French Lawmaker: Burqa Ban Can Be Gradual

PARIS — French legislators took up the touchy subject of face-covering, body-length Muslim veils such as the burqa Wednesday, as a leading lawmaker softened his calls for an outright ban by suggesting the garments could be forbidden gradually.

France's questioning of the veils has raised hackles among some Muslim groups abroad and prompted threats from an al-Qaida affiliate based in Algeria. French President Nicolas Sarkozy said last month that burqas make women prisoners and that they would not be tolerated in France.

The National Assembly, the lower house of parliament, put together a committee of 32 legislators from all four major political parties to study the wearing of burqas and niqabs, face-covering veils worn primarily by women in Saudi Arabia and by some other Muslim women.

The committee held its first meeting Wednesday.

The head of the governing conservative party UMP, Jean-Francois Cope, has called for a ban on the veils in France. On Wednesday, he was quoted in Le Parisien newspaper as suggesting that any ban should not be "hasty."

Instead, he suggested a two-stage effort, "a ban preceded by six months to a year of dialogue, explanation and warnings."

France is home to western Europe's largest population of Muslims, estimated at 5 million. A small but growing group of French Muslim women wear full-body robes and veils that cover everything but the eyes.

Cope insisted that it's a "political debate, not a religious one."

He said the veils pose "a problem of security and public order" because they conceal the wearer's identity. "These clothes exclude women from the national community, deny their identity," Le Parisien quoted him as saying.

Last week, al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb, AQIM, issued a statement on Islamic Web sites vowing to "seek vengeance against France" over Sarkozy's comments about the veils. The declaration could not be independently verified.

Human Rights Watch has said a ban would be counterproductive, and a top British Muslim group said Sarkozy's comments were patronizing and offensive. Lebanon's most influential Shiite cleric called on the French leader to reconsider his statement.

Comments

[EmeraldWorld]

France claims it is a secular state, yet it wants to specifically prevent Muslim women from expressing a part of their culture because of the "knowledge" that "they're being forced to wear the burqa by Muslim men". That could be the case for some, but certainly not for ALL of the women. How utterly hypocritical of France.

[HPdevotee]

sec·u·lar
1. not concerned with religion: not controlled by a religious body or concerned with religious or spiritual matters.

How exactly is France being hypocritical?

[EmeraldWorld]

Look at your definition. If it is indeed a state not controlled by a specific religious body and no concerns for religious matters, then it should have no problem with an individual's choice of religious expression. Nonetheless, France IS contradicting itself by targeting Muslim women for their veils.

[Fromageball]

I thought the entire law also included Christian cross/Jewish yarmulke, etc? All religious symbols.

[xAnotherReaderx]

I've always been taught that an inclusive society works better than an exclusive one. Multiculturalism can truly be a beautiful thing. That said, I also believe one has to respect the culture of a nation. If the French believe that wearing a burqa will somehow affect the assimilation of women into the French culture and lifestyle, it is the country's right to ask for the removal of such a garment for both cultural and security reasons.
I also don't like the double standard I read about from Muslim groups who are outraged that France wants the burqa banned. The talk about human rights and religious rights has no foundation when non-Muslims in various countries are denied the right to dress in expression of their own religious beliefs and culture. In fact, countries like Saudi Arabia have imposed dress codes.
If people argue that the burqa should be allowed in France, then women in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, etc should be afforded the right to choose NOT to wear a burqa or whatever other garment a religous leader deems proper. Before people start talking inclusion in other nations, they need to ensure that their own society is inclusivie.

[Hirnlego]

Ban the burka (Pat Condell)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48
I'm not quite sure where I stand myself atm.

[HPdevotee]

Lifting the Veil – A Consideration of Circumstances, Sheikh Sami al-Majid, professor at al-Imam Islamic University, Riyadh

"It is important for Muslims living in non-Muslim countries to be aware of these matters. Muslims have a right to petition for their legitimate religious rights. Part of this means knowing what those rights are and what is reasonable to demand. In many non-Muslim countries, the government and the people are willing to accommodate the needs of the Muslims. When Muslims demand to be accommodated by non-Muslim countries under circumstances which Islamic Law itself deems exceptional and where Islamic Law makes concessions, this leads to unnecessary tensions between the communities which might lead to a souring of relations between them."
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=1050

The part that I want to emphasis is this "...which Islamic Law itself deems exceptional and where Islamic Law makes concessions.."
(con't)

[HPdevotee]

(con't)
From my understanding, nowhere in the Qu'ran is a burqa required..in fact, no specific face covering is ever indicated either. A head covering enough to pull down over the bosom is what, I believe, is all that's mentioned on this. Now, through interpretation by some fundamentalist Muslims, the burqa became mandatory but this was not a item you saw much of outside of Afghanistan and extreme regions of Pakistan, until now.
The above professor (in S.Arabia, no less) has pretty much said that Islamic Law makes 'concessions' for NOT wearing the burqa due to the fact that the Qu'ran itself is fuzzy on this particular garment. And he seems to be arguing for community relations to be put first.

