Supreme Court To Take On Chicago Handgun Ban

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MARK SHERMAN | 09/30/09 09:40 PM | AP

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WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court says it will take up a challenge to Chicago's ban on handguns, opening the way for a ruling that could set off a vigorous new campaign to roll back state and local gun controls across the nation.

Victory for gun-rights proponents in the Chicago case is considered likely, even by supporters of gun control, in the latest battle in the nation's long and often bitter dispute over the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. A ruling against the city's outright ban could lead to legal challenges to less-restrictive laws across the country that limit who can own guns, whether firearms must be registered and how they should be stored.

The case is to be argued early next year.

Last year, the justices struck down a prohibition on handguns in the District of Columbia, a city with unique federal status, as a violation of the Second Amendment. Now the court will decide whether that ruling should apply to local and state laws as well.

The court has previously said that most, but not all, rights laid out in the Constitution's Bill of Rights serve as checks on state as well as federal restrictions. Separately, 44 state constitutions already enshrine gun rights.

Though faced with potential limits from the high court on their ability to enact laws and regulations in this area, 34 states weighed in on the gun- rights side before the justices agreed to take the case Wednesday, an indication of the enduring strength of the National Rifle Association and its allies.

The gun case was among several the court added to its docket for the term that begins Monday. Others include:

_ A challenge to part of a law that makes it a crime to provide financial and other aid to any group designated a terrorist organization.

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_ A dispute over when new, harsher penalties can be given to sex offenders who don't register with state sex offender databases.

_ Whether to throw out a human rights lawsuit against a former prime minister of Somalia who is accused of overseeing killings and other atrocities. The issue is whether a federal law gives the former official, Mohamed Ali Samantar, immunity from lawsuits in U.S. courts.

In the gun case, outright handgun bans appear to be limited to Chicago and suburban Oak Park, Ill. But a ruling against those ordinances probably would "open up all the gun regulations in the country to constitutional scrutiny, of which there are quite a few," said Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor whose recent book "Out of Range" explores the often bitter national debate over guns.

Already, Alan Gura, who led the legal challenge to the Washington law and represents the plaintiff in Chicago, is suing to overturn the District of Columbia's prohibition on carrying firearms outside a person's home. Illinois and Wisconsin have similar restrictions.

In voiding Washington's handgun ban last year, Justice Antonin Scalia suggested that gun rights, like the right to speech, are limited and that many gun control measures could remain in place.

Ultimately, said Tushnet, the court will have to decide, possibly restriction by restriction, which limits are reasonable.

"It's very hard to know where this court would draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable," he said.

NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said he hopes the court rules that "core fundamental freedoms like speech, religion and, we believe, the right to keep and bear arms are intended to apply to every individual in the country."

Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said the court's decision to take up the new case was unsurprising in light of last year's ruling.

These cases should "take the extremes off the table," Helmke said, referring to bans on guns and unlimited gun rights. "What's critical for us is how the court goes about fleshing out what the limits are."

Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, which under state law requires handgun permits and a safety course, said he hopes the court brings clarity to gun laws. "My hope is that they will decide that reasonable restrictions, which I think is the way most reasonable people in this country think, are appropriate," Bloomberg said.

The 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago had upheld the gun bans as legitimate expressions of local and state rights.

Judge Frank Easterbrook, an appointee of President Ronald Reagan, wrote in the ruling that "the Constitution establishes a federal republic where local differences are to be cherished as elements of liberty rather than extirpated in order to produce a single, nationally applicable rule."

"Federalism is an older and more deeply rooted tradition than is a right to carry any particular kind of weapon," Easterbrook wrote.

Evaluating arguments over the extension of the Second Amendment is a job "for the justices rather than a court of appeals," he said.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor, then an appeals court judge, was part of a three-judge panel in New York that reached a similar conclusion in January.

The high court took the suggestion Wednesday.

Judges on both courts – Republican nominees in Chicago and Democratic nominees in New York – said only the Supreme Court could decide whether to extend last year's ruling throughout the country.

