France Wants To Study Burqa Wear, May Ban It In Public

PARIS — France wants to study the small but growing trend of burqa wear, with an eye to possibly banning the Islamic garment from being worn in public, the government's spokesman said Friday.

Luc Chatel told France-2 television that the government would seek to set up a parliamentary commission that could propose legislation aimed at barring Muslim women from wearing the burqa and other fully covering gowns outside the home.

"If we find that use of the burqa was very clearly imposed (on women) ... we would draw the appropriate conclusions," Chatel said. Asked whether that could mean legislation banning the burqa in France, he responded "why not?"

In France, the terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black.

Chatel's comments have helped revive debate about whether wear of Islamic garments is appropriate in France, a country with a long and proud secular tradition.

In 2004, a law banning the Islamic headscarf and other highly visible religious symbols from French public schools sparked a heated debate on the issue. Proponents insisted such a ban was necessary to ensure France's schools remain strictly secular, while some Muslims countered the law specifically targeted them and unduly punished Muslim girls.

French Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said Friday that having a parliamentary commission study the issue would be a "good way" to find out how extensively burqas and niqabs are worn in France _ and what response might be adequate.

She conceded that legislating on what people can and cannot wear in public was a spiny matter, and also acknowledged it would be difficult to determine whether women wore the full-body veils because they were forced to or because they wanted to, Alliot-Marie said.

"It's a relatively complex problem," she told reporters.

The head of France's opposition Socialist party dismissed the issue, saying that in the middle of the global financial crisis, the country's legislators have more pressing matters to deal with.

France, which once held colonies throughout North Africa, has Western Europe's largest Muslim population. Muslims represent an estimated 5 million of the nation's 63 million people.

___

Associated Press writer Laurence Joan-Grange in Paris contributed to this report.

Comments

[spiderbucket]

12:49 PM on 06/29/2009

Ban it. In civilized nations, this is not necessary.

[Lupin77]

11:02 PM on 06/22/2009

Seems to me that just from a security point of view that this form of clothing would be an issue. In any case, it is a symbol of oppressing women and should not be allowed to be worn in any freedom loving society.

[southagain]

07:41 AM on 06/27/2009

It seems ironic to promote a restriction in a freedom loving society.

[spiderbucket]

04:14 PM on 06/29/2009

It's the same thing as banning kiddie porn. Not EVERYTHING should be allowed if it harms others.

[hrholmes]

02:06 PM on 06/22/2009

Has anyone ever thought that maybe these women(if it is a woman in there) feel more comfortable without having to show off their moustaches and beards or that maybe they are like 100 pounds overweight? just asking...

[MichaelinPhilly]

01:53 PM on 06/22/2009

You may all want to change venue :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/22/sarkozy-burqas-are-not-we_n_218920.html

[lwaxanatroi]

01:04 PM on 06/22/2009

Trouble is, you ban the full-body covering, and some women will never be allowed out of the house. Believe it or not, the covering (whatever you call it) is a liberator in that it allows women to travel abroad without male escort.

[ForeverXL]

01:25 PM on 06/22/2009

Then there is another problem that should be dealt with: education of these men and women.
If they do not want to take part in such an education programme, then I wonder why they are in France or any Western country in the first place.

If they want to continue their fanatic religious practice, please do so in your country of origins, but be respectful to your new home country by not only demanding, but also giving in and making concessions.

Concessions, a word many of those religious zealots - of any monolithic religion - have not heard of apparently. (Applicable to a couple of world stage events as well..)

[Yank in France]

01:33 PM on 06/22/2009

"Believe it or not", I live in France and I can tell you that French law is very strict about the treatment of women or other people held against their will. Frankly, I do not care if a woman truly wants to wear a burqua but there are two huge problems: (1) Many of these women are being forced by their husbands and or relatives to wear it against their will; and (2) In the age of terrorism and suicide bombings, burquas are an excellent way to undermine anti-terrorist efforts. Veils are another story, since even many Catholic women used to wear them in one form or another, not over their faces but to cover their hair. There is not much difference between full headscarves and veils in France, and the women wearing them also often wear lipstick, tight jeans and smoke...and who-knows-what else?! They represent a threat to no one, although I am still happy to see them banned in public schools where lacism (a nonexistent word in English which means government free from religious dogma). I don't expect my fellow Americans to understand such a distinction because it is very different from the prevailing mentality in the US where a woman carried on a long and very public battle to wear a full burqua for her driver's license photo!!

