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Prop 8 Decision: Gay Marriage Ban Upheld By California Supreme Court

LISA LEFF   05/27/09 12:14 AM ET   AP

Propdecision

SAN FRANCISCO — California's Supreme Court upheld the state's gay-marriage ban Tuesday but said the estimated 18,000 same-sex weddings that took place before the prohibition passed are still valid _ a ruling decried by gay-rights activists as a hollow victory.

Demonstrators outside the court booed, wept and yelled, "Shame on you!" Activists said they would go back to the voters as early as next year in a bid to repeal the ban, and a federal lawsuit seeking to overturn it was filed late last week.

In a 6-1 decision written by Chief Justice Ron George, the court rejected arguments that the ban approved by the voters last fall was such a fundamental change in the California Constitution that it first needed the Legislature's approval.

"We are extremely pleased that the Supreme Court has acknowledged the right of voters to define marriage in the California Constitution," said Andrew P. Pugno, a lawyer for ProtectMarriage.com, the leading group behind the initiative. "The voters have decided this issue and their views should be respected."

As for the thousands of couples who tied the knot last year in the five months that gay marriage was legal in California, the court said it is well-established principle that an amendment is not retroactive unless it is clear that the voters intended it to be, and that was not the case with Proposition 8.

Moreover, the court said it would be too disruptive to apply Proposition 8 retroactively and dissolve all gay marriages.

Doing that would have the effect of "throwing property rights into disarray, destroying the legal interests and expectations of thousands of couples and their families, and potentially undermining the ability of citizens to plan their lives according to the law as it has been determined by this state's highest court," the ruling said.

While gay rights advocates accused the court of failing to protect a minority group from the will of the majority, the justices said that the state's governing framework gives voters almost unfettered ability to change the California Constitution.

The decision set off an outcry among a sea of demonstrators who had gathered in front of the San Francisco courthouse, holding signs and waving rainbow flags. Many people also held hands in a chain around an intersection in an act of protest. More than 150 protesters were arrested, with citations for failure to obey a police officer and jaywalking.

About 80 protesters rallied outside the Los Angeles County clerk's office, where marriage licenses are issued. They waved rainbow flags and carried signs that read "Repeal Prop 8 in 2010."

In San Francisco's Castro district, where many gay men and lesbians live, the large rainbow gay pride flag that flies in Harvey Milk Plaza had been lowered to half-staff and a black stripe put on the top.

"We're relieved our marriage was not invalidated, but this is a hollow victory because there are so many that are not allowed to marry those they love," said Amber Weiss, 32, who was in the crowd at City Hall, near the courthouse, with her partner, Sharon Papo. They were married on the first day gay marriage was legal last year, June 17.

"I feel very uncomfortable being in a special class of citizens," Papo said.

Jeanne Rizzo, 62, who was one of the plaintiffs along with her wife, Pali Cooper, said: "It's not about whether we get to stay married. Our fight is far from over. I have about 20 years left on this earth, and I'm going to continue to fight for equality every day."

A small group of Proposition 8 supporters also gathered outside the court.

"A lot of people just assume we're religious nuts. We're not. But we are Christians and we believe in the Bible," said George Popko, 22, a student at American River College in Sacramento, where the student government officially endorsed Proposition 8.

In the state capital, Republican state Assemblyman Sam Blakeslee of San Luis Obispo, the incoming minority leader, said the court's decision "reaffirmed the principle that the people's votes do matter."

The state Supreme Court ruled 4-3 last May that it was unconstitutional to deny gay couples the right to wed. For a while, that put California _ the nation's most populous state _ back in its familiar position in the vanguard of social change; at the time, Massachusetts was the only other state to allow gay marriage.

In what gay activists called their "Summer of Love," same-sex couples from around the country rushed to get married in California for fear the voters would take away the right at the ballot box. In November, Proposition 8 passed with 52 percent approval.