It would then seem that this issue is really more about oppression than it is about religion. Here in the US an analogy would be the fundamentalist LDS 'compounds' in Utah. The girls and women there also believe they are following some interpretation of the Bible by marrying at 13, by men having multiple wives, by the females all conforming to each other in their dress and hair styles, etc.. because this is what they have been taught. Deep, systematic, indoctrination into fundamentalists beliefs will produce contorted human beings who truly feel they are 'making a choice' and will even argue for their own subjugation. It's a very crazy-making phenomenon but one I assure you exists.

(apologies for such a long post :)

[bismillah001]

The problems your argument are:

1) French Muslims are not "petitioning for their legitimate religious rights"; they are demanding their *human right* to freedom of religious expression not be taken away. It is a human rights issue, not a 'Muslim demand' as you've spun it. An appropriate example would have been a demand for multiple wives to all be legally recognized as such.

2) The insinuation that being Saudi gives someone's religious opinion additional weight is a baseless cliche.

3) The burqa/niqab / fundamentalist Mormon compound equivocation fails on every level.

3a) A burqa does not incestuously ra pe you or

3b) force you to marry or bear children against your will or

3c) place you to a closed physical space wherein you are likely to be subjected to the aforementioned abuse or

3d) physically force you to remain inside of it should you desire to step out of it

Some women are forced to wear the niqab/burqa, but most are not (remember: FRANCE, not Afghanistan). For those who are forced, the physical threat/violence is what should be targeted - not the clothing itself.

[mike71]

I am curious how the Anglos Saxxons and the Franks are really thinking knowing that within our life time, Europe will be mostly Mu.slim. Mu.slim will be eventual majority who will vote in their best interest.

At then end of the day, Mu.slim has managed to use the core value of Western civilation, Democracy, to finally take over Europe.

The same thing has happened to the Ancient Egyptians. How will the Anglos and Franks (who they themselves were responsible for the down fall of Roman Empire, no less) react to this seemingly inevitable.

I know it is quite politically incorrect but that is the topic really interests me.

[bismillah001]

"Mu.slim has managed to use the core value of Western civilation, Democracy, to finally take over Europe."

Don't worry, mike, that's not politically incorrect...

It's empirically incorrect.

[bismillah001]

Let's all state our positions on this debate without insulting one another, as best we can. This would be good to keep in mind:

"UNTO every community have We appointed [different] ways of worship, which they ought
to observe. Hence, [O believer,] do not let those [who follow ways other than thine] draw thee
into disputes on this score, but summon [them all] unto thy Sustainer: for, behold, thou art
indeed on the right way. And if they [try to] argue with thee, say [only]: "God knows
best what you are doing."'

Al-Qur'an, 22:67-68

[HPdevotee]

"Those who would admonish contemptuous comments, should then not offer contempt themselves"

Hypocrisy 101

[bismillah001]

Oh no, I have no problem with heated debate and searing critiques of others' positions; I just don't like the name-calling and personal insults. There's a distinction. And that admonishment was for myself as much as anyone else; I often find myself stooping to the level of petty mockery when engaging others in these forums. So if you're suggesting that by posting a reminder addressed to "us" and "we", I'm somehow implying that I embody its ideal and am preaching to others, your sarcasm is misguided.

[PeaceIsMyName]

Sarkozy wants women to be more like his wife, Carla Bruni, and have nude pictures of themselves all over the Internet.

I would advice those women who are being forced to dress-down against their will to protest against it by continuing on wearing it whether the government tries to enforce their ludicrous law or not. In fact, the majority of Muslim women don't even wear full covering - but they should wear it in solidarity with their fellow sisters in faith to show support (non-Muslims too).
Government should get out of people's personal life. Those Muslim women are not hurting anyone. This is religious bigotry and xenophobia by the French government.

If thousands of women wear the veils out of protest - what is the government going to do? Arrest them all? Let's see what they do.
Peacefully protest and fight for your rights French Muslim women! You have my full support!

[riff4u]

If Fance leaves the issue alone the Burqa would probably die a natural death. By banning it more women will delibrately wear it out of protest. There is no need for government to get involved.

[arle]

This is merely a wedge issue being used to grab votes. That's the only reason this is /really/ being touted at all -- to capitalize on Islamophobia.

[NevaforLeadership]

The quicker, the better.

