France Wants To Study Burqa Wear, May Ban It In Public

PARIS — France wants to study the small but growing trend of burqa wear, with an eye to possibly banning the Islamic garment from being worn in public, the government's spokesman said Friday.

Luc Chatel told France-2 television that the government would seek to set up a parliamentary commission that could propose legislation aimed at barring Muslim women from wearing the burqa and other fully covering gowns outside the home.

"If we find that use of the burqa was very clearly imposed (on women) ... we would draw the appropriate conclusions," Chatel said. Asked whether that could mean legislation banning the burqa in France, he responded "why not?"

In France, the terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black.

Chatel's comments have helped revive debate about whether wear of Islamic garments is appropriate in France, a country with a long and proud secular tradition.

In 2004, a law banning the Islamic headscarf and other highly visible religious symbols from French public schools sparked a heated debate on the issue. Proponents insisted such a ban was necessary to ensure France's schools remain strictly secular, while some Muslims countered the law specifically targeted them and unduly punished Muslim girls.

French Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie said Friday that having a parliamentary commission study the issue would be a "good way" to find out how extensively burqas and niqabs are worn in France _ and what response might be adequate.

She conceded that legislating on what people can and cannot wear in public was a spiny matter, and also acknowledged it would be difficult to determine whether women wore the full-body veils because they were forced to or because they wanted to, Alliot-Marie said.

"It's a relatively complex problem," she told reporters.

The head of France's opposition Socialist party dismissed the issue, saying that in the middle of the global financial crisis, the country's legislators have more pressing matters to deal with.

France, which once held colonies throughout North Africa, has Western Europe's largest Muslim population. Muslims represent an estimated 5 million of the nation's 63 million people.

___

Associated Press writer Laurence Joan-Grange in Paris contributed to this report.

Comments

[spiderbucket]

Ban it. In civilized nations, this is not necessary.

[Lupin77]

Seems to me that just from a security point of view that this form of clothing would be an issue. In any case, it is a symbol of oppressing women and should not be allowed to be worn in any freedom loving society.

[southagain]

It seems ironic to promote a restriction in a freedom loving society.

[spiderbucket]

It's the same thing as banning kiddie porn. Not EVERYTHING should be allowed if it harms others.

[hrholmes]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe these women(if it is a woman in there) feel more comfortable without having to show off their moustaches and beards or that maybe they are like 100 pounds overweight? just asking...

[MichaelinPhilly]

You may all want to change venue :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/22/sarkozy-burqas-are-not-we_n_218920.html

[lwaxanatroi]

Trouble is, you ban the full-body covering, and some women will never be allowed out of the house. Believe it or not, the covering (whatever you call it) is a liberator in that it allows women to travel abroad without male escort.

[ForeverXL]

Then there is another problem that should be dealt with: education of these men and women.
If they do not want to take part in such an education programme, then I wonder why they are in France or any Western country in the first place.

If they want to continue their fanatic religious practice, please do so in your country of origins, but be respectful to your new home country by not only demanding, but also giving in and making concessions.

Concessions, a word many of those religious zealots - of any monolithic religion - have not heard of apparently. (Applicable to a couple of world stage events as well..)

[Yank in France]

"Believe it or not", I live in France and I can tell you that French law is very strict about the treatment of women or other people held against their will. Frankly, I do not care if a woman truly wants to wear a burqua but there are two huge problems: (1) Many of these women are being forced by their husbands and or relatives to wear it against their will; and (2) In the age of terrorism and suicide bombings, burquas are an excellent way to undermine anti-terrorist efforts. Veils are another story, since even many Catholic women used to wear them in one form or another, not over their faces but to cover their hair. There is not much difference between full headscarves and veils in France, and the women wearing them also often wear lipstick, tight jeans and smoke...and who-knows-what else?! They represent a threat to no one, although I am still happy to see them banned in public schools where lacism (a nonexistent word in English which means government free from religious dogma). I don't expect my fellow Americans to understand such a distinction because it is very different from the prevailing mentality in the US where a woman carried on a long and very public battle to wear a full burqua for her driver's license photo!!

[ForeverXL]

Bravo Yank in France.
I am glad you jumped the boat and explained to your own fellow Americans the status quo in France.