As the fight went on in California, Iowa, Maine, Vermont and Connecticut legalized gay marriage, bringing to five the number of states that allow same-sex couples to wed.

In California, gay rights activists argued that the ban was improperly put to the voters and amounted to a revision _ which required legislative approval _ not an amendment. But the justices disagreed.

The court said that while the ban denies gay couples use of the term "marriage," it does not fundamentally disturb their basic right to "establish an officially recognized and protected family relationship with the person of one's choice and to raise children within the family." California still allows gay couples to form domestic partnerships.

In their 136-page majority ruling, the justices said it not their job to address whether the ban is wise public policy, but to decide whether it is constitutionally valid, while "setting aside our own personal beliefs and values."

Justice Carlos Moreno, who had been under consideration as President Barack Obama's nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court, was the lone dissenter.

He said denying same-sex couples the right to wed "strikes at the core of the promise of equality that underlies our California Constitution." He said it represents a "drastic and far-reaching change."

"Promising equal treatment to some is fundamentally different from promising equal treatment for all," Moreno said. "Promising treatment that is almost equal is fundamentally different from ensuring truly equal treatment."

San Francisco City Attorney Dennis Herrera, whose office fought the ban, said: "Today we are faced with a disappointing decision. But I think we also know it could have been worse."

Prominent lawyers Theodore B. Olson and David Boies filed a lawsuit Friday in U.S. District Court on behalf of two gay men and two gay women, arguing that Proposition 8 violates the U.S. constitutional guarantee of equal protection and due process.

Olson said he hopes the case, which seeks a preliminary injunction against the measure until the case is resolved, will wind up before the U.S. Supreme Court. He is a former U.S. solicitor general who served in high-level Justice Department jobs in the Reagan and George W. Bush administrations.

___

Associated Press Writers Juliana Barbassa, Evelyn Nieves, Marcus Wohlsen and Paul Elias in San Francisco and Christina Hoag and Linda Deutsch in Los Angeles contributed to this report.

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SAN FRANCISCO — California's Supreme Court upheld the state's gay-marriage ban Tuesday but said the estimated 18,000 same-sex weddings that took place before the prohibition passed are still val...
SAN FRANCISCO — California's Supreme Court upheld the state's gay-marriage ban Tuesday but said the estimated 18,000 same-sex weddings that took place before the prohibition passed are still val...
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10:50 AM on 05/29/2009
Remind me again, why are we supposed to be afraid of same sex marriage or gay parents? More than 2,000 years after some Jewish home builder (arguably) thought enough of us poor saps to allow a band of seedy characters to nail him to a poorly built cross, we still have issue? Perhaps they are still looking for the scrolls that say, "He died for all of us, except the gays."

Come on! Whether you believe in Jesus, Buddah or just live a well and decent life, I cannot fathom that in 2009 we still have issue with this. Aren't we the leader of the free friggin world or something like that?

I had a tough time explaining to my 12-year-old daughter why more Americans than not are terrified by the thought of gay marriage. All to the backdrop of CNN recapping the latest suicide bombers...
07:30 PM on 05/29/2009
People fear not Gay Marriage. They fear what happens when you change the definition of an institution that has lasted thousands of years in the blink of an eye. Some sexually liberal societies Greek, Roman, Spartan, Latin, and Egyptian are no longer around. I am not saying Homosexuality brought them down but rather I am saying they were overly liberal. They made sweeping changes overnight that eventually brought them to an end.

The most conservative of which Egyptian lasted the longest. I cannot prove what lead to their downfall but changing traditions overnight means you have to forge new ways. Would it not be wise to slowly change those traditions so if we notice over the span of 40 to maybe a few hundred years we can slowly move back on course?

We can correct the denial of rights without casting aside millenniums of tradition.
Marriage predates written history sounds very reckless to think we know better then 10 of thousands of years of relative success seeing that marriage has survived in its current form since that time.

