Letterman Proposes New Test To Settle Question Of Caster Semenya's Gender (VIDEO)

Caster Semenya, the young track and field star who has wowed the world with incredible race times, is under suspicion, not for performance-enhancing drugs but for gender issues. Her family swears she's a woman, but tests that could prove that are murkier than one would expect. Enter David Letterman. Last night, Dave introduced a new test that, while crude, comes up with incontrovertible results.


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[yankeetwo]

02:18 PM on 09/19/2009

Having read today that "Athletics South Africa's president Leonard Chuene has apologised for denying knowledge of gender tests conducted (in SA) on runner Caster Semenya," we must now question whether he's really a man! This whole issue would have been a non-starter if he had only the b**** to speak up.

[yankeetwo]

02:15 PM on 09/19/2009

It seems to me that the real question here is "was Caster Semenya singled out for special treatment?" And it seems to me that she certainly was.

In the interest of fairness, if Caster is going to be subject to such tests, why are not ALL athletes required to take them? OTHER athlete's genders are not determined by "tests!" Why was she subject to them, but not others? It seems to me that she was tested only because she is unusually fit, i.e. strong for a woman (but isn't that what athletics selects, i.e. looks for in athletes?), and because she performed exceedingly well (again...).

Then, what is the standard for gender in athletics? So far, it seems that it is made up as they go along. Is it genitalia? Is it chromosomes? What if the two contradict each other? Which prevails? And if a person with female genitalia tests male according to her chromosomes, is she then permitted (under our ridiculous, gender biased nudity laws) to go topless (in the US)? Is she then free to use the men's bath and locker rooms? Is she Prohibited from using woman's facilities?

We should agree that either ALL woman athletes be tested "to be sure they are not actually men," or that nobody will ever again be subject to these humiliating "tests."

[JooJooMan]

04:46 PM on 08/25/2009

If she establishes a "fund", an experienced lawyer can disprove those scientific tests in court. She should fight this to the bitter end.

Even DNA tests as we have just learned can be fabricated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html?_r=1

[klm68]

02:39 AM on 08/25/2009

Letterman's "joke" is what you'd expect from a thirteen year old boy. Someone else's sex or gender being questioned is funny to some people, but they wouldn't find it funny if it happened to them. It's not just sexism, it's important to be fair to her competitors, too.

Physical inspection is not always conclusive, and chromosomal variations occur. Also, a crossover between the X and Y chromosomes during sperm production can make an X chromosome carrying the SRY gene (and a corresponding Y chromosome lacking SRY) , resulting in an XX male or an XY female offspring. XY people with 3-alpha reductase deficiency begin life with a female appearance, and become masculinized at puberty (some are raised as girls, then grow up to be men). Adrenal hyperplasia and PCOS can masculinize a genetic female. Androgen insensitivity can result in a fully feminized genetic male.

María José Martinez Patiño is genetically XY but androgen insensitive (see The Lancet, 2005, about her case and about testing in general). She once failed the chromosome test (to her surprise) and was barred; it took her three years to get the confusion cleared up.

There isn't a clear, categorical solution to this problem. It's not that some people are on the borderline, it's that there is no borderline. The key issues are philosophical: what do we mean when we say "man" and "woman", and how do we balance fairness for the individual with fairness for their competitors?

[cinemabon]

07:03 PM on 08/24/2009

I'd like a date, Caster... what the hell, either way, you can't go wrong... am I right?

[PishTush]

03:24 PM on 08/24/2009

Ask to see her birth certificate, since nowadays we ask for everyone else's!

[factotem]

05:29 PM on 08/22/2009

Yeah , the full pits seem to suggest it's a man baby.

[heroine addict]

03:36 AM on 08/22/2009

I would venture to guess that women competing in sports develop higher testosterone levels?

...but there is always the outside chance that she may be...yes, folks...

...a hermaphrodite.

Perhaps sporting events can introduce a "third" gender class for those that don't fit into the rigid binary category...it would certainly keep things interesting, as well as confuse the hell out of the homoerotic jock demographic.

Just think of the possible product endorsements and collectible memorabilia marketing.

[juhar]

09:55 AM on 08/24/2009

The "third" gender calls has been a part of civilized society since its creation. That "third" gender is called "freaks" and has been used to discriminate against people who don't fit someone in power definition of normal. "Freaks" are the cornerstone of most religions demonizations.

This is nothing new but some of the old "hate" that fuels so-called civilized societies.

[heroine addict]

03:13 PM on 09/05/2009

...no dis on hermaphrodites, just making fun of the rigidity of the binary status quo.

[heroine addict]

09:05 PM on 09/10/2009

...called it.