[ForeverXL]

01:45 PM on 06/22/2009

Bravo Yank in France.
I am glad you jumped the boat and explained to your own fellow Americans the status quo in France.

Sometimes it is hard for me as a European to make clear that we are not the US and that we have our own thoughts about what Freedom and such implies. You explain it very well, imho.

[Materazzi]

12:15 PM on 06/22/2009

That is a terrific idea. You shouldnt be allowed to walk about town with your face completely covered. Unless you live in zero below weather, you would have the cops called on you if you ran about town with a ski mask on...

[bismillah001]

07:49 AM on 06/22/2009

The French attitude toward structural inequality and racism seems to be "if you don't acknowledge it, it does not exist". This is coupled with an obsession with so-called "equality" that manifests as the denigration of individual rights to freedom of religion and expression. Has the mere sight of cultural or religious difference come to disgust people so much that a false uniformity must be imposed by the state? Is there a contradiction between being 'French' and being Muslim, or being 'French' and being Jewish? Is it wrong for people different from 'us' to articulate their identities publicly?

The main lines of argument against the right to Muslim cultural expression (other than blatant contempt for them) seem to be 1) covering the face is a security threat, 2) women who cover their faces are pressured to do so socially, 3) covering the face is disrespectful to French society, and 4) covering the face limits options for employment and civic engagement. I will address these in another comment.

[MichaelinPhilly]

09:19 AM on 06/22/2009

Absolutely what I've been trying to say.

[piul05]

12:01 PM on 06/22/2009

Thanks, that's the point I was going to make and I look forward to your next segment.

People miss the wider issue here, which is secularism turned into a state religion; I found that the books below throw some interesting light on the subject:

Brown, Wendy (2007) “Regulating Aversion – Tolerance in the Age of identity and Empire”

Mamdani, Mahmood (2004) “Good, Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, The Cold War and the Roots of Terror.”

Paugam, Serge, and Agnès van Zanten, (2001) 'Constructions identitaires et rapports sociaux
dans une cité défavorisée de la banlieue parisienne’, in "Exclusions au cœur de la
cité", ed. by Dominique Schnapper. pp. 19-68

Paugam, Serge (Eds.) (1996). “L'exclusion. L'etat des savoirs “

Wacquant, Loïc, J. D., ‘Banlieues françaises et ghetto noir américain: éléments de
comparaison sociologique’, in Racisme et modernité, ed. by Michel Wieviorka (Paris: La Découverte, 1993), pp. 265-279

[bismillah001]

12:43 PM on 06/22/2009

I have come across both (of the English) books, actually :) Unfortunately I don't speak/read French, though. Do you have any idea if there is a pdf of the Mamdani book anywhere online? I've been looking for it for a while.

[apolloguide]

01:19 PM on 06/22/2009

Perhaps you could read these books in your bibliography and then tell us what you think they say on the prison of the Burka and its wider implication regarding the subjugation of women (through religious zealotry) which is illegal in France.

[ForeverXL]

05:33 AM on 06/22/2009

Important development: an excerpt of the article from The Times author Chris Bremner.

"Women's groups, including some Muslim-led ones, back new measures against the practices of a growing but still small minority of radical Muslims.
Housing Minister Fadela Amara, a rights campaigner of Algerian background, said that she was alarmed by the number of women "who are being put in this kind of tomb". She added: "We must do everything to stop burkas from spreading."

Stop. Isn't it interesting to read that women and muslim women as well, albeit moderate ones, support the call to ban the burqa.

And even a Parisian imam endorses the call to ban the burqa:
"Muslim leaders have mixed views about new legislation. Imam of the Paris Mosque Dalil Boubakeur supported an inquiry, saying that face covering for women was a fundamentalist practice originating in Afghanistan that was not prescribed by Islam."

Beautiful development and it shows that the secularist people like myself are side by side with the moderate muslims who understand and support the cause for a ban on the burqa.