You are asking us to risk all that success for no gain. The Supreme Court can say overnight that name only designates different sexes and shall all be equal under the law. That way society gets to keep marriage definition and Gays finally get full rights. It's called compromise where each side gives up something.
04:56 PM on 05/31/2009
Sorry but you obviously haven't got a clue about Ancient history, Modern history, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Classical or the history of marriage for that matter.

If you "cannot prove what lead to their downfall" in the case of the Egyptians it is because you have not bothered to pick up a History book. The same goes for all the other cultures you mention in passing.

Go to your local library and open a few books. Then read them. Then come back to us.
07:14 PM on 05/28/2009
I could not find one Gay sight petitioning all 50 states for specific rights Gays do not have. And in some states there is a very long list of rights Gays do not have. But I get the feeling Gays do not care because they are not addressing those rights. No marching for health care benefits in the south, north, east, or west. No marching for the right to make love without getting sent to jail in some of the southern states. ummmmm... A fight for rights without the fight. That sounds like a winner.
07:12 PM on 05/28/2009
I tried to help you guys find people who are against Gay rights so I went to the Googler as Bush would say. I typed in several search terms; Prevent Gay rights now, Organization against gay rights, I hate Gays, Stop all gay rights, Government should remove prevent stop gay rights, and State outlaws gay rights.
None of these yielded a list of rights or individuals that wanted to remove or prevent said rights for Gays. All I saw on most of it was Gay Marriage. And a few idiots some of which were gay who had Youtube videos saying I hate gays.

For minorities I found so much variety of stuff I could only do two searches. Organization against Black, Yellow, Brown rights and I Hate Black, brown, and Yellow races. Of which I found so much I will just give you examples of the second. "I hate Blacks, Why all evil is called black, and Chinese hate black people because they're dirty and they stink. I tried to find examples of people hating other races so I would not be accused of cherry picking but I could not.
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senorlou
02:15 AM on 05/29/2009
Gays are probably the most persecuted minority in America. They are constantly harassed, and sometimes killed for their sexual orientation. In this country, you are not allowed to discriminate. You are very un-American in your views toward gays, and it's more than a little strange that you would be so bigoted and unthinking about a subject that only affects the gay community.
07:05 AM on 05/29/2009
I do not deny Gays face legal challenges when they organize as couples. In some states they outright outlaw Gay relationships. But when Gays on their own websites only focus on Gay Marriage then what they do is hide everything else they go through from those that might be willing to help.

That said I can guarantee you that Blacks would trade positions with Gays in a New York Minute. I bet they would even take civil unions if they could trade with Gays. You could go to San Fransisco the Gay capital of the world and ask around and not a one would trade the Gay position for the Black position. I tell you what see how many Gay people you can get to post here that they would rather take on Black challenges then Gay ones.
07:10 AM on 05/29/2009
"Gays are probably the most persecuted minority in America."

Sorry, according to hate-crime stats I can find, gay people will have to get in line behind blacks, jews, and whites (really), in that order.

The thing that seperates gay people is that you can't tell who is gay and who isn't.
03:51 PM on 05/28/2009
Hello everyone. I really enjoyed this article. I thought you might find this interesting -- it's an article from the midwest about Proposition 8.

http://www.examiner.com/x-11535-Kansas-City-Christian-Spirituality-Examiner~y2009m5d28-Proposition-8-Sensible-not-controversial

Have a great day.
04:44 PM on 05/28/2009
Doug I really did enjoy it. Because unlike some here at least the author intelligently argues his point of view and does not try to demonize those who disagree with him. He respects mine and everyone else's feeling enough to at least think give credit for them to be genuine and not an attempt to hate another group.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
05:06 PM on 05/28/2009
Gee, what a surprise! You l-i-e-d and you're back.
Obsessive closetcases are so predictable.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
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12:41 AM on 05/28/2009
Okay, I just tuned in and am trying to catch up. After reading through the latest comments, it appears that this is where we are:

TJustSaying, says something rediculous
sane people point out the insanity
TJustSaying, says "I'm done with you guys" ... then continues
sane people point out the insanity
TJustSaying, says "I'm done with you guys" ... then continues
sane people point out the insanity
TJustSaying, says "I'm done with you guys" ... then continues

Have I missed anything else, or is that about where we stand?
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
08:25 AM on 05/28/2009
Yeah, that's about what happened, but there have been plenty of TJustSayings on this comments section. He wasn't the only guy on here with twisted logic. Hey, is that the son of God on a piece of toast? I love it!
10:21 PM on 05/27/2009
I will let someone else try to work with you I am really tired of responding to gibberish.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
10:23 PM on 05/27/2009
Another l-i-e, I'm sure.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
10:29 PM on 05/27/2009
You've been posting gibberish since you got on this site. Here you are telling gays they should just shut up and take it. What would you say to somebody who told you that. Oh yeah, and what do you thumpers want to outlaw next? Who's the next minority group you feel like demonizing? Let me guess, you going to go after athiests next? Immigrants? We know how you guys love to hate the immigrants. The problem with your mindset is that you see wrong with everyone, and you're determined to change it. You think gays want anything to do with people like you? Do you think they're going to barge into your church and start telling you what you can and can't do? They wouldn't do anything like that. They know what discrimination feels like. You have no clue.
06:21 PM on 05/28/2009
A few of you have admitted that I have written allot in this blog. If I remember correctly you compared it to spam. But with all that you have not found one source that supports your assumption that I want to deny Gay rights. If you are going to accuse someone of that you better have some powerful evidence. Adults do not make statements they cannot back up.

If you make the affirmative that I or anyone one else wants to deny your rights as in more then one you have a duty to show some evidence based on what they said that supports this. If you cannot do this you are guilty of liable. Which means you are trashing someone's name without evidence. People have been sued for less. Now that I have shown you how it should be done I want you to list the examples of me and others trying to prevent Gays from seeking equal rights.
10:19 PM on 05/27/2009
I'm done with you guys. You say I do not want you to have equal rights but you will not list one right I do not want you to have that heterosexual married couples enjoy which Gay couples want but believe they cannot get. Until you list some of these rights I do not want you to have I will just assume A you guys do not speak English, B you do not know the answer, or C you are not be honest. One of those three things I suspect is right until you prove me wrong I will shut the hell up and let you guys give each other love pats.
10:43 PM on 05/27/2009
How about this Einstein.

1. You think both gays and heteros shuld have the same rights as each other but one should be called civil unions and one marriage, right?

2. If the answer to 1 is true then you believe in separate but equal. There is no way around that fact.

3. We have seen separate but equal is not equal in Brown vs Board of Education. Furthermore, I have made the additional argument that separate but equal is serious damanging to our society because it gives one group a false sense of superiority and another a false sense of inferiority--so eloquently stated by MLK.

Did I miss anything here oh brilliant one?
01:47 PM on 05/28/2009
So I just thought I would respond one last time since you did actually try to answer the question. The funds spent in White schools were not equal to the funds spent at Black schools. That does not apply to a law which does not have anything to do with the name you call it.

The people that argued separate but equal proved that the schools were not separate but equal with numbers including amounts spent on White schools versus Black schools. They showed from top to bottom a favoritism for White over Black schools with documentation. Your application at best is an abuse of the Separate But Equal doctrine.

They proved that in every measure the White schools where superior to the Black schools. You do not have the same argument here because you cannot prove that it is outside the power of the Supreme court to declare Civil Unions will have the same force of law that Marriages do. In fact we know the Supreme Court can declare that nationally as a compromise if they so choose. So nice try but at the end of the day your just trying to copy off heterosexuals term. If there are Gay only and Heterosexual only public facilities around here somewhere then the MLK reference would apply. You cannot prove the loss of even one right by the name. But Gay Marriage will be going to the Supreme court really soon and we will see what they say about it.
10:16 PM on 05/27/2009
Yeah because I make sense. I am still waiting for my answer on the Rights issue. I am done with you guys. You say you want equal rights. You accuse others of wanting to prevent you from achieving equal rights. You have yet to state one right that we want to take away from you. I have been waiting for over 2 hours for one right that you think society does not want you to have. The reason I can reply so fast is because none of you can present logical arguments.

