Saudi Judge: Slapping Your Spendthrift Wife Is OK

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ABDULLAH SHIHRI | 05/11/09 02:18 PM | AP

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RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A Saudi judge told a conference on domestic violence that a man has the right to slap a wife who spends money wastefully and said women were as much to blame as men for increased spousal abuse, a Saudi newspaper reported.

The remarks do not carry the weight of law, as they were made out of court. But such public pronouncements by Saudi judges _ who are also Islamic clerics _ are often widely respected.

A rights activist decried the remarks and said she and other campaigners viewed them as the latest setback in women's efforts to gain the right to vote, drive, freely participate in politics and be protected from violence. Activists have become more vocal in recent years in their criticism of cases involving women's rights, including what many see as the religious police's harsh enforcement of the segregation of sexes.

"If a person gives 1,200 Saudi riyals ($320) to his wife and she spends 900 riyals ($240) to purchase an abaya (head-to-toe robe) from a brand shop and if her husband slaps her on the face as a reaction to her action, she deserves that punishment," Judge Hamad Al-Razine was quoted as saying by the English-language Arab News newspaper on Sunday.

The comments at a recent conference were given as part of an explanation for an increase in domestic violence in the country. The judge said women were equally responsible for the increase, the newspaper quoted him as saying.

The paper did not say exactly when the conference was held. The judge could not be reached for comment on Monday.

Women in the audience loudly protested the judge's remarks, the newspaper said.

Saudi Arabia bars women from voting, except for chamber of commerce elections in two cities in recent years, and no woman can sit in the kingdom's Cabinet. Women also cannot drive or travel without permission from a male guardian.

Sohaila Zenelabideen Hammad, spokeswoman of the Saudi National Center for Human Rights, told the Associated Press on Monday that the judge's remarks are reason for concern for being "too extreme."

"It is not acceptable, it is even forbidden in Islam to beat a woman on her face. ... No matter what the woman does, the man has no right whatsoever and under any circumstances to beat his wife on the face," said Hammad, who was not at the conference.

"Regrettably, there is a common understanding in the Arab and Islamic world that man is the master who looks down on the woman and has the right to do whatever he wants to her. This is wrong," Hammad said.

She said she was to attend a meeting later Monday with members of UNICEF, the U.N. agency for children, to discuss the issue.

___

Associated Press Writer Omar Sinan contributed to this report from Cairo.

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A Saudi judge told a conference on domestic violence that a man has the right to slap a wife who spends money wastefully and said women were as much to blame as men for in...
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A Saudi judge told a conference on domestic violence that a man has the right to slap a wife who spends money wastefully and said women were as much to blame as men for in...
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Various views of Saudi Arabia, since we rarely get to see them. I hope this shows some contrast in Saudi women's lives--those who are happy with their lives, those who have mixed feelings, and those who are unhappy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbvvZs_0Zc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss9dGC076_U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SviggsyPaN8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrmgiWBGI2M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWroPVmAQE&feature=related

If you ever get a chance to watch the Anthony Bourdain show in full, watch it! Great show.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:29 PM on 05/12/2009
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I should add, as a woman, I find the differences in their clothing and attitudes about their clothing, particularly what should be worn in the home around men they do not know, very interesting. The woman in the first video is completely covered and says this is the way women should be around most men. The women in Anthony Bourdain's video, have their heads and all their hair covered. The interior decorator is not covered at all in her home, and wears an abaya, but only a scarf, which shows her bangs, when she goes out in public.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:23 AM on 05/13/2009

This is the fate the Arab people. The least civilized of all modern civilizations. This is the Shame of the Saudi People, and the Royal Family (more like the Retarded Family). If this judge or this community had any self respect, they would first take up the issues of Cheating husbands, when these courts allow the Wives of these men to Hang them for their adultery, or Hangs the men for Rape of women instead of letting them get off the hook without even a slap on the wrist, it would have the right to make judgments
like this. misogynistic

UNTIL THEN THE SAUDI CROWN, THE COURTS, THE GOVERNMENT, ARE ALL CLOWN COLLEGES FOR THE MOST DESPICABLE MISOGYNISTIC SOCIETY IN THE MODERN WORLD.

AND TO THINK THEY CLAIM HERITAGE OF THE ISLAMIC RELIGION, AND THE PROPHET. WHEN YOU HAVE SUCH JACK A$$E$ HIJACKING THE LEADERSHIP OF A MAJOR RELIGION, NO WONDER IT TURNS MILITANT.

THIS FAMILY IS VERY CLOSE FRIENDS WITH BUSH FAMILY OF THE US, TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THE BUSH'S DOESN'T IT.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 05/12/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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"In his annual speech marking Saudi Arabia's National Day, the king first described threats to Islam from within its ranks. Later he denounced specifically those clergy who ridicule Islam by issuing perverse fatwas.