[arle]

Why not? You don't happen to be in the affected minority so why should you care, right?

[passinby]

O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.

Al-Qurran ( Al-Hujjurat 49:13)

[Paula Ann]

Ameen

[geedeck]

This story and many of the comments here are very saddening. I can't believe the hostility towards a shaped piece of cloth.

Religion comes in many forms, and we should be willing to support it in all it's form unless there is shown to be a direct negative cause. Who is to say whose religion is more superior? Why should we force people to wear or not wear certain garments? Contrary to what the French lawmakers say, these things are not prisons. Many women who wear them, like them. They find it appealing to only share their physical features with their direct family, or to have men never glace at them. I don't feel the same way, I mean I find walking across Ohio State Univ's Oval during the summer with it's bikini'd sunseekers to be a perfectly delightful thing, but people should have the freedom to choose or not choose something.

Denying burkas is really just as bad as imposing them. It's telling someone how to live, and it's just not right. Sometimes I am amazed that France was one of fellow founders of modern democracy.

And the people here who are so adamantly against them? You clearly need to experience more of the world, and open up your closed minds. To do otherwise is a disservice to our global society. We are no longer in perfectly isolated little cultures, and we must not only acknowledge that, but embrace the changes it brings.

[NevaforLeadership]

The hostility is not the piece of cloth; it is the coercion and absurdity of what is behind it.

[passinby]

Whats behind it o' wise one? Modesty, pleasing her Lord, pleasing her husband, oh how terrible. Please ppl are so threatened by Islam it funny watching and how you react..

[JaneQCitizen]

No, we shouldn't support it in all its forms.

Religion, all religion, is superstitious nonsense and should be ridiculed out of existence at every turn.

[bismillah001]

"superstitious nonsense", huh.. Might that also apply to, say, patriotism and nationalism?

"ridiculed out of existence at every turn"?

Haha wow.. I don't really know where to begin.. It vexes like a Zen koan.

[WilliamL]

if it is so important to wear the religious uniforms, why not wear them in a country them where they came from as in, umm, how many of these folks are actually French born.

[bismillah001]

Millions of Muslims in France are French-born, but I suspect that makes little difference to you, seeing as your "question" ended with a period. How Freudian a slip.

The point is that France professes to value human rights and freedom of religion. Unfortunately, some right-wing politicians like Sarkozy choose to interpret "secularism" (and no it is not something so uniquely "French" that it can't be translated) to mean the lack of a right to be visibly different or religious (in most cases, to be "visibly Muslim"). That is unacceptable, and it is a shame so many commenters here are tripping over themselves to jump on the right-wing bandwagon on this issue. Pretty funny, actually.

[liviapeacock]

This is a first step in helping the Islamic culture accept that their centuries old practice of objectifying women has to end. Sure they want to wear it, they have brainwashed for centuries to believe that Allah wants them to be covered.

A man made them cover themselves and now it is steeped into their culture, just as genital mutilation is steeped into some African cultures.

Just because something has been happening for centuries and people have been brainwashed by their society and their religion to think it is good, does not make it so.

The Burqa is frightening thing to come across. Muslim women can wear a head scarf that aloows other human beings to make eye contact with them.

Even in the animal world, if you can not make eye contact, the most basic form of communication, you are not going to survive. Humans are animals.

[arle]

You do know that a burka does not actually cover the eyes, right? Have you even seen burkas?

[HPdevotee]

Try again, sport.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/09/afghanistan-rape-widespre_n_228142.html

[bismillah001]

Being a westerner, I'm probably about as confounded by the burqa as anyone else in our mainstream culture. I also get a little unnerved when I see someone with tattoos on their face or those earrings that stretch out the lobe really far. But I'm not so unaccepting of people to try to ban something just because I don't have a cultural frame of reference for it.

The public security argument is a total cop-out and everyone knows it. The real reason people want to ban this is because it makes them all squirmy inside to think that someone would openly eschew their mainstream culture so strongly. Get over it.

Also, in the animal world, the bigger animals eat the smaller ones, generally. Should we massacre short people? I mean I'm totally down if you want to.

[jennluv]

I completely fail to see how forbidding women to wear the burqa would help anything. If you believe these women are being forced to wear this clothing against their will by the opressive men in their lives (as I'm sure some of them are) then what do you think will happen when they can no longer wear it? Will their husbands suddenly let them appear "unclothed" on the street, or will they simply forbid them to leave the house? Of course, once they are locked in their houses the problem vanishes from the public eye and everyone gets to feel better... except the women, who are even more opressed than before. Even those who wear it it by choice may feel uncomfortable outside their home without it and restrict their movements accordingly.

[NevaforLeadership]

It is just a first step.

[longtimegone]

What's next: re-education camps?