I doubt you believe the dribble you are typing. It is easy to defend against platitudes. It only takes one average intelligent person on the other side to defend against a whole room of you because you are not presenting facts just feelings. I know you are amazed I can argue with you all at one time but really it is not that hard.

I've seen others do the same against you. When you define what you want in the Gay community and stop copying Heterosexuals you will have a power that will not care about me or any one else. Your arguments will get better because you really will be fighting for rights instead of consensus. When you finally figure out its your choice your arguments will get much better and the word Marriage will have little to no meaning to you. But what you will fight to death for is the rights Heterosexuals have.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
MelRoy
I think, therefore...here I am
10:17 PM on 05/27/2009
Bye then. Don't let the door hit you....etc.
10:23 PM on 05/27/2009
Everyone on this blog is d*umber for having read your posts.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
09:53 PM on 05/27/2009
This TJS is scary cr@zy.
It spews this sh/t faster than a spambot.
09:56 PM on 05/27/2009
Ahhhha. I like how you refer to TJS as "IT". Since he obviously doesn't respect all humans, then I think calling TJS "IT" is completely appropriate and makes me laugh my a*s off.....AHHHA
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
10:16 PM on 05/27/2009
I have no idea if it is male or female. It lies so much that I wouldn't believe it no matter what it said.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
10:02 PM on 05/27/2009
He's just another religious "conservative" who can't understand why gays won't be happy as 2nd class citizens. He sees nothing wrong with it, and has no clue whatsoever about things like discrmination and has no idea what it is like to be hated by people who don't even know him. Total inability to empathize with their plight. The only way a person like THS is going to understand something like this is if his church is only allowed the same - "Civil unions". If churches were only allowed Civil Unions, they would freak. He doesn't see gays as equal, so he doesn't understand that there is anything wrong with denying them the same rights everybody else has.
08:13 PM on 05/27/2009
We are arguing about Apples and Oranges. We differ on the belief of a marriage. After many arguments at best I get people who call me a bigot because I do not buy into their new age definition of marriage. Call me a romantic since I will not let go of a classic. Or you can call me and about 2/3 thirds of Americans sentimental old fools. We are not going to budge on this point. It is useless to argue it since neither side is going to back down on it. But I have heard from Gays and their supporters about rights being denied. So far as I can tell every poster hear has supported equal rights. But you still say we want to deny you those rights.

Let's get to the bottom of these rights you feel we, those who disagree with Gay Marriage are trying to take away. Please state each right that Married Heterosexuals have that you think I or others is trying to deny. And we will be honest and answer in the affirmative if your claim is true and Nay if your claim is false. Please just list every right you think we do not want you to have under your unions. That way we can stop talking in generalizations about denied rights and get down to the specific ones you think we do not want you to have. Let's find the solutions instead of just arguing.
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senorlou
08:37 PM on 05/27/2009
Look, this is the kind of garbage that gay people have to deal with day in day out. they are told they are perverse, abnormal, and even an abomination. Here's a little example of the kinds of posts we see here on HP, a liberal website:

Modular-Libertarian I'm a Fan of Modular-Libertarian permalink
Many people here are pushing the argument that homosexuality is "normal". They"re wrong. If you believe in Darwin, Natural Selection and his other related work then you must believe that we should all have a primordial desire to procreate in order for the species to survive and carry on. Procreation is impossible between those of the same sex. The majority of people are heterosexual and therefore the species survives. Any sexual preference which does not contribute to the survival of the species deviates from the norm and is therefore, by definition, abnormal. If you believe in Darwin, then you must believe that any sexual preference other than that for the opposite sex is, again, by scientific definition, abnormal.