The New York ruling also has been challenged, but the court did not act on it Wednesday. Sotomayor would have to sit out any case involving decisions she was part of on the appeals court. Although the issue is the same in the Chicago case, there is no ethical bar to her participation in its consideration by the Supreme Court.

She replaced Justice David Souter, who dissented in the 5-4 Washington case, so the five-justice majority remains intact.

Several Republican senators cited the Sotomayor gun ruling, as well as her reticence on the topic at her confirmation hearing, in explaining their decision to oppose her confirmation to the high court.

The case is McDonald v. Chicago, 08-1521.

___

Associated Press Writer Sara Kugler in New York contributed to this report.

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court says it will take up a challenge to Chicago's ban on handguns, opening the way for a ruling that could set off a vigorous new campaign to roll back state and local...
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court says it will take up a challenge to Chicago's ban on handguns, opening the way for a ruling that could set off a vigorous new campaign to roll back state and local...
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- mackbolan I'm a Fan of mackbolan 5 fans permalink
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for jackbutler....why the obsession with the phrasing.....if history teaches us anything it is that the right to self-defense was and is a natural right....a long bow was as effective in 1742 as a musket was...no one would have said to a native american..."you can't carry that weapon with you..you have to leave it at home along with your natural right to defend yourself"....no one would have told david crockett that he could not roam the tennessee hills with his gun....it was and is apparent that the right to go armed existed before the u.s existed....the 2nd amendment appears confusing only to those who wish to see it that way....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:05 AM on 10/22/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Actually--the longbow was more effective--with several times the effective range and a rate of fire about 5 to 10 times greater

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:45 PM on 10/27/2009
- mackbolan I'm a Fan of mackbolan 5 fans permalink
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tell us prayforroy.....what is the population of chicago again.....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:53 AM on 10/22/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Jade--we can all play top of the post, per the Supreme Court==your gun bans are not going to happen

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:19 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

I see DJC does not wish to answer the challenge.

Little wonder, he cannot.

Here's an article by law professor Michael Dorf:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20080627.html

Key graf:

"The majority opinion by Justice Scalia—joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito—expressed no doubt that the Second Amendment was originally understood to recognize a personal right (that is, not simply a right to use a gun while part of a militia). The opinion finds nothing but confirmation of that reading in the post-enactment history of the Amendment, at least until recent decades. Indeed, Justice Scalia uses variants on the word “clear” over a dozen times to describe the language or public understandings of the Second Amendment.

Meanwhile, in dissent, Justice Stevens—joined by Justices Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer—also thought the meaning of the Second Amendment was clear, although they thought it clearly did not protect the possession or use of firearms outside the context of military service."

In the meantime, we'll wait..and wait..for DJC to produce that 9-0 decision.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:25 PM on 10/21/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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Scalia, Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito all joined in the majority decision

Stevens dissent, joined by Souter, Ginsberg, and Breyer, said that: "The question presented by this case is not whether theSecond Amendment protects a “collective right” or an“individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right."

Breyer's dissent, joined by Stevens, Souter, and Ginsberg, said: "In interpreting and applying this Amendment,I take as a starting point the following four propositions,based on our precedent and today’s opinions, to which I believe the entire Court subscribes:
(1)
The Amendment protects an “individual” right—i.e., one that is separately possessed, and may be separately enforced, by each person on whom it is conferred."

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:11 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

DJC: "I do know that the people who get paid the big bucks to decide this (the justices of the Supreme Court) agreed 9 to none that there was an individual RKBA, but split 5-4 on degree of scrutiny--which means that there will be several cases beyond McDonald to flesh out degree of scrutiny etc if the 2nd amendment gets incorporated as expected"

DJC has made this bogus claim before. But let's give him an opportunity to show us the 9-0 decision of the SC concerning the RKBA.

To help him along, here are several sites he may wish to visit in his research:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov

http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/supreme.html

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:14 PM on 10/21/2009

Part 2

What's this militia stuff? How does this apply to individuals? And well-regulated? Hey, the word usually arouses libertarians and semi-libertarians. Why would they want to talk about militias that are regulated for? It's all in the introductory clause. Why? Why didn't they say: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

They didn't say that but they could have. And the reason they did not means that that introductory clause narrowed this right. You can argue about the meaning of this conditional clause, but you can't argue convincingly that it meant no restriction.