He particularly criticized the clergy who issued edicts against the owners of satellite television for airing shows thought to be salacious during Ramadan (the holy month in Islam) and, on one occasion, an especially bizarre edict focusing on Mickey Mouse. The cleric issuing these edicts was later divested of his power by King Abdullah."
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/12/ahmed.saudi.women/index.html#cnnSTCText

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 PM on 05/12/2009
- bettyx1138 I'm a Fan of bettyx1138 23 fans permalink
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why don't international human rights groups make women's treatment in SA, Iran, Pakistan, etc more of an issue? This is so profoundly wrong and we in the west tend to accept it as "cultural differences" --- BUT ITS NOT!

this really makes my blood boil.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:48 PM on 05/12/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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Because many human rights group members have been conditioned to believe that multiculturalism requires accepting all indigenous costumes, no matter how vile.
Then there's the fear of being called an islamophobe for those who dare to criticize some of the incredibly savage Shariut laws.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:29 AM on 05/13/2009
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This is the basic definition most human rights' groups accept:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/human-rights/universal-declaration-of-human-rights/page.do?id=1031003

Here is an article about how that definition may need to be changed to meet the problems many people are currently facing:

http://www.globalexchange.org/about/newhumanrights.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 AM on 05/13/2009
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I disagree. If anything, human rights' groups do not take culture into consideration. An example would be the death penalty. Every human rights' group I have given money to, volunteered for, or been a member of has opposed the death penalty, even though my personal feelings on this subject are mixed. Opposing the death penalty altogether leaves the multicultural argument out of the picture. They can say that the "chop-chop squares" in Saudi Arabia, where public beheadings and amputations occur for criminal punishments, are just as inhumane, as lethal injection. There is no cultural argument, that one way of being put to death is more humane and civil than another. It's clear. Being put to death is inhumane, but the highest court in our land disagrees, doesn't it?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 AM on 05/13/2009
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Human rights' groups make women's issues in Saudi Arabia a HUGE issue, and they have for years:

http://www.cdhr.info/

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/saudia14717.htm

http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/02/07/saudis_pressured_to_grant_women_rights/9955/

On its website, Amnesty International has pages about human rights' violations against women in Saudi Arabia. I would give the lead here, but it takes up half a page.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:23 AM on 05/13/2009

I'm stuck by the fact that this story has netted 134 comments as I write. Just beneath it on the "world' page is the story of the torture of al-Libi, which was both reprehensible and devised to supply a totally fraudulent rationale for invading Iraq, resulting in the devastation of that nation's infrastructure, the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the dispersal of millions more. This story, as I write, has drawn 58 comments. I'd like to think that this discrepancy speaks to the intensity of our desire to defend Arab women from abuse, but our abuse of the Iraqi civilian population, women included, belies that. I rather think the discrepancy is more likely a retreat from responsibility, a tendency to dodge our own guilt, and indulge in the usual diversion of using the misdeeds of the Saudi male to cast a shadow on Muslims in general. While so many are congratulating themselves for living in a country where slapping women is frowned upon, which is itself news to many an abused American wife and girlfriend, the story of al-Libi stares back at them. We live in a nation that committed unspeakable torture to contrive a rationale for further ventures into the unspeakable; even now, the shooting of five American soldiers by one of their own, demonstrates the ongoing effects of the horror we've unleashed. What happens when men like him and Steven Green are returned to American cities, to their wives and girlfriends?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:59 PM on 05/12/2009
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Thank you for this post!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 05/12/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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"The term apologist means denying or even justifying events and activities, while blaming others."
Longtimegone--- bingo.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:00 PM on 05/12/2009

What did I deny? Nothing? For what did I apologize? Nothing. What I did point out was that 174 comments, as I write, were posted on face slapping in Saudi Arabia; 64, as I write on the torture of al-Libi to obtain false information as a rationale for a war in which tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of Arab women were killed and millions displaced. If there is evasion therein, it is with you, leading the charge here, feigning concern for the women of Saudi Arabia, while ignoring the mayhem and murder unleashed against their Arab sisters in Iraq. Someone as proud of their rational intellect as yourself, shooting fish in a barrel all the day long while the supposed superiority of your Western values needs defending; no longer surprising. The more the name changes, the more things stay the same.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 AM on 05/13/2009
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O.K., people, let's read this article, again:

1. This happened in Saudi Arabia.
2. When the judge made the comment, "Women in the audience loudly protested." They disagreed with the judge, spoke up for what they believed in, and loudly put down his words in PUBLIC. There is no mention that these women were dragged out of the meeting, beaten, slapped, jailed, told to shut up, or any other such reaction. Obviously, women do not have to be subservient to men in all of Saudi culture, do they?
3. "The remarks do not carry the weight of law, as they were made out of court. But such public pronouncements by Saudi judges _ who are also Islamic clerics _ are often widely respected." The judge was not pronouncing law, when he made these comments, and, although these clerics are often highly respected, the women who protested loudly were not afraid to show disrespect, were they?
4. "It is not acceptable, it is even forbidden in Islam to beat a woman on her face. ... No matter what the woman does, the man has no right whatsoever and under any circumstances to beat his wife on the face," said Hammad. So, the Muslim religion does not support this behavior.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:08 AM on 05/12/2009
- SlithyTove I'm a Fan of SlithyTove 11 fans permalink

1. I am sure it should not matter to us because it happened in Saudi Arabia.

2. I suppose the fact that women have no civic rights there (cannot vote, cannot drive, cannot show their faces in public, cannot travel without male permission, on and on, ad nauseum) is only a minor point -- after all, the women in the audience were able to 'loudly protest' without being beaten silly as they should have been.

3. By this argument, if Sc alia were to state his personal opinion that blacks should not be allowed to vote (these words clearly not carrying the weight of law), black members in the audience should feel lucky to be able to voice their (clearly disrespectful) dissent without getting police dogs set on them.

4. "Not the face! Not the face! Break her arm instead, that's not prohibited!"

Clearly, you are more Texas than Mom. Let's hear from you after your husband converts and moves you to Saudi Arabia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:00 PM on 05/12/2009
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My concern is with the posts I have read on this thread. They are some of the most ethnocentric and xenophobic responses I have ever read on HP, and, unfortunately, they are being written in the name of liberalism. When did liberals start branding all people the same? When did liberals read an article and paint a culture of people of one mind set because of one article they read?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:13 PM on 05/12/2009
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"4. "It is not acceptable, it is even forbidden in Islam to beat a woman on her face. ... No matter what the woman does, the man has no right whatsoever and under any circumstances to beat his wife on the face," said Hammad. So, the Muslim religion does not support this behavior."

Shouldn't beating of any bodily region be forbidden? Why stop at the face? Could it be that a black and blue face is a public indicator of what an emasculated child the woman's husband is?

"3. "The remarks do not carry the weight of law, as they were made out of court. But such public pronouncements by Saudi judges _ who are also Islamic clerics _ are often widely respected." The judge was not pronouncing law, when he made these comments, and, although these clerics are often highly respected, the women who protested loudly were not afraid to show disrespect, were they?"

So, as long as the women aren't beaten, it is somehow OK in your mind for influential religious and governmental figures to condone savagery and misogyny?

"Obviously, women do not have to be subservient to men in all of Saudi culture, do they?"

You've got to be kidding me. The story outlined their disenfranchisement, lack of ability to engage in normal everyday behavior like driving, and the list goes on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 PM on 05/12/2009
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You're painting with a mighty large brush.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:13 PM on 05/12/2009
- Furby I'm a Fan of Furby 66 fans permalink
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So what's your point?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 05/12/2009
- richdibo I'm a Fan of richdibo 21 fans permalink
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For more insight, Google "Ayaan Hirsi Ali" and her book "The Caged Virgin."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:00 AM on 05/12/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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GASP... but...but.... Hirsi Ali is not politically correct!!! How dare you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 05/12/2009
- bub26 I'm a Fan of bub26 2 fans permalink

They don't allow women out of the house without a male chaperon. Why in the world would they allow the women to spend the $ when their chaperons can do it for them?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:49 AM on 05/12/2009
- esgabel I'm a Fan of esgabel 31 fans permalink
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call this what it is...as in all macho based countries...these men are afraid of women, letting a woman do what she choses means a man can be rejected, a man might be outpaced a man cannot maintain control. Men have hid behind religion all over the world to subjugate women...but the truth is the truly confident man is not afraid of the truly confident woman. Let's call it what it is -- fear...all these men are insecure.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:05 AM on 05/12/2009
- Frogfoot I'm a Fan of Frogfoot 8 fans permalink