Sometimes it is hard for me as a European to make clear that we are not the US and that we have our own thoughts about what Freedom and such implies. You explain it very well, imho.

[princemmk]

hey dude, b4 you want to say something or do something, why not first figure it out the reasons of "why" islam encourages women's to wear burka in the first place?

Let me give you an example. Suppose you see a guy moving his body and hands up and down.. what will you think at first if you do not have any knowledge or experience about it?... he is mad, or probably crazy. That's what you will think. But if you try to find out, the question "why" and "what" this guy is doing .. and you found out that he is doing yoga, you will have a clear image of it.

Same goes to wearing of burka by women. Do you know how many crimes took place in USA? and mostly in European part?.. why don't you go and find some statistics? is you people, who report the rape crime .. and still don't have any clue why it happened?

wearing burka, firstly, prevents you from danger as people cannot look at your face nicely, in other words does not know how u look like and moreover, it doesn't reveal women's body.. which guy or even girl can just fall for it.

[ForeverXL]

Sounds like you paint the perfect picture of society in Saudi Arabia.

Now, welcome to France a country where women are not the ones punished for the men who cannot control themselves, These men will go to jail, unlike in many ME countries where a raped woman will get stoned for being raped.

Logic like yours, et voila.

[Materazzi]

That is a terrific idea. You shouldnt be allowed to walk about town with your face completely covered. Unless you live in zero below weather, you would have the cops called on you if you ran about town with a ski mask on...

[bismillah001]

The French attitude toward structural inequality and racism seems to be "if you don't acknowledge it, it does not exist". This is coupled with an obsession with so-called "equality" that manifests as the denigration of individual rights to freedom of religion and expression. Has the mere sight of cultural or religious difference come to disgust people so much that a false uniformity must be imposed by the state? Is there a contradiction between being 'French' and being Muslim, or being 'French' and being Jewish? Is it wrong for people different from 'us' to articulate their identities publicly?

The main lines of argument against the right to Muslim cultural expression (other than blatant contempt for them) seem to be 1) covering the face is a security threat, 2) women who cover their faces are pressured to do so socially, 3) covering the face is disrespectful to French society, and 4) covering the face limits options for employment and civic engagement. I will address these in another comment.

[MichaelinPhilly]

Absolutely what I've been trying to say.

[piul05]

Thanks, that's the point I was going to make and I look forward to your next segment.

People miss the wider issue here, which is secularism turned into a state religion; I found that the books below throw some interesting light on the subject:

Brown, Wendy (2007) “Regulating Aversion – Tolerance in the Age of identity and Empire”

Mamdani, Mahmood (2004) “Good, Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, The Cold War and the Roots of Terror.”

Paugam, Serge, and Agnès van Zanten, (2001) 'Constructions identitaires et rapports sociaux
dans une cité défavorisée de la banlieue parisienne’, in "Exclusions au cœur de la
cité", ed. by Dominique Schnapper. pp. 19-68

Paugam, Serge (Eds.) (1996). “L'exclusion. L'etat des savoirs “

Wacquant, Loïc, J. D., ‘Banlieues françaises et ghetto noir américain: éléments de
comparaison sociologique’, in Racisme et modernité, ed. by Michel Wieviorka (Paris: La Découverte, 1993), pp. 265-279

[bismillah001]

I have come across both (of the English) books, actually :) Unfortunately I don't speak/read French, though. Do you have any idea if there is a pdf of the Mamdani book anywhere online? I've been looking for it for a while.

[apolloguide]

Perhaps you could read these books in your bibliography and then tell us what you think they say on the prison of the Burka and its wider implication regarding the subjugation of women (through religious zealotry) which is illegal in France.

[MichaelinPhilly]

I also saw somewhere (the bookstore at the University of Pennsylvania, a while back) a book called "The Politics of the Veil." Couldn't bring myself to pay full price. Don't remember the author's name. An American feminist, civil-rights activist who'd spent time in France and thought there was clearly xenophobia involved in this (and in French society at large).
And before any of our European friends object to my saying that, did I say there were no such problems here? I actually like France, otherwise I wouldn't care about this issue. Just like when the forums of Le Monde or Le Figaro fill up with people calling us barbarians because we have the death penalty, no restrictions (sic) on selling or carrying arms, and too many people who like fast food. Not that anyone here would be among those commenters.... :-)

