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants _ issues he said can be common causes for bishops and the White House.

"Bishops are like most other people," he said. "We really don't want to look for conflicts or fights. "But this has been egregious enough that we have to be clear. We're standing on principle, not looking for a battle."

This coming week, Bishop Thomas Wenski of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orlando, Fla., will take the unusual step of celebrating a Mass of Reparation, to make amends for sins against God. The motivati...
This coming week, Bishop Thomas Wenski of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orlando, Fla., will take the unusual step of celebrating a Mass of Reparation, to make amends for sins against God. The motivati...
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I have written to the White House suggesting that since Church and State are to be separate, and the battle over President Obama's policy is religiously sponsored, that we as taxpayers should not foot the bill for sending Mr. Obama to Notre Dame. If they want him, truly want him and not just to put a feather in the cap of always having the new president for commencement, then Notre Dame should pay his expenses. These are not minor mind you, they include flying AF-1, the support Cargo Plane with cars, Secret Service, security equipment, and the hours of labor preparing for his arrival, as well as overnite housing if needed, etc. etc.

Separate Church from State

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 05/14/2009
- dadw5boys I'm a Fan of dadw5boys 281 fans permalink
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States with Anti- Abortion Laws will have to take Urine Test of all women leaving the state.

Equal Protection under the law demands that all women be subject to the law and not only the poor women.

Women who can access wealth can hop a plane to the Islands, Mexico or Eroupe.

.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:58 AM on 05/10/2009
- ohiodem250 I'm a Fan of ohiodem250 27 fans permalink

While I am upset that a small minority of loud-mouthed U.S. Catholic bishops have created a controversy surrounding my faith over the offer from my University to my President to speak at commencement, I want to ask all of the Catholic bashers on this site (my, my there are a lot of you!) to remember that this controversy was started when a Catholic priest asked Obama to speak. While you may lament the fact, as do I, that a group of human beings conspired to hide a sexual abuse scandal - you must remember that it was the human beings NOT the institution that covered up the crimes. I think George W. Bush is a war criminal for his use of torture BUT I do not defame the United States of America or it's institutions. I speak out against the individuals who made up that government and I worked to get them out. The same is true of the Catholic Church. Because it is made up of human beings it has human failings - sometimes large and egregious. But we work to make that better. So please, fight the individuals - do not fight the institution. Because there are many Catholics who have recently joined the Dem ranks b/c of Obama - let's not offend them by belittling them or their faith on these comment boards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:30 PM on 05/04/2009
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"You must remember that it was the human beings NOT the institution that covered up the crimes."
Of course it was the institution that conspired to cover up those hideous crimes, and to shield and promote the people who committed them. Covering up the crimes was a long-standing matter of POLICY.
What nonsense you talk, claiming your institution represents the moral authority of God and then blithely excusing all its deliberate and determined "human failings."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:32 AM on 05/05/2009
- ohiodem250 I'm a Fan of ohiodem250 27 fans permalink

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have put a disclaimer on my post: only reply if you have any ability to think critically through an issue!

I'm sorry it is not apparent to you that an institution is not inherently corrupt because of the corruption of individuals within the system. If that was true, American Constitutional Democracy would have been a failed experiment. But it is not because we root out those who have failed. See my example about torture (that was indeed a policy of the United States - should we deny the promise of America that was defined by our founding documents because of misguided policy determined by individuals? What say you?)

Similarly, it is the duty of good Catholic lay people to demand that those clergy who either abused or covered up abuse be thrown out of the Church. But to say to people of faith that their faith has lost its meaning because of the actions of mortal human beings is the true nonsense and you prove your handle correctly: "ProfessorDuh," teacher of the easy answer.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:04 PM on 05/05/2009
- ohiodem250 I'm a Fan of ohiodem250 27 fans permalink

PS - in the Catholic Church there is a huge difference between managerial policy and Church Doctrine. It is not Church Doctrine to cover up sexual abuse. Thus, the institution did not cover up the crimes, individuals did.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:08 PM on 05/05/2009

His name is PRESIDENT Obama. Please give him the respect he deserves because he is fighting day and night to keep our country afloat and I will be proud to hear him at my commencement in just a two weeks. And abortion should not be a national issue, why don't you put your energy into making it a state's medical licensing and boards issue?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:03 PM on 05/04/2009
- Annieke I'm a Fan of Annieke 15 fans permalink

Please raise your hands if you take the bisshops serious?

