Bush Critics Frustrated As Torture Debate Shifts To Pelosi

For those legal, media and political figures who favor an investigation and/or prosecution of the Bush administration for the torture of detainees, the recent spat over what members of Congress knew and when they knew it has become a bit maddening.

As attention shifts toward the extent to which House Speaker Nancy Pelosi oversaw the authorization and use of waterboarding, some are asking: Aren't we missing the forest for the trees?

"We are already so far widely away from the Constitution and the rule of law that it is staggering to discuss degradations here," said Bruce Fein, an associate deputy attorney general under Ronald Reagan and fierce critic of Bush's national security policies. "The staggering thing here is we have a former president and vice president who have said, 'Yes, we have authorized torture.' We have a President and Attorney General who have said 'Yes, waterboarding is torture.' And we have a torture statute that strictly defines waterboarding as torture.... We have a clear confession to one of the most serious crimes in the criminal code and what was happening? Absolutely nothing."

Added MSNBC's Ed Schultz during his opening segment on Thursday night: "Democrats are not the issue. Nancy Pelosi is not the issue. The issue is, who came up with the torture policy? Who broke the law?"

Indeed, in private conversations, Democratic strategists are bemoaning the fact that the harsh questioning of Pelosi has begun to overshadow the fact that torture was authorized in the first place. "It is a debate on Cheney's terms," as one Hill aide put it. To drive home the point, the source pointed to a New York Times oped from earlier in the week by Vicki Divoll, a former deputy counsel to the CIA Counterterrorist Center, who argued that a debate over Congress' role was somewhat irrelevant.

"It's logical to ask, so what if it was only four members?" Divoll wrote of the torture briefings. "If they objected to the program, why didn't they take steps to change it or stop it? Maybe they should have tried. But as a practical matter, there was very little, if anything, the Gang of Four could have done to affect the Bush administration's decision on the enhanced interrogation techniques program. To stop it, they needed the whole Congress."

And yet, not everyone feels that way. The House Speaker faces criticism for a failure to object more strongly to the use of waterboarding, even from those who say she shouldn't be the center of debate. "Pelosi," said Fein, "should have done what Mike Gravel did with the Pentagon Papers." (That is, Pelosi should have read the information she had on waterboarding into the congressional record.) "The speech and debate clause of the constitution would have given her immunity and legal protection."

Pelosi also faces a fresh round of rebuke for being willing to go only so far now in an effort to investigate the potential illegalities of the Bush years.

"In this case," said Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University, "Pelosi is charging that she was knowingly misled about a war crime. Now the problem with her latest explanation is that it is hard to express outrage over false statements regarding war crimes when you have personally blocked the investigations of the war crimes."

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Comments

[slpmom]

The whole mess about Pelosi is just to take the focus off the war crimes of Bush/Cheney/Justice Dept. Nancy Pelosi should have re-framed the entire attempt from the very beginning:
1. She was told what ever she was told in an advisory capacity
2. No one solicited her advice or her approval - shoot, they wouldn't even listen to dissenting White House insiders!! If they did tell her about waterboarding & she voiced disapproval, would that have made ANY difference to the White House?
3. What ever they did tell her was TOP SECRET --- what was she supposed to do about it? She couldn't take it to the House of Reps. & ask for resolutions or legislation
If she had taken this position at the beginning, this would all be over. This is nothing but distraction ... and the Bush/Cheney/Justice Dept. war criminals are getting away with it. Nancy Pelosi has committed no crimes. She had NOTHING to do with writing or implementing the torture policy.

[mergina]

I have never been a fan of Pelosi, REALLY. But if any of the accusations being flung at her are true, LET IT COME OUT IN ONE HUGE KNOCK DOWN DRAG OUT commission, A REAL COMMISSION, that does not stop until it gets to the truth, SO THE INDICTMENTS AND CONVICTIONS FOR THE MANY CRIMES OF THE PAST 8 YEARS CAN FINALLY MATERIALIZE. JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED TO ALL, for the sake of this nation, indeed for the sake of the rest of the world.