I am looking forward what the comments of my fellow posters on this topic, will be now again, on these new statements by Muslims themselves.

[FrTown]

10:04 PM on 06/21/2009

I feel compelled to intervene with a post to dispel some misconceptions and hence hopefully put a stop to all the negative, and big0ted comments.
I lived in the ME as part of my foreign service duties and in the course of the years spent in that region I learned a few things that I would like to share:
The black clothing shown in the picture is not called Burka. Burkas are worn mainly in Afgha.nistan. They are mostly blue in color. The black garment is called abaya is strictly cultural and has nothing to do with religi0n. Their religi0n recommends to dress modestly but no specifics were dictated. Covering the face is not mentioned anywhere in their book. It is again purely cultural.

[ForeverXL]

10:15 PM on 06/21/2009

This is an informative post, thanks for sharing.
However, this does not change anything about the justification for calling to ban the burqa. The reasons remain valid and I want to add that; emigrating to a new country far away from your own, obliges you to try and integrate at the very least. This does not mean they have to abandon all their cultural habits - assimilation for that. No, this means that certain cultural practices that are considered to be very backward in your new host country, should be abandoned. Not only for the many reasons already given throughout comments on this topic, but also as respect for your new country, that gives you a rood, food and money to live a new and better life.

[motherforpeace]

11:38 PM on 06/21/2009

"that are considered to be very backward in your new host country, should be abandoned."

Backward could be a relative term depending on who you talk to.

And I do believe that any person who is in a country and pays taxes and in return gets from it's benefits are entitled to it as any other citizen. I do believe people work to get that food, roof and money for a better life.

[Yank in France]

01:51 PM on 06/22/2009

Yes, wearing a burqua (and despite your valid point, that is what some are wearing here and the UK) is not written in the Koran and or other holy writings. As you say, it is purely a cultural matter, but the French feel it runs counter to their culture, just as declitorization is a cultural matter, and most countries oppose it. In short, it is wrong to persecutive Muslims, but as ForeverXL pointed out, moderate Muslims oppose these practicies. I would only add that you don't have to consider yourself to be moderate or anything political to oppose them. It is just a difference between the more sophisticated North African and European Muslims vs those influenced by the most extremist ideas of the Near East and beyond.

[Bafun]

09:13 PM on 06/21/2009

All these immigrants receive from the french government financial benefits like free school for their children, from kindergarden to university and free health care.
Where is the racism here?


Professor Dr, have ALL Americans these benefits????

[ForeverXL]

10:08 PM on 06/21/2009

Bafun don't let those people who scream intolerance at us get to you.
You are on the right track. Tolerance has its limits. No one of us have called for total ban on all Islamic dress. We only want the burqa to be banned and there are plenty of rational reasons to do that, given across tons of comments on this topic.

Yet, they label everything that you criticise on Islam and religion in general, as us being intolerant. It is a joke. Let them scream it until the dawn falls, they will get tired soon enough of it and stop.

We, Bafun, should never stop defending our moral plight to have a free and secular society throughout Europe. I am with you my friend and I am with all Muslims, Christians and other Religions who reject their extremes and choose the side of society's welfare in general as their friend.

[Bafun]

12:34 AM on 06/22/2009

You are right, but it's hard to hear this coming from Americans!
I must think about the African-Americans who have given their sweat and blood to help building this country and now the Mexicans working so hard work Americans don't want to do and the intolerance against atheist ...... and read that France is intolerant. I muss dream!

[longtimegone]

12:37 AM on 06/22/2009

"Moral plight?" Is that your Freudian slip showing?

[NPA]

08:46 PM on 06/21/2009

Burqa Couture! I gonna be rich!!!

[overcat]

04:25 PM on 06/21/2009

The fact that the garment covers the face and therefor conceals identity seems to be the defining issue. All religious and cultural arguments aside, it's fairly common to have laws or restrictions prohibiting people from wearing face concealing masks in public. Anyone who has spent any time in France knows that all manner of religious or non French garb is worn widely and routinely. The difference with the burqua is the face covering.