Why is this important? After all, the law is what the Supreme Court says it is. I think it's important for people to reach their own conclusions about such a potentially ambiguous amendment by interpreting the words themselves. And the interpretation of those who believe that the right to bear arms is undiluted have to deal with the conditional introductory clause. I don't see how they can.

Having said that I, in no way, want to take guns away from people capable of using them responsibly.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:30 PM on 10/21/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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Jack,

The first part to understanding the sentence of the Second Amendment is to throw away the notion that the sentence is a compound sentence made up of two clauses. Instead, one must become familiar with a construct called an absolute phrase.

A clause consists of a subject and a predicate. Predicates contain a finite or action verb. In the first thirteen words of the Second Amend., there is no predicate and no finite verb. What there are are a few phrases. The first four words (a well regulated militia) are a noun phrase. The remainder are a participial phrase attached to the noun phrase. These two phrases come together to make a larger phrase, an absolute phrase.

In the last fourteen words of the sentence we have a subject (the right), modified by a particpial phrase and a gerund phrase, and we have a predicate complete with finite verb. These come together as an independent clause.

Absolute phrases do not attach to or modify the subject of the clause their are associated with. They stand outside the grammar of the clause and act adverbially to address the entire clause, giving background information and they are not restrictive. In this case the action of the predicate is to forbid infringement.

Therefore, the first thirteen words do not say when the right exists, why the right exists, or limit or restrict the right. What they do is give a reason, not the reason, why the right shall not be infringed.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 10/21/2009

First, thanks for taking the time to examine this subject in so much depth.

Second, who am I to debate a guy who knows what absolute phrases are.

Third, I don't think I should dismiss what you say about the absolute phrase. But if it is there -- at the very beginning of the amendment -- and if it has the purpose simply to indicate one -- just one -- reason the right shouldn't be infringed, why include it all? The framers didn't think it necessary to include such a phrase in the First Amendment. In fact, much of the Bill of Rights is quite pithy.

But you're throwing me with the absolute phrase business -- and you have so much detail. I can promise you I'll give it more thought. But I'm still wondering why the framers bothered to include it, given their tendency toward sparse prose. Why waste words on just one reason?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:07 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

OE's grammatical contortions are, of course, utter nonsense.

But, let's assume, for now, OE is 100% accurate. Let's assume that the Founders intended to word the 2A in this manner to guarantee an individual right.

Why did Madison draft the 2A to originally read:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."

If we take OE's twisted grammarical logic, then it clearly means the 2A was about military service.

We also know from history, that none of the Founders took issue with Madison's original draft with tyhe notable exception of the "religiously scrupulous" clause. It was felt that the Govt. could then exclude certain religious groups from military service.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:23 PM on 10/21/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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The right to keep and bear arms is not dependent on participation in a mailitia.


As for "well regulated", that refers to militias, not to the right or the people who have the right. Well regulated in the meaning of the time, meant properly functioning, adjusted, or being proficient.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 PM on 10/21/2009

You're right. Well-regulated does refer to militias. And maybe well regulated means what you say it means. But why include it? If they omitted it, the NRA would have an easy time of it. Then it would be indisputably a general license to keep and bear arms. Don't you wish the framers left that phrase out?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:11 PM on 10/21/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Also, at the time the 2nd amendment was written--the group in the militia was somewhat larger than the group eligible to vote

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:59 PM on 10/21/2009

Good point. But if they intended to mean that everybody has the right to keep and bear arms, who mention the militia at all?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

Exactly.

Had the intent of the Founders been for unrestricted access to firearms by all citizens--it certainly would have been very easy to write something along the lines of "Congress shall make no law restricting the access of citizens to firearms."

But they didn't.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:00 PM on 10/21/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is unclear only to you, the BC/VPC, Kell and SL

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 10/21/2009

Part 1

When the Founding Fathers wanted to expressly forbid restricting freedom of expression etc, for example, their language is plain.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

So, if they wanted to express an unambiguous right to bear arms, would they not begin this amendment with something like:

"Congress shall pass no law restricting the right to bear arms."