[Remah]

So if people commit a crime when they lie to the congress as the minority leader said.
So what about repeatedly telling lies to the american people, Congress and the senate..

The weapons of Mass destruction of Iraq, Iraq link with Alkaida, The Claim that US does not torture...
are those lies...or when the us president or his vp says that , it is not considerd neither a lie... nor a crime.. that can bring criminal charge... are those people drinking coolaid...
and what about the people who authorized torture first place and the GOP who are blocking an investigat­ion.... So knowing about it(if true!!!!) is punished but authorizing it...Noway is prosecuted­...
Are we still live on earth!!! is this still the US or Bush/ Cheney succeded in turning it into a third world country forever...­This is sad....

[CJWebber]

Right. Make Pelosi step down.

What is the matter with you people? It looks like you WANT to be gulled, just so you can say you were lied to.

[golibs]

MAYBE WE CAN PUT HER IN CHARGE OF EDUCATION SO WHEN ALL OF OUR CHILDREN START LYING WE CAN BLAME WELL WE WILL THINK OF SOMEONE SHE NOW HAS MORE STORIES THAN DISNEY

[rabiddog6708]

From madkane.com: The “We Did Nothing Wrong, & Nancy Should Have Stopped Us” Song
Republicans are truly gifted at changing the subject, and the media falls for it every time. Take CIA torture, for instance. Is the media focusing on who in the Bush administration broke the law and ordered torture? Of course not! Instead, the topic’s morphed into whether Nancy Pelosi is lying when she says the CIA misled Congress about torture.

Following Republican logic is never an easy task. But from what I can gather, here’s the Republican position: Bush’s CIA did nothing wrong, & Pelosi could have and should have stopped them.

In honor of the Republicans tortured position on torture, I’ve written them a theme song to the tune of Stephen Foster’s Camptown Races:

The CIA did nothing wrong.
Doo-da, Doo-da.
Pelosi knew and went along.
Oh, de doo-da day.

Torture is always right.
Torture can make our day.
And Nancy’s nothing but a lying nag.
She could have got in the way.

Interrogation must be tough.
Doo-da, Doo-da.
Pelosi knew we got too rough.
Oh, de doo-da day.

Never did break no laws.
Torture? Who, us? No way!
Pelosi’s nothing but a lying hag.
Nancy would lead you astray.

The CIA protects us all.
Doo-da, Doo-da.
It’s time Pelosi took the fall.
Oh, de doo-da day.

Torture was never done.
Torture is lots of fun.
And Nancy’s nothing but a lying nag.
Nancy Pelosi should pay.

[BabblingBrooks]

"Contrary to columnist Frank Rich's uninformed accusation in the New York Times that the lawyers "proposed using" the techniques, they did no such thing. They were asked to provide legal guidance on whether the CIA's proposed methods violated the law."
--V. Toensing, WSJ.com

[BabblingBrooks]

"The Senate rejected a bill in 2006 to make waterboarding illegal? That fact alone negates criminalization of the act."

A Democratic-majority Senate, one might note.

It is ever more clear that, if the facts came out, the Bush-and-C­heney-bash­ing would have to cease.

Someone has to tell Geraldo Rivera this. He's going more delusional by the day.

[BabblingBrooks]

It may be that Democrats have actually taken the time to review the laws regarding torture.

"The U.N. treaty defined torture as "severe pain and suffering.­" The Justice Department witness for the Senate treaty hearings testified that "[t]orture is understood to be barbaric cruelty . . . the mere mention of which sends chills down one's spine." He gave examples of "the needle under the fingernail, the application of electrical shock to the genital area, the piercing of eyeballs. . . ." Mental torture was an act "designed to damage and destroy the human personalit­y."