So this poster is telling gay people that they are "abnormal." What's next? Subhuman? I'm sure I'll find a post about to show you soon enough.
09:09 PM on 05/27/2009
What does this have to do with rights? The KKK says all blacks should die. The Nazis believe all Jews should be killed. Blacks have been getting shot and killed by racism at far greater numbers and percentages then Gays. So in the total scheme of things a belief that Gay behavior is immoral is just a drop in the bucket. Me personally I believe it is wrong until it can be proven scientifically who to determine if someone is Gay or not. The second I can test someone's blood and figure out if they are gay or look at them and tell if they are gay then I will say it is born and not a choice. But I tell you what if Gays have it so hard they can trade with Blacks they would be happy to exchange places with Gays.
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senorlou
09:15 PM on 05/27/2009
Here's another lovely post I found in this comments section. I think it was page 11.

I'm a fan of this user permalink
What's next? Pedophilia?

Get ready! Next, they will be saying that they were born with their abnormality. They had no choice in their desire for young children. Therefore, it must be okay and we must all accept their abnormality? And, we must all embrace their desire to be with children because they were "BORN" as pedophiles. Then comes those who practice BESTIALITY. They were born that way. They could not help themselves. Wow! The arguments are so tiresome.
09:17 PM on 05/27/2009
Here's your answer to why a segregation of marriage (civil union vs marriage) is unjust.

"Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust. All segregation statutes are unjust because segregation distorts the soul and damages the personality. It gives the segregator a false sense of superiority and the segregated a false sense of inferiority."

-- MLK
09:28 PM on 05/27/2009
But there would be no segregator nor segregated. Two unions, with identical rights. Equal.

Such things, designated by gender, already exist throughout society without problems.
09:38 PM on 05/27/2009
No no no. I asked for a specific law and what does term have to do with segregation. But I am not surprised I did not think I would get and answer. Magic tricks do not win arguments.
08:02 PM on 05/27/2009
For whatever reason Senorlou cannot read so he will misquote you. Please do not believe Senorlou unless he can provide the quote.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
08:09 PM on 05/27/2009
OK, if anybody agrees with me, please post that you do so this religious kook will get off my case. People will be able to read your post, and those of others just fine, and they'll decide for themselves. It'll be a great day when your church has to pay taxes because they can't follow the Constitutional separation of church and state. This dumb law should never have existed. California voters blew it when they voted for Arnold, and they're paying the price. They're going to regret pandering to the religious right just as much.
08:37 PM on 05/27/2009
Senorlou read my post above. It is the first one. And just list the rights I do not want Gays to have. You can't just accuse people of something without specifics. Either list the rights I do not want Gays to have or shut up about me trying to deny Gay rights. List the rights that cannot given under a civil union. If not, you are just talking semantics. Why I am so pissed is because you accused me of something that you cannot prove. Unless you have facts do not dare say I am trying to take away Gay rights. If I did not want Gays to have equal rights I am man enough to admit it. And I hear today say I believe it is the right thing that they have equal rights.

Even the right to join the military. That does not change my beliefs but just as I am not calling you a immoral demon who is going to hell do not make such moral calls on me just cause I believe as I do. If I was a religious nut I would call you a filthy sinner who is hell bound. I would say your moral perversion is going to sentence the world to eternal damnation. But since I am not a religious zealot I do not buy any of those arguments. I just wanted to you to know how I would talk if I was such a zealot as you claim.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
09:08 PM on 05/27/2009
Agreed. It is an ins@ne, Je$u$-fre@ky closetcase.
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senorlou
08:41 PM on 05/27/2009
Here's one from another poster who is telling gay people what Jesus would do:

mydwyf I'm a Fan of mydwyf permalink
You don't know that is what he would do. Maybe he would chase the sodomists out of the temple the way he did the money changers. After all, he really did speak out against hypocrites. And to some of us, sodomy is the ultimate hypocrisy.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
08:47 PM on 05/27/2009
Here's one from this comment section on page 9 from another thumper. He says gays are "abnormal" :