Anyone????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:30 AM on 05/04/2009
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He's the PRESIDENT, you bunch of intolerant bas-tards.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 AM on 05/04/2009
- redkim I'm a Fan of redkim 34 fans permalink
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Yes, he's the President. But it is not an automatic thing that the President gets an honorary thing from Notre Dame.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:28 AM on 05/04/2009
- chriss0114 I'm a Fan of chriss0114 25 fans permalink
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The real point is the bishops are a bunch of hippocrits-they have and still honor those who go against their other teachings yet have no problem with that

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 AM on 05/04/2009
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'Yes, he's the President. But it is not an automatic thing that the President gets an honorary thing from Notre Dame"

That's up to Notre Dame..... not you.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ... Lord Acton

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:23 AM on 05/04/2009

In fact, it IS an automatic thing. Notre Dame routinely invites new Presidents to its commencements and, at Notre Dame, that always means being awarded an honorary degree.

Eisenhower got one in 1960; newly-elected President Kennedy came in '61 (but having received an honorary degree as a Senator, he was given another honor); Johnson and Nixon were no-shows; Ford received one; newly-elected President Carter came in '77; newly-elected President Reagan came in '81; Bush I declined his first year, but received one later; Clinton declined; newly-elected President Bush came in '01; and now newly-elected President Obama in '09.

It's not automatic that they accept, but it's pretty clear that Notre Dame makes it standard practice to reach out to Presidents in their first months in office and, if they do accept, they also get an honorary degree.

In other words, the message that Notre Dame is sending by inviting Barack Obama to receive an honorary degree is that he's the newly elected President of the United States of America.

This wasn't clear in the case of Bush II, a man with a proclivity to execute people (including two people the Vatican intervened on behalf of) and who catapulted to the GOP nomination courtesy of Bob Jones University which teaches that Catholicism is a cult. If Notre Dame could swallow crow and give an honorary degree to George W. Bush, that proves it's an automatic thing and not a well-considered choice.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 AM on 05/08/2009
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97% of the seniors, the people who President Obama will be speaking directly to, approve of his invitation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:55 AM on 05/04/2009
- weatherwaxx I'm a Fan of weatherwaxx 259 fans permalink

This is a church that will excommunicate a mother and doctor for arranging an abortion for a 9-year old girl --NINE YEARS OLD! -- who was raped and impregnated by her stepfather ... but allows the rapist to remain a member of the church.

A church that threatens women with hell if they use birth control to avoid becoming pregnant with kids they cannot support, and condemns them again if they terminate a pregnancy that resulted from the medieval birth control methods allowed by a bunch of supposedly celibate men who never have to deal with the reality of unwanted pregnancy..

This is a church that colluded with Hitler in his murder of millions of Jews, gays, gypsies, and other 'undesirables" and took half a century to apolgize for doing so.

A church that itself murdered millions of people during the Inquisition.

A "church" that conspired to protect rapists who were preying on chidren--something that has been going on for centuries and is still going on because they don't want to have to pay any more reparation.

I don't know about the rest of you, but from where I stand, this is an organization that has about as much to do with Jesus' teachings as an octopus has to do with tap-dancing.

President Obama will go and speak to the students at Notre Dame. This is about the future, the students are that future. The yowling in the background is a fading past.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 AM on 05/04/2009
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Exactly! Well said.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 AM on 05/04/2009
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[applauds]

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 AM on 05/05/2009
- Ginger5 I'm a Fan of Ginger5 3 fans permalink

So if President Obama can't made to be comfortable at Notre Dame becuz of a single issue, then who can be comfortable at such a rigid place. BOYCOTT Notre Dame athletics

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:04 AM on 05/04/2009

Their athletics nor it's athletes have anything to do with the religious practices of the school. Athletes of Muslim faith have been to and graduated from Notre Dame. I'm sure most of the athletes respect and even voted for Obama. This is not their fault for seeking such a high education. Kinda the whole "blame the parents not the child" scenario.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:53 PM on 05/04/2009

I'm afraid I'm going to have to engage in the unpleasant task of interjecting an actual fact here...and point out that Notre Dame invited him and that other people are protesting this and claiming that Notre Dame is NOT rigidly adhering to Catholic principles.