[Yank in France]

You make a whole of generalizations about the French, their culture and their attitude towards Muslims, but how much have you actually experienced inside France? Did you know, for example, that opinion polls show that Muslims in France support the proposals limiting the practices of the most extremist Muslims sects? Did you know that Muslim women overwhelmingly support the banning of veils in public schools? Did you also (not) know that the prohibition against wearing veils applies ONLY to public schools? Women wear veils all the time in France, and many, if not most, of them are quite modern. France has the largest Muslim population in Europe (the largest Jewish as well!) and, despite all the neocon propaganda in the US and Israel, there is much less Islamic militancy, not to mention terrorism, than in free speech Great Britain or (formerly free speech) Netherlands. And then there is the US, where one federal govt bureaucrat refused to file charges against Mohammad Atta after he tried to strangle her and threatened to kills Americans. My friends, I am not asking anyone to embrace the French way of thinking (I certainly don't in many, many areas), but this attitude of the "American way or the highway" is utterly unacceptable!

[apolloguide]

While you manufacture and cherry pick your own arguments instead of engaging those already offered: Perhaps you will cover genital mutilation, honor killings, stonings and other such expressions of the religious subjugation of women?

I am very happy that you did not call the atheists in this discussion anti-Semitic. I take it you do not like the French and their efforts to have a just society.

Perhaps Iran or Israel or America is more in keeping with your ideal of State Religion, or perhaps Spain, or Italy are more to your liking. Why not mix religion with business and the military and have the perfect fascist combination?

[ForeverXL]

I couldn't agree more. :)

[piul05]

I believe you're off the mark here; this is not an issue about having a just society, but about uniformity as a tool for exclusion.

If this were only about having one's face covered - be it by a burqa (worn only by a tiny minority) or any other garment - there wouldn't be any of this discussion; it would be common sense and it would be phrased in a different way. The point is that this is the latest in a worrying trend in France in dictating the terms of people's "Frenchness" in general, and targeting the Muslim community in particular. France prides itself as a country of assimilation, rather than multiculturalism and yet, prevents that same assimilation by treating the cultural manifestations of a particular minority as inferior, and by actively excluding the people from that community from the job and housing market. In turn, the community, being reject by maistream French society, turns to family traditions for identity, widening the cultural cleavage.

Secularism was supposed to enable equality; when it becomes a tool for disenfranchisement, then it's no better than a theocracy.

[ForeverXL]

Just like Middle Eastern countries are entitled to their rights of demanding Westerns to accommodate their clothing habits to the standards of their country.

Just like that, France can demand an inch of integration from these women that have found a new home in a different country than the one of their origins. By simply asking them to leave the most backward habits behind them.

France and Europe in general is not like the US. Europe is built upon different principles and has not the same constitution as the US has, so there is no valid comparison. Tolerance and freedom can only exist in a mutual understanding of what is the consensus. And the consensus in modern day France is that it is about time for religious or cultural backward rituals to abandon them.

Enlightenment, Freedom and all those other great values that Western society has fought for internally and externally are not based upon the notion that everyone can do and act the way they want. That would be anarchy. The beauty of these concepts is, that they can only be valid and in action by the act of reason.

Read my post before yours. It shows Muslim women supporting the calling for a burqa ban. Welcome to 21st Century France.

Home of Enlightenment.

[ForeverXL]

Important development: an excerpt of the article from The Times author Chris Bremner.

"Women's groups, including some Muslim-led ones, back new measures against the practices of a growing but still small minority of radical Muslims.
Housing Minister Fadela Amara, a rights campaigner of Algerian background, said that she was alarmed by the number of women "who are being put in this kind of tomb". She added: "We must do everything to stop burkas from spreading."

Stop. Isn't it interesting to read that women and muslim women as well, albeit moderate ones, support the call to ban the burqa.

And even a Parisian imam endorses the call to ban the burqa:
"Muslim leaders have mixed views about new legislation. Imam of the Paris Mosque Dalil Boubakeur supported an inquiry, saying that face covering for women was a fundamentalist practice originating in Afghanistan that was not prescribed by Islam."

Beautiful development and it shows that the secularist people like myself are side by side with the moderate muslims who understand and support the cause for a ban on the burqa.