[motherforpeace]

11:34 PM on 06/21/2009

This is not entirely true. The head scarf is banned in certain places like school. I distinctly remember young girl who was told she couldn't wear even a bandana to school because it was for religious purposes so she shaved her head.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3708444.stm

[ForeverXL]

12:08 AM on 06/22/2009

The headscarf, just like any other religious symbol - the jewish skullcap, the cross-necklace, etc. - are banned from public schools (which are free for all French citizens) and all other public institutions.

That individuals take extreme measures to defy such a ban, says more about their tolerance towards an equal society, then the society's tolerance of religion.

[Lilith33]

03:17 PM on 06/21/2009

History of the burqa;
WIKI;

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran.

The chadri was created by one of Afghanistan's rulers trying to stop anyone from seeing his wives' faces. He came up with the chadri, which became a sign of an upper class citizen; however, as times changed, the new government decided that chadris weren't modern enough and banned them. The upper class people then gave them to their servants. The chadris in those days were made out of silk and the mesh at the front was lace.


What does that have to do with religion again?

[Ajita]

06:32 PM on 06/21/2009

Everything. It is imposed/promoted in the name of religion. Many religious traditions have non-religious origins. Religions have always been used to impose the whims of a few on the majority in the name of faith.

[Yank in France]

01:54 PM on 06/22/2009

Hmm, very good and succinct point. Thank you!

[yakaria]

06:41 PM on 06/21/2009

I wouldn't quote so handily from Wikipedia.

[riff4u]

01:36 PM on 06/21/2009

The French government must make these women take off the burqa. They must become "French." Therefore they must walk the streets half naked and NEVER TAKE A BATH.

[Bafun]

06:03 PM on 06/21/2009

You obviously know a lot about France and French people. May be you could travel a bit,
Travel broadens the mind.

[riff4u]

08:32 PM on 06/21/2009

Bafun, that last one was done tongue in cheek. I stereotyped a whole ethnic group of people and you didn't like it. The response I was looking for. The problem with most posts on this topic is a double standard. It seems it is okay to stereotype all Muslims as ignorant, backward, sexist, miscreants. But it's not okay to stereotype the French as smelly and stinky.

[tandrmcdonald]

01:24 PM on 06/21/2009

Okay, then while they're at it they might also consider banning the rabbinical robes and yamulke, the Catholic nun's habit, the long cassocks worn by Catholic priests and monks, Hindu saris and Tibetan monks' robes. I think the burqua is an ugly form of female discrimination, but if you make it unlawful, then you have to include the others as well. What next, Scottish kilts? Bathrobes? Prom dresses?

[Bafun]

01:34 PM on 06/21/2009

All of what you are citing here are allowed, also the long black coat and veil or hijab, also chador but not the burqa hidding totally the face.

[Lilith33]

03:21 PM on 06/21/2009

You can at least see their face no?
Fyi;
History News Network;

Anyone might lurk under those shrouds – female or male, Muslim or non-Muslim, decent citizen, fugitive, or criminal – with who knows what evil purposes.

"The Niqab and Burqa as Security Threats"): A spectacular act of would-be escape took place in early July, when Maulana Mohammad Abdul Aziz Ghazi, 46, tried to flee the Red Mosque complex in Islamabad, Pakistan, where he had helped lead an insurrection aiming to topple the government. He donned a black burqa and high heels but, unfortunately for him, his height, demeanor, and pot belly gave him away, leading to his arrest.

One of the July 2005 London bombers, Yassin Omar, 26, took on the burqa twice – once when fleeing the scene of the crime, then a day later, when fleeing London for the Midlands.

Other male burqa'ed fugitives include a Somali murder suspect in the United Kingdom, Palestinian killers fleeing Israeli justice, a member of the Taliban fleeing NATO forces in Afghanistan, and the murderer of a Sunni Islamist in Pakistan.

Burqas and niqabs also facilitate non-political criminal behavior. Unsurprisingly, favorite targets of robberies include jewelry stores (examples come from Canada, Great Britain, and India) and banks (Great Britain, Bosnia, and two 2007 attacks in Philadelphia). Curiously, in Kenya, street prostitutes have donned buibuis (which reveals slightly more of the face than a niqab), the better to blend into the night population and avoid the police