I won't go so far as to say that means you have to cheer for Notre Dame athletics, but it does kind of sort of cut against your argument...to the extent I could follow.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:25 AM on 05/08/2009

I say that these outraged hypocritical Catholics should put their fat wallets where their mouths are. They should build a world class orphanage system.Where pregnant women or girls can go and get help during and even after pregnancy and provide adoption services for them as needed.THAT would be the Christian thing to do.Much easier to curse the darkness than to shine a truly Christian light on the problem.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:44 AM on 05/04/2009
- Annieke I'm a Fan of Annieke 15 fans permalink

They have lost all that money in the scandal incolving priests and young boys.

Well, from their point of view a wise decision to focus on the boys: no matter how often you sexually abuse them, they will not get pregnant.

No pregnancy...no abortion.

As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church lost all their credibility when the bisshops looked the other way protecting the priests and ignoring the little boys who are traumatized for life.

Some faith.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 AM on 05/04/2009
- EyeballKid I'm a Fan of EyeballKid 6 fans permalink
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If the Catholic Church is so vitally interested in promoting a "Culture of Life" focus in their institutions, why aren't they asking an even more important question: How can we contribute to the control of human populations on the planet so that those our ecosphere can survive human habitat?

What are we to do? Hope that God will control the ever-increasing population of humans? Are we to allow our full reproductive potential to kill the survival of our very species? What kind of madness assumes that birth control and the abortion question supercede the very survival of the species through endangering the resources upon which we rely?

This is where the Catholic Church turns logic and reason on its head. Population control is the far more pervasive issue than "birth control", yet the Church refuses to recognize this simple fact in an effort to blind itself to the forest in favor of the trees.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 AM on 05/04/2009
- weatherwaxx I'm a Fan of weatherwaxx 259 fans permalink

Logic? Reason? The catholic church?

What one thing doesn't belong with the other two?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 AM on 05/04/2009
- ohiodem250 I'm a Fan of ohiodem250 27 fans permalink

Read Malthus - God did create such controls: they are called war and disease. Any other god/nature-playing you want to do today?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:09 PM on 05/04/2009
- nana4g I'm a Fan of nana4g 109 fans permalink

What I find most egregious is the Catholic Church enabling unwed teen pregnancies, which means they are engaging in sex without marriage, to bring forth children who are then abused, neglected and die of mortal injuries. And the Catholic Church does not condone artificial contraception or sex education. We would not need abortions if the Catholic Church would be more respectful and supportive of women and taught them to respect themselves.

I think this "jihad" which the Catholic Church is promulgating against US politicians who are Catholic and ProLife and against the President is wrong and non Christian. They are the government officials who provide the most beneficial social policy that supports and protects the dignity of life after it is brought into the world.

And so, I think, the tax exempt status of the Catholic Church should be revoked. Roe vs Wade is a Law and, though the Catholic Church does not respect the law against child molestation and pornography enough to report their priest offenders instead of protect them, they really need to face the fact that the law exists and if they want to be helpful they should reinstate all of their social programs of assistance instead of spending money on "jihads".

Finally, if anything happens to my President at Notre Dame, as a result of some crazed Catholilc ProLifer, 80% of Americans will never, never forgive that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 AM on 05/04/2009
- redkim I'm a Fan of redkim 34 fans permalink
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Artificial birth control is widely available and many Catholics use it. Many Catholics also get abortions.

Do you mean to tell me that if the Church suddenly decided to agree with what many Catholics are already doing, in terms of artificial contraception, that magically the number of abortions would go down?

Also, do you have any back up to your claim that unwed teens abuse their children disproportionately?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:25 AM on 05/04/2009
- luvobama I'm a Fan of luvobama 263 fans permalink

It is not widely available in thrid world countries and many regions in the bible belt in this country. Look at statistics and demographics. They tell a story.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 AM on 05/04/2009
- CarmanK I'm a Fan of CarmanK 41 fans permalink