I am looking forward what the comments of my fellow posters on this topic, will be now again, on these new statements by Muslims themselves.

[FrTown]

I feel compelled to intervene with a post to dispel some misconceptions and hence hopefully put a stop to all the negative, and big0ted comments.
I lived in the ME as part of my foreign service duties and in the course of the years spent in that region I learned a few things that I would like to share:
The black clothing shown in the picture is not called Burka. Burkas are worn mainly in Afgha.nistan. They are mostly blue in color. The black garment is called abaya is strictly cultural and has nothing to do with religi0n. Their religi0n recommends to dress modestly but no specifics were dictated. Covering the face is not mentioned anywhere in their book. It is again purely cultural.

[ForeverXL]

This is an informative post, thanks for sharing.
However, this does not change anything about the justification for calling to ban the burqa. The reasons remain valid and I want to add that; emigrating to a new country far away from your own, obliges you to try and integrate at the very least. This does not mean they have to abandon all their cultural habits - assimilation for that. No, this means that certain cultural practices that are considered to be very backward in your new host country, should be abandoned. Not only for the many reasons already given throughout comments on this topic, but also as respect for your new country, that gives you a rood, food and money to live a new and better life.

[motherforpeace]

"that are considered to be very backward in your new host country, should be abandoned."

Backward could be a relative term depending on who you talk to.

And I do believe that any person who is in a country and pays taxes and in return gets from it's benefits are entitled to it as any other citizen. I do believe people work to get that food, roof and money for a better life.

[Yank in France]

Yes, wearing a burqua (and despite your valid point, that is what some are wearing here and the UK) is not written in the Koran and or other holy writings. As you say, it is purely a cultural matter, but the French feel it runs counter to their culture, just as declitorization is a cultural matter, and most countries oppose it. In short, it is wrong to persecutive Muslims, but as ForeverXL pointed out, moderate Muslims oppose these practicies. I would only add that you don't have to consider yourself to be moderate or anything political to oppose them. It is just a difference between the more sophisticated North African and European Muslims vs those influenced by the most extremist ideas of the Near East and beyond.

[Bafun]

All these immigrants receive from the french government financial benefits like free school for their children, from kindergarden to university and free health care.
Where is the racism here?


Professor Dr, have ALL Americans these benefits????

[ForeverXL]

Bafun don't let those people who scream intolerance at us get to you.
You are on the right track. Tolerance has its limits. No one of us have called for total ban on all Islamic dress. We only want the burqa to be banned and there are plenty of rational reasons to do that, given across tons of comments on this topic.

Yet, they label everything that you criticise on Islam and religion in general, as us being intolerant. It is a joke. Let them scream it until the dawn falls, they will get tired soon enough of it and stop.

We, Bafun, should never stop defending our moral plight to have a free and secular society throughout Europe. I am with you my friend and I am with all Muslims, Christians and other Religions who reject their extremes and choose the side of society's welfare in general as their friend.

[Bafun]

You are right, but it's hard to hear this coming from Americans!
I must think about the African-Americans who have given their sweat and blood to help building this country and now the Mexicans working so hard work Americans don't want to do and the intolerance against atheist ...... and read that France is intolerant. I muss dream!

[longtimegone]

"Moral plight?" Is that your Freudian slip showing?

[NPA]

Burqa Couture! I gonna be rich!!!

[overcat]

The fact that the garment covers the face and therefor conceals identity seems to be the defining issue. All religious and cultural arguments aside, it's fairly common to have laws or restrictions prohibiting people from wearing face concealing masks in public. Anyone who has spent any time in France knows that all manner of religious or non French garb is worn widely and routinely. The difference with the burqua is the face covering.

[motherforpeace]

This is not entirely true. The head scarf is banned in certain places like school. I distinctly remember young girl who was told she couldn't wear even a bandana to school because it was for religious purposes so she shaved her head.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3708444.stm

[ForeverXL]

The headscarf, just like any other religious symbol - the jewish skullcap, the cross-necklace, etc. - are banned from public schools (which are free for all French citizens) and all other public institutions.

That individuals take extreme measures to defy such a ban, says more about their tolerance towards an equal society, then the society's tolerance of religion.

[Lilith33]

History of the burqa;
WIKI;

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran.