I'm a Fan of Modular-Libertarian permalink
Many people here are pushing the argument that homosexuality is "normal". They"re wrong. If you believe in Darwin, Natural Selection and his other related work then you must believe that we should all have a primordial desire to procreate in order for the species to survive and carry on. Procreation is impossible between those of the same sex. The majority of people are heterosexual and therefore the species survives. Any sexual preference which does not contribute to the survival of the species deviates from the norm and is therefore, by definition, abnormal. If you believe in Darwin, then you must believe that any sexual preference other than that for the opposite sex is, again, by scientific definition, abnormal.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
senorlou
08:00 PM on 05/27/2009
The biggest problem we face in this nation is conservative Christianity. Think about the last 8 years. What have they done for us? They gave us the GOP and George W. Bush. They have twisted the Christian religion and do nothing but judge, judge, judge others who don't even ask to be judged by them. They don't respect anybody's civil rights, and are always trying to ban everything. Look, now they were successful in banning gay marriage. They'll go a lot farther than this, of course, if we let them. We need to stop them immediately, and not just the gay community.
Since the conservative Christians have been butting into politics so much over the years, they need to lose their tax exempt status. It's not just gay people who need to get involved in this. The writing is on the wall. As I said, they won't stop here. They're ready to cause more problems and trample on our Constitution and way of life. They are anti-freedom and very, very anti-American. We need to organize against these bigots immediately.
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senorlou
07:47 PM on 05/27/2009
For whatever reason, the religious nuts in this state and in Utah decided to pick on gay people in order to get their drooling minions out to vote. They don't care about eliminating poverty, they don't care about the massive California budget crisis, they don't care about helping anyone at all. They are happy, though, to spread their hateful ignorance far and wide. This kind of nonsense will not stop with gay marriage. You have to ask yourself, who is next. I hope all sensible people realize that the biggest problem in this country is religion. Bush and the GOP hid behind it and it worked for a long time, and look at the damage. There is a large group of Christian leaders who use their prominence in the community to stir up hatred and division. While this has always been a problem, we should be on red alert right now. As I tried to point out, these kooks do not stop at one group of people. They go on and on until somebody finally puts and end to it. The religious nuts decided to pick this fight, so we need to fight it. I think the best way to do this is to find a way to take away their tax exempt status. This insanity needs to stop. It's already gotten out of control - look at this ruling. This country needs to take a long look at Christianity and reevaluate it. Lately, it's done far more harm than
08:00 PM on 05/27/2009
Sir before calling anyone here hateful or denying rights to some group please post the exact quote so you do not unfairly impute people's character. When you run your mouth without the quote you are lying on the innocent. Quote it correct and state we just do not wish to redefine marriage. No one here has stated Gays should not have equal rights. I dare you to find someone who has said they should not on this blog.
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senorlou
08:06 PM on 05/27/2009
Flip through this site if you want to see homophobia, and once again - don't you dare tell me what to do. America is about freedom and respect for people of all stripes. That's what this country is about. You guys want to live Puritanical times. Your religion has gone way past the point of no return. I hope more people who are tired of this nonsense from the religious nuts will do something to stop this. If you can't see how wrong you are in trying to control the lives of people you don't even know, who never did you any harm, then you are part of the problem. Religious conservatives are a plague on our society. Hopefully, the younger generation won't be as hateful and bigoted as yours. Polls show they are far more open minded and fair. They are coming up under the shadow of religious conservatism, and most of them reject it. Even at their young age, they know better. Too bad people like you can't understand how wrong it is to control other people's private lives.
06:07 PM on 05/27/2009
And my argument is not against your rights. If I was in power you would already have them. However, I do care about the definition of marriage. I prefer to keep the term and I succeed the point that you deserve the same rights. Civil Unions do not have the same rights and neither does Gay Marriage for one specific reason.