Well, it's getting harder and harder to make the case that every culture is worthy of equal validation. On the other hand, it's their problem, I guess those women ought to learn to just grin and bear it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 AM on 05/12/2009
- escribacat I'm a Fan of escribacat 381 fans permalink
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Grrr. That is one country I do not ever want to visit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 AM on 05/12/2009
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Based on one judge's behavior?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 AM on 05/12/2009
- escribacat I'm a Fan of escribacat 381 fans permalink
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This isn't exactly the first time I've heard about the place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:42 AM on 05/12/2009
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How intellectual! Of course, we're all simply mistaken, MomfromTexas. Saudi Arabia is a beacon of women's rights and progress. Give. Me. A. Break.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:13 PM on 05/12/2009
- MajorKong I'm a Fan of MajorKong 423 fans permalink
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I've been to a lot of countries and that is the only one I never want to go back to.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 AM on 05/12/2009
- nippyfan I'm a Fan of nippyfan 18 fans permalink
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I was attacked in New Jersey buy a Saudi Arabia native who now lives in New Jersey and drives for a car service in New York. He attacked me because he wanted me to give him cash when he had my credit card on file for the ride. I asked him to let me speak to dispatch because he was trying to rip me off, he flipped out. Told me "you'll speak to noone" pulled off so I couldn't get out of the car. I told him to go to a police station and let's discuss this with them. He found a dark street and pulled me out of the car and started hitting and kicking me. He felt this was okay because I talked back to him and when the police questioned him, he maintained his position. So slapping your female customer (who talks back) in America seems to be okay as well.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 PM on 05/11/2009
- klmebane I'm a Fan of klmebane 20 fans permalink
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did u also notice how the woman in the article was quoted as saying that a man has no right to beat his wife in the face?? not that he has no right to beat her, period, but just no right to beat her in the face.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 AM on 05/12/2009
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That is not the mainstream belief. Most Muslims believe, for several reasons, that beating a woman (or anyone, for that matter - outside of combat) is reprehensible. Not sure why the ramblings of some Saudi judge have become a worldwide story.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:16 PM on 05/12/2009
- Furby I'm a Fan of Furby 66 fans permalink
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It's not OK but it happens in the American military families on a daily basis.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 PM on 05/12/2009
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Well, is it now acceptable to slap Saudi judges?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 PM on 05/11/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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The staunch defender of Human right in Saud, Sohaila Zenelabideen Hammad:
"It is not acceptable, it is even forbidden in Islam to beat a woman on her face. ... No matter what the woman does, the man has no right whatsoever and under any circumstances to beat his wife on the face,"
Hilariously, his primary concern was with purity of Islam which has rules against face slapping.
Apprentyl defense of physiucal abuse on any other other parts of the body are OK for him,.
Because it is allowed in Islam.
And this is human rights center leader!!! Imagine what passes for "street " beliefs!
And we allow these people to build schools and promote their views on university campuses all over United States?????

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 PM on 05/11/2009
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Sohaila is a woman.......I must say, as a person who has experienced abuse as a child, at the time, I thought everyone was treated the same as me. Many of the women there may not even know that other countries are different. Thus they are more accepting that there is no other way. And to speak out too harshly may end up in death, even for Sohaila at the human rights center.......

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:26 PM on 05/11/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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re."Many of the women there may not even know that other countries are different."
Internet. Cable TV. Travel.

"And to speak out too harshly may end up in death, even for Sohaila at the human rights center......."
You mean if Sohalia says don't hit women, period, she may be killed? You actually believe that? Saudi Arabia is not Taliban or Iran.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 AM on 05/12/2009

the US is completely hypocritical in its relationships with Saudi Arabia and China, two of the world's worst abusers of human rights, we want oil and trade and so we talk sh.ite about human rights - including women's rights - out of one side of our mouth and then merrily conduct business out of the other, it has always been this way and will be no different under this current President

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:02 PM on 05/11/2009
- Quintspect I'm a Fan of Quintspect 2 fans permalink

Where does grievance stated by Bin Ladin as basis for the 9/11 attack---- that the United States supports Middle Eastern despots--- fit into the hypocrisy picture? And, is dropping phosphorous and "daisy cutters" and depleted uranium onto Iraqi men, women and children, a human rights violation?

Human rights violators who live in glass houses are not throwing stones at China and Saudi Arabia, because war is commerce, and commerce is war. And none of us is doing anything about that mentality acceding to office.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:46 PM on 05/11/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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re"Where does grievance stated by Bin Ladin as basis for the 9/11 attack---- that the United States supports Middle Eastern despots--- fit into the hypocrisy picture?"

If Bin Laden or his ilk ever get to governing, Saudi monarchy will seem like humanist socialism by comparison.

Regardless of who props up whom, most Islamic states are hopelessly backward.

Case in point-- Iran. Unsupported by U.S., Iranian theocracy displays wildest example of human rights violations.

Supported by U.S,. Jordan manages the he precarious balance between Islam and 20th century ( maybe 19th) Zeitgeist.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:32 PM on 05/11/2009
- UncleJimbo I'm a Fan of UncleJimbo 252 fans permalink
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Slap your Wife? Maybe this Judge is originally from the "Swat" area of Pakistan!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:55 PM on 05/11/2009
- Solaris123 I'm a Fan of Solaris123 17 fans permalink
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this is the pic of the judge.No wonder....
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/mollah.JPG

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 05/11/2009
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