But they chose not to do that. Instead, they wrote:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Part 2 below

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:29 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

LegalEagle: "Kates, Don B. and Mauser, Gary A., Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence (May 2006)."

It's noteworthy many to most of LE's references go to internet sites and non-peer-reviewed journals.

But let's examine Mauser and Kates. This review is riddled with errors (that's a nice way of putting it); I'll highlight a few.

Take Mauser on Australia; he gets the year wrong on when their firearm restrictions took place--not a big error, but how is it difficult to get it wrong? Mauser also claimed that homicide rates in AUS were flat after the new regulations for several years but then began climbing after 2001. This is false.

Mauser then compares AUS to the US and claims the homicide rate began to decline during the same period. Again, this is simply false.

All of this isn't surprsing stuff from Mauser. See:

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2004/06/mauser.php

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 AM on 10/21/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

I will take Kates and Mauser over your beloved Bellesisles and Kellerman

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

Nobody says you aren't free to believe in Santa and the Easter bunny, DJ.

But as we see, you are willing to accept the findings of folks who demonstrably wrong. So, we can assume you are unserious.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:53 PM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

DJ writes: "Another downside to the JAMA studies is that many of them claim to use the methodology that linked tobacco use and lung cancer/COPD. With the tobacco studies, it is a fairly safe assumption to go with the idea that asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, and the tobacco linked cancers do not cause smoking (so cause and effect are clear), but in terms of guns and causation/­­preventio­n of violence, it is harder to differentiate cause and effect (how many of the firearms are being carried by law abiding people who have either been crime victims or live/work in bad neighborhoods and how many are being carried by people involved in criminal enterprises and how these 2 groups interact. In Chicago, South Central Los Angeles and DC, the vast majority of the firearms are being carried by gangbangers, drug dealers and the like which will skew the results"


Patently false. In both instances (tobacco and guns), the case-control method is used. If we look at a tobacco study, we see researchers noted whether people were more at risk for cancers because of other factors such as: occupation, genetic predisposition, health, diet, race, gender, age, etc. Similarly, gun studies have factored in such behavioral and environmental factors as alcohol/drug use, criminal background, economic conditions, etc.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 10/21/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Prayforjade--I stand by what I said--do not forget, your history of posting is one of obfuscation, stats that are wrong and misleading, and a total inability to tell the truth except by accident

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:59 AM on 10/21/2009
- prayforroy I'm a Fan of prayforroy 5 fans permalink

Good for you, DJ. Please stand by your abject ignorance.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 PM on 10/21/2009
- mackbolan I'm a Fan of mackbolan 5 fans permalink
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dj....did you know that the pro-rkba people on this site are all members of a secret cabal out to demean dreamweaver...and we all answer to odinseye...
----------­----------­----------­----------­----------­----------­----------­----------­----------­---
dreamweaver....how do you get around the fact that we have over 300 years of being an armed society...at which point in history can you point to the colonists or the indians or the generations that have come since being unarmed...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 AM on 10/20/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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"the pro-rkba people on this site are all members of a secret cabal out to demean dreamweaver...and we all answer to odinseye..."

Shaddup! You can't go blabbing that kind of stuff and still be a "secret" cabal. You got rocks for brains or sumthin? Djeez! One more time and I'l canx your membership and take back the secret decoder ring! Now lock it up and turn to page 26 of the secret NRA playbook....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 PM on 10/20/2009
- mackbolan I'm a Fan of mackbolan 5 fans permalink
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hahahahaha...where does she get this stuff from....