Yes, actually it is true- information and sex-education has resulted in fewer abortions. There is data to back that up. President Carter and Obama's positions on abortions are the same. The more people know, the more they have access to better health care, the more they practice responsible intercourse through contraception the fewer unwanted pregnancies, the fewer abortions. The Catholic people are the Church and it is comprised of sinners and saints like all societies. The red hats (bishops) are political appointees who are either extraordinary practitioners of faith or phoney, arrogant souls who only mouth empty words. I am a Catholic and my faith is unshakeable, my church is beautiful, generous, and loving; cruel, arrogant and self righteous. Fortunately, the scholars at Notre Dame know which side of the Catholic spectrum they choose to exhibit to the world.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:16 AM on 05/04/2009
- redkim I'm a Fan of redkim 34 fans permalink
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Also, what makes you think that people who disregard Church teaching on sex outside of marriage are all of a sudden going to follow Church teaching when it comes to abortion?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 AM on 05/04/2009
- bebrave I'm a Fan of bebrave 5 fans permalink
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If I remember correctly A ddressing they Don't like but Un dressing they'll pay for.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 AM on 05/04/2009
- wmholt I'm a Fan of wmholt 30 fans permalink
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I think that it is unlikely that President Obama is the only President who had policy positions that the Catholic Church disagrees with.

Do the Republicans get a free pass to Notre Dame just because they *say* they are pro-life? I noticed that when they had the Presidency, the Congress, and the Supreme Court in their favor, the Republicans did not even try to stop abortion.

They just dust off the abortion issue and trot it out every 2 or 4 years, knowing all the while that they will do nothing about it. I guess being liars and hypocrites is okay with those at Notre Dame making these protests.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 05/03/2009
- luvobama I'm a Fan of luvobama 263 fans permalink

Where's their outrage over the adulterous behavior of these supposedly pro lifers?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 PM on 05/03/2009
- nana4g I'm a Fan of nana4g 109 fans permalink

Where was their outrage when children already born into the world were denied health care through SCHIPS under those ProLifers last Administration???

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 AM on 05/04/2009
- bebrave I'm a Fan of bebrave 5 fans permalink
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"Do the Republicans get a free pass to Notre Dame just because they *say* they are pro-life?"

Only if they say it by tapping their foot three times while in a bathroom stall at the airport.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:50 PM on 05/03/2009
- redkim I'm a Fan of redkim 34 fans permalink
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I think a LOT of people have been snowed by the so-called "pro-life" stance of the Republican party, and the Catholic bishops in the US are no exception. My hope is that they finally wake up and realize that the religious right, at least in politics, has no intention of working toward their desires.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 AM on 05/04/2009
- luvobama I'm a Fan of luvobama 263 fans permalink

Much like the Catholic church, republicans prey on the ignorant masses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 05/04/2009
- ohiodem250 I'm a Fan of ohiodem250 27 fans permalink

As I go through my copy of "Go Forth and Do Good: Memorable Notre Dame Commencement Addresses," I see that Condoleeza Rice spoke in 1995 and George W. Bush spoke in 2001. As I seem to recall, Pope John Paul II called the Iraq War unjust. Although Bush spoke before the start of that war, shouldn't these same bishops be calling for the revocation of Bush's honorary degree? As a corollary, as a pro-choice, Obama-supporting ND grad, am I in danger of having my B.A. revoked?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 05/04/2009
- redkim I'm a Fan of redkim 34 fans permalink
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Let me ask you a sincere question:

If you were on the committee to decide, would you give Obama an honorary degree? What criteria would factor into your decision?

For my part, I wouldn't and neither would I have given President Bush an honorary degree. For me, they would have to do something more than get themselves elected to the Presidency. I would give it to someone who has made an outstanding contribution in his or her field. Say, Bob Dylan, for instance. :)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:13 PM on 05/04/2009

Where was the outrage from these Bishops when their church was covering up Priests molesting boys .

Frankly the Catholic Church has no right to criticize anyone when it comes to morality especially when they advocate the most backwards policies such as their stance against contraception.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:46 PM on 05/03/2009
- bebrave I'm a Fan of bebrave 5 fans permalink
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Oh yeah that's what I meant. It just came out wrong

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 PM on 05/03/2009
- weatherwaxx I'm a Fan of weatherwaxx 259 fans permalink

It wasn't just priests molesting boys. There were just as many girls and women who were sexually abused.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:47 AM on 05/04/2009
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'Where was the outrage from these Bishops when their church was covering up Priests molesting boys'

Good question, and good luck in getting an answer!

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ... Lord Acton

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:20 AM on 05/04/2009
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