There are those that wish to punish Gays by taking away rights such as the right to transfer property in some states. In other states the act of Gay Unions itself is outlawed. Even though minorities could get married they did not always have equal rights under the law.

So by proving that Marriage does not mean equal rights I prove you are not seeking equal rights if you are simply fighting over a term only because I use it. What tradition do Gays have with the word marriage? What connection do they have with it so strong they would deny me the right to keep the definition as is but relinquish all rights due Gays? Why is it Gays feel the need to have us call their union the same as ours? Does the Gay world revolve around the heterosexual world. Must they copy everything we do? Can they not start a new standard? Can they not start their own traditions rather then adopt ours? Have they any creativity and free will to forge their own way and not simply follow the heterosexual way of doing things?
06:46 PM on 05/27/2009
Well stated.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
06:56 PM on 05/27/2009
Your idi0cy is tiresome, but thanks for finally coming out and stating that it's all about a word to you.
Now, words do matter. Like on a loan application or a rental application. Would you not agree?
07:28 PM on 05/27/2009
Yeah I would say for me and most of the US it is a moral thing. And yes the words in your contract, if it be Gay Unions, Civil Union, Same-Sex-Compact, newtechunion, or what you guys decide to call your union do matter. The wording in the loan application or a rental application has legal implications. But what does not matter if my loan application or rental application is called Country Wide, RentaCenter, GMAC, or whatever but the words inside that document matter. So yeah your right I agree. Now what you really want is for a stamp of approval. So we can make a deal neither side can redefine marriage. But both sides can enjoy the same rights. Gays define for themselves their term and we will keep the term we defined long ago for ourselves.
05:02 PM on 05/27/2009
Reproduction or genitalia as you call it is everything. Without it human life would cease to exist. If Hitler want to kill all of a particular race he would not have had to fire a single bullet. All he would have had to do was to remove the genitalia of everyone of that race and they would soon cease to exist. You can say maybe some cannot reproduce but as long as there are a few left that race will live on.

If you cannot reproduce your survival is not assured but highly doubtful. I guess you can make the argument that we do not care if one day Gays are not born just as long as we can enjoy our life.

I think Gays have nothing to worry about because it is not birth but choice. No one has found the Gene to turn it off and on because it does not exist. If you can name me one sickness that effects Gays more then any other group then I will say I am wrong. All races and all sexes have things that effect them as an individual group to a greater degree then other groups. There is not even medical research concerning Gays. No one in the medical community is even willing to put up the money to study Gays. What you do have is a fellowship of like minded men and women.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
MelRoy
I think, therefore...here I am
11:03 PM on 05/27/2009
Bogus argument. If homosexuals are able to marry, heterosexuals will not automatically stop procreating (or donating their sperm, or being artificially inseminated). Gay people will not say, "Oh forget it, I'm going to hook up with someone of the opposite sex" if they are denied the right to marry their same-sex partner.

You are drowning in your own rhetoric.
12:18 PM on 06/09/2009
I have to disagree about the choice thing. I'm not going to just say "it's genetic" like that's proven. However, do you seriously think that people make a conscious decision about whether they want to be gay or no? I'm not gay, but I know several people who are, and none of them have the opinion that they "chose" to be gay. How do you think you would know that better than someone in that position?

Plus, if we look at it objectively, the world could really use less people. Not having children is probably a whole lot better for the planet and, ultimately, the species than having them is. It's hard to make this argument, but scientifically, it's true.

Because no one seems to be answering about the rights involved with marriages vs. civil unions, here they are:

Recognition: Marriages are valid in every state and in almost every country around the world. Civil unions, however, are available only in certain areas and are not recognized if the people involved move out of those areas. The rights involved with civil unions do not apply outside the area where they were granted.
The Federal Defense of Marriage Law prohibits the federal government from recognizing civil unions, so things like paperwork and taxes are infinitely difficult for civil union couples to file, and they get less benefits.