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:22 AM on 10/21/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

This is for SL, DW, Kell and shewholapdances--if there is such a long history of the SUpreme Court supporting the collective rights interpretation of the 2nd amendment--how about coming up with a list of Supreme Court decisions stating just that--especially since legaleagle and others have provided a list of SCOTUS decisions supporting the individual interpretation

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:54 PM on 10/18/2009
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DJ: You keep writing! What is it? I don't like to ignore you when you're polite ...(silly me and my code of manners), but there is nothing to discuss now.
SheWhoLapDances is a guy and a gunner I believe. Sort of making fun of the moniker "shedances." (I could be mistaken on that ..because it's my guess.) Maybe you meant SheWhoWatches; I noticed you're one of her fans. Surprise! As you know, there is no long history of Supreme Court decisions on the 2nd Amendment issues: 1939, Miller; 2008, Heller. On these two decisions, we have different sets of interpretations and that leads to argument, not discussion. The Chicago case is next before the Court, and I think we should wait and see what happens because that could change the tone and substance of any discussion. And we have had a problem with "tone." Meanwhile, I recommend we read SL's book suggestion: "Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy: An Economic Analysis of the Attack on Gun Control." Let's set a date for our book discussion in about two weeks. Is that enough time for you? I know you are an avid reader. Thanks for writing, DJ. I just don't think a discussion now before the Court decides the Chicago case would be fruitful. I'm sure the book will give us much to explore, however.
DW

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:15 PM on 10/18/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

legaleagle has supplied you with several, even the Dred Scott decision dealt with it-- one one of the reasons Justice Taney voted against freedom for Scott was that if Scott was a freeman--he would have a right to be armed. In terms of SL--if there was more supporting the collective rights interpretation (which was presented and REJECTED in Heller--which also listed several cases-I prefer to let you do your own reading of the cases so you are not affected by my biases--but since I read Heller and the associated briefs--I know there are many more than 2 cases involved here, if you look at the briefs)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 PM on 10/18/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

I tried looking up the article--but since I finished college 15 years ago--all I can find online is the abstract--while I am willing to look at it, since I am not a professor or educator, I do not have access.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 10/18/2009
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Of course, gun, uh, enthusiasts, ADORE it that Heller rejected the collective right argument because, against all the previous history of the SCOTUS, all precedent cited by Stevens and Breyer and a long line of other judges (whether you accept their stature or not), "The Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller,^ for the FIRST TIME IN ITS HISTORY, expressly and explicitly adopted the individual-right theory of the Second Amendment.*" (my emphasis)

Maybe you folks can find the "stable url."

"Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy": An Economic Analysis of the Attack on Gun Control
Author(s): Philip J. Cook and James A. Leitzel
Source: Law and Contemporary Problems, Vol. 59, No. 1, Kids, Guns, and Public Policy
(Winter, 1996), pp. 91-118
Published by: Duke University School of Law
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1192211

But just because something is old doesn't mean it's good, just because something is novel doesn't mean it's good either, and in Heller, Scalia managed to go against the whole tradition of precedent being a very large factor in SCOTUS. If I were a gun lover, I'd be geeked about that, too -- it's kind of like being dominated in a soccer game and then scoring a goal -- it's called a goal "against the run of play."

But I'm moving on to the next article, and won't be back to this one. Enjoy yourselves.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:18 PM on 10/07/2009
- OldSFMJT I'm a Fan of OldSFMJT 10 fans permalink
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Well, our arrogant southern liberal commenter has done it again! His so-called source document link is in fact just another dry hole!

Specifically, his link takes you to a very brief and valueless excerpt from the work he supposedly cites. From there, any permutation of a search for "Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy" resulted in basically the same results: amazon.com, directtextbook.com, shop.com, bookfinder.com. In other words, short of buying a book, we cannot examine his source information.

I think that makes him 0 for 5 as far as usable source documents is concerned!

I guess I’ll leave it to the reader to judge SL’s credibility.

Best,
Old SF MJT

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 AM on 10/08/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Last time I checked--providing uncheckable sources can cause loss of tenure (look at what happened to Michael Bellisles (author of Arming America) who lost his tenured position and the Bancroft award for playing fast and loose with sources)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:52 PM on 10/13/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

SL--if there was a long history of SCOTUS ruling that the 2nd Amendment protected only a "collective" right under the 2nd Amendment--you would have been able to provide all sorts of SCOTUS opinions stating just that--so far all you have provided are dissents and lower court decisions

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:40 PM on 10/16/2009
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DJ:
Even before we get a chance to begin our discussion, there's interference - which is perhaps of an obsessive nature. This is a public forum. But maybe you can tell them to butt out. I won't be part of any "circle jerk" that has gone on before (as someone once aptly named the condition). I'm willing to disucss, argue, debate with you. And I hope that your part would not be a group effort.
I stay off the island of the lord of the flies.