[Ken Maddox]

11:21 PM on 08/21/2009

I know the following is wrong. I know I shouldn't say such things. I will be damned to eternal torture, but damn it I just can't resist.

It is true and very hurtful that all the girls that have penises are laughed at and ridiculed.

There I've said it, and I am very sorry for having done so.

[Poorsarah]

10:46 PM on 08/21/2009

Classic Dave all the way; very funny.

[mj22]

08:18 PM on 08/21/2009

she could be somewhere in between or "intersex"...there are variations in gender that don't always fit into the female/male binary. it's actually not all that uncommon.

[MJinCanada]

12:57 AM on 08/22/2009

Too true, I was just thinking the same thing.

[Two Cents]

10:01 PM on 08/22/2009

It's a wee dicey . . . I mean, what stuff and how much of it do you need to be a specific sex, male or female? Certainly women who have had either oopherectomies or hysterectomies (sps?) are still considered females. Would someone with XXY chromosomes be considered female or are only folks with XX chromosomes female? Do people with XY chromosomes "become" female if there genitalia (sp?) are made to mimic a ("naturally born") female's? Even if a person had XX chromosomes, non-surgically female genitalia and a uterus with ovaries, if that person has--say due to some hormone thing going on--great upper body strength, more muscle than fat than most females, short hair, facial hair, a deeper voice and other male secondary sex characteristics, is that person "female"? And so on. Maybe the least invasive medical test would be chromosome testing . . . at least it's better than examining her genitalia, which is absolutely v. creepy. By the by, here she is interviewed: http://www.mahalo.com/caster-semenya . And I'll be perfectly honest: I wouldn't know she was a women unless she were socially "coded" via clothing, hair, walk, etc. Hope she'll be okay . . . she seems pretty easy going about the whole affair, so that's in her favor ref. trauma.

[kitfox]

07:59 PM on 08/21/2009

I'm taking issue with this. If she has been brought up and raised as a female how shattering it will be to find IF her chromosomes are male rather than female.. Can you image the hurt? The humiliation? She was teased as a little girl.. Oy I can't imagine the pain!!!! I just think this is cruel. I clearly saw a female when I watched her run. Yes she looks extremely mannish however I will continue to view and respect her as a female.

[dlvme2]

04:29 AM on 08/22/2009

I guess I am not that bright, but why can't she just have a physical and if she has female genitalia that were not surgically done and an ultrasound showing she has an uterus and ovaries etc. that I would think would be enough. She grew up as a girl and IF she has female genitalia and did not undergo a sex change operation then this should be dropped and she should be given an apology. It is getting to the point that I don't care to watch big sporting events any longer.

[FR]

01:28 PM on 08/22/2009

There's nothing wrong with your intelligence, it's just that science has uncovered all kinds of murky complications. You have to factor in chromosomes and genitalia (and sometimes they don't match) as well as hormones and other factors.

Turns out, even science isn't absolutely sure sometimes.
Which begs the question, how reliable are the tests themselves gonna be.
One more reason for people to give tolerance a try.

[davidhilton1]

07:00 PM on 08/21/2009

ouch!

[yankeetwo]

06:18 PM on 08/21/2009

I've got a better test: after each event, she can just rip off her shirt, just as any man might. If the "authorities" still think she's a man, she can hang out in any local park, topless, until some cop shows up. She can then tell him she's a man, and to bugger off.

And if she's forced to compete as a man, she will of course use men's locker rooms, and see if anyone THERE thinks she's a man. When she's strutted her stuff everywhere a man can, or does, where she'd BETTER not get any grief, and where she'd BETTER not get arrested for it, THEN, let's see whether anyone still thinks she's a man.

From an athletic point of view, a woman having a strong, male-like body has an advantage. However, athletics naturally selects for strong, male-like women. Many successful female athletes are much more male-like than other females. As far as anyone should be concerned, it's what hangs, or does not hang so much between her legs that matters.

Even if her chromosomes ARE XY, she must still be regarded as a woman. Who's to say WHICH criteria, if they conflict with each other (and we don't know that they do), should be observed? We don't judge OTHER athlete's gender by their chromosomes! I say, if she was born with female genitalia, she's a woman. Period.

[juhar]

09:59 AM on 08/24/2009

Shaaawooosh. I didn't know where you comment was leading but I'm in total agreement with your last two paragraphs.

[wsmcke]

02:03 PM on 08/24/2009

Interesting thought.... What if a genetic man, but with an appearance of a woman were to take off his/her shirt in a park, could they be prosecuted?

[Shirley Fisk]

04:30 PM on 08/21/2009

8/21/09
4:30pm
Sunny Isles Beach, FL

She looks female to me. Isn't that enough?