The chadri was created by one of Afghanistan's rulers trying to stop anyone from seeing his wives' faces. He came up with the chadri, which became a sign of an upper class citizen; however, as times changed, the new government decided that chadris weren't modern enough and banned them. The upper class people then gave them to their servants. The chadris in those days were made out of silk and the mesh at the front was lace.


What does that have to do with religion again?

[Ajita]

Everything. It is imposed/promoted in the name of religion. Many religious traditions have non-religious origins. Religions have always been used to impose the whims of a few on the majority in the name of faith.

[Yank in France]

Hmm, very good and succinct point. Thank you!

[yakaria]

I wouldn't quote so handily from Wikipedia.

[riff4u]

It's a persons interpretation. You have Christians out in Texas and Utah, the Mormans, who wear 19th century full covering long dresses. Most are happy to submit to their husbands and they are often members of polygamous marriages. Those who don't like it leave the sect. The evangelical right also practices female submission to men. In other words you have almost as many Christian sects as there are Christians. The Jews also have the strict Hasids as well as non observant secular Jews. The Christians have their New Testament and the Jews have the Torah and Talmud. From the same books you get all kinds of interpretations. The Muslims have the Quran. Not all Muslims are the same you should not lump them all together, the media already has done that for you.

[Bafun]

In Utah the mormons are not wearing full covering long dresses. The people you are describing are out of the law living sect-people fundamentalist mormons.
Sorry you don't "leave" the sect if you don't like it because you are brainwashed and forced to stay. there are enough testimonies from women who didn't leave the sect but escaped.

In all case what you are describing here support my

[augustus99]

Yes the burqa makes somewhat of a possession out of women, and is equally demeaning to men. It implies that men have no self control. If we see a woman's face or shape we will of course be beside ourselves with 'urges.'

[riff4u]

The French government must make these women take off the burqa. They must become "French." Therefore they must walk the streets half naked and NEVER TAKE A BATH.

[Bafun]

You obviously know a lot about France and French people. May be you could travel a bit,
Travel broadens the mind.

[riff4u]

Bafun, that last one was done tongue in cheek. I stereotyped a whole ethnic group of people and you didn't like it. The response I was looking for. The problem with most posts on this topic is a double standard. It seems it is okay to stereotype all Muslims as ignorant, backward, sexist, miscreants. But it's not okay to stereotype the French as smelly and stinky.

[tandrmcdonald]

Okay, then while they're at it they might also consider banning the rabbinical robes and yamulke, the Catholic nun's habit, the long cassocks worn by Catholic priests and monks, Hindu saris and Tibetan monks' robes. I think the burqua is an ugly form of female discrimination, but if you make it unlawful, then you have to include the others as well. What next, Scottish kilts? Bathrobes? Prom dresses?

[Bafun]

All of what you are citing here are allowed, also the long black coat and veil or hijab, also chador but not the burqa hidding totally the face.

[Lilith33]

You can at least see their face no?
Fyi;
History News Network;

Anyone might lurk under those shrouds – female or male, Muslim or non-Muslim, decent citizen, fugitive, or criminal – with who knows what evil purposes.

"The Niqab and Burqa as Security Threats"): A spectacular act of would-be escape took place in early July, when Maulana Mohammad Abdul Aziz Ghazi, 46, tried to flee the Red Mosque complex in Islamabad, Pakistan, where he had helped lead an insurrection aiming to topple the government. He donned a black burqa and high heels but, unfortunately for him, his height, demeanor, and pot belly gave him away, leading to his arrest.

One of the July 2005 London bombers, Yassin Omar, 26, took on the burqa twice – once when fleeing the scene of the crime, then a day later, when fleeing London for the Midlands.

Other male burqa'ed fugitives include a Somali murder suspect in the United Kingdom, Palestinian killers fleeing Israeli justice, a member of the Taliban fleeing NATO forces in Afghanistan, and the murderer of a Sunni Islamist in Pakistan.

Burqas and niqabs also facilitate non-political criminal behavior. Unsurprisingly, favorite targets of robberies include jewelry stores (examples come from Canada, Great Britain, and India) and banks (Great Britain, Bosnia, and two 2007 attacks in Philadelphia). Curiously, in Kenya, street prostitutes have donned buibuis (which reveals slightly more of the face than a niqab), the better to blend into the night population and avoid the police