The treaty had a specific provision stating that nothing, not even war, justifies torture. Congress removed that provision when drafting the 1994 law against torture, thereby permitting someone accused of violating the statute to invoke the long-established defense of necessity.­"
--V. Toensing

I REPEAT: "The treaty had a specific provision stating that nothing, not even war, justifies torture. Congress removed that provision when drafting the 1994 law against torture, thereby permitting someone accused of violating the statute to invoke the long-established defense of necessity.­"

It appears that CONGRESS CONCLUDED THAT TORTURE WAS SOMETIMES NECESSARY.

In other words, it IS NOT ILLEGAL under current law.

Interesting, huh?

[escribacat]

The Republicans have successfully shifted the focus of the issue over to Pelosi. The Dems better wake up and shift it back to where it belongs -- to the perpetrators.

[BabblingBrooks]

Obama and Pelosi poke the torture hornet's nest with a stick and then blame Republicans when they get stung. It is funny, is it not?

[StillweRise]

All this is, is a distraction from the real story of documentation SHOWING that Bush / Cheney used torture to try to link Iraq to Al Queda. THAT is the story.

The media should hang their collective heads low at this point. I thought it was bad when they ignored the smoking gun of the Downing Street memo specifically stating that "facts were being fixed around the policy (of invading Iraq). BUT 'THIS'… To be complicit in allowing the GOP to blow up yet another non-issue while IGNORING A REAL ISSUE BANGING AGAINST THE DOOR FOR ATTENTION is true cause to now mourn the loss of the fourth estate.

Media…… SHAME on you all.

[tel8034]

The republican leaning MSM has the microphone ..........­...... And as long as they do, ANYTHING to distract from the REAL STORY of the Bush administration's TORTURE, they will keep in the forefront.

The MSM knows that the Bush/Cheney TORTURE has NOTHING TO DO WITH PELOSI.

They know that even IF Pelosi knew what Bush and Cheney were doing, the final and ONLY meaningful signature in the eqaution to authorize TORTURE, was done with the stroke of George W. Bush's pen...... No one outside the George Bush White House could have stopped the process.

Just as Bush vetoed everything coming out of the democratic led congress he was against, if he was against Cheney's TORTURE recommendations he would not have signed the order.

The question that no one is asking is: "Do the REPUBLICANS who now say they were briefed by the CIA on the TORTURE TACTICS, believe that the TORTURE was legal?"...­..........­.. No-one is asking the question.

No-one in the MSM is asking: How is it that the SAME CIA Bush said had MISLED him about WMD in Iraq, and the SAME CIA which the republicans went after and vilified in their defense of Bush, is now the SAME CIA who the republicans say would never mislead anyone?

[JiminNC]

Suck'em in Nancy, the O'Hammer is gonna fall. Remarkable that O has played this so that the republisaurs, led by the big D.i.c.k are the ones demanding a full investigation. At the worst, Nancy (might) be tarred for poor memory. Others will pay a higher price.

[Loompa]

poor memory - that's not very imaginative, Jim - and it's a kind of worn out excuse

[BabblingBrooks]

But it's Democrats who can't stand a full investigation, as THEY APPROVED OF THE INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES.

You are 180 degrees from reality here. Republicans and all citizens should WELCOME A FULL AND OPEN DISCUSSION. I think Democrats would be very unhappy at the result!

[eliasboudit]

This is so precious - and priceless!

Why didnt she just admit from the get go instead of grandstanding???

I guess dems think people are so stupid to believe anything they say!

Well, fortunately NO MORE!

[StillweRise]

did you believe everything Cheney said.

p.s. are you defending torture??

do you approve of the U.S. torturing? It is not who we are, and not who we have ever been.

But if Nancy was told about it 7 years ago.. then all bets are off, right?

[usawillprevail]

Thats right - I forgot - fellow dems pannetta, stoyer et al were THERE with Nancy.

But I guess everyone going agaisnt pelousi is lying.

Thank you dems for knowingly trying to run YOUR lies roughshot.

Oh and she did NOT commit any crimes - it is just lying out of both sides of her face