SewaneeLeftist may have a copy of the article. I waiting to hear from him again.

DJ--prayforroy asks a question above: were you threatening SewaneeLeftist?
What does your comment mean? I would like to know. That's important to me.

Thanks.
DW

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 10/20/2009
- OdinsEye I'm a Fan of OdinsEye 63 fans permalink
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Philip J. Cook is a professor of public policy, sociology, and economics and a vehement gun controller.

James A. Leitzel is a professor of economics and public policy and also a gun controller.

Neither are professors of constitutional law.

Regardless, while this is the first time that the USSC has made an absolutely clear, definitive ruling that says that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual one, the assertion that this decision reverses or goes against all previous precedent is patently false. The USSC has issued dozens of opinions which refer to the right to keep and bear arms or Second Amendment and the majority of them acutally support the individual right reading.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 AM on 10/21/2009
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I knew NO research would EVER satisfy you guys, but this idea that academic libraries are top secret is a new one. I mean, I reject ALL of your claims, but I at least look at them before rejecting them as the recast NRA planks that they are. For example, I looked at your DOJ/BOJ statistics; like all statistics, they can be taken your way or mine. 66% of murders committed with firearms may be a low statistic to you. That's why I like the analytical evidence I quoted -- gives methodology, draws conclusions, makes suggestions.

NONE of what I quoted should be hard to find. You can find this stuff at the public library, and not even NEED to use the Internet. Google it. Some of the best stuff is in the very balanced Wikipedia article -- even the ACLU links to it.

But I can't do your research for you.

Even though it'll make no difference to the gun, uh, ENTHUSIASTS, I'll give chapter and verse to my evidence. That's to satisfy me, not to convince you; evidently you folks think I make up what these people are saying. You won't believe me, but I've never done that. As a teacher, misquoting is almost as big a sin to me as, say, confusing brandishing with carrying or calling something an assault weapon when it fits some other Byzantine category is to you.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:20 PM on 10/07/2009
- OldSFMJT I'm a Fan of OldSFMJT 10 fans permalink
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SL wrote: “I mean, I reject ALL of your claims, but I at least look at them before rejecting them as the recast NRA planks that they are.” Wow! That’s really great! You look at our source documents! Funny, maybe we’d like to have the same opportunity! After all, we do everyone here the courtesy of making our cited source documents readily available. That’d be a courtesy we’d like to see you extend as well. But then, courtesy seems to be a commodity you have in extremely short supply!

Also, you might try remembering that there are many who come here to read & gain insight and who might not want to go through the internet gymnastics you seem to feel are reasonable!

Then SL wrote: “But I can't do your research for you.” WOW! Seems that, while courtesy is scarce in your world, arrogance isn’t!

Old SF

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:33 PM on 10/07/2009
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I don't take lessons in manners from people with guns (and as I always predict you will, you can call me as many names as you want), but I will ask this as politely as I can ; you can't look things up online? (Hint: Go to Google, put the title in quotation marks, hit return.)

And politely, I ask, and if you can't do that, I'm supposed to trust you with guns?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 10/07/2009
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You can't look up things on the Internet? But I'm supposed to trust you with guns?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:22 PM on 10/07/2009
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Your references can't be checked if all of them are in reference libraries that require specialized access--just like a military officer referencing something in a classified Pentagon memo--others can not reference and check the research

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 PM on 10/07/2009
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More bloviating from SewaneeLeftist! "You can't look up things on the Internet? But I'm supposed to trust you with guns?" A complete non sequitur! What does not being able to (legally) gain access to a password-protected website have to do with the safe handling of a firearm?

And, frankly, WHY would any of the pro-gun folks here give a rat’s hind-parts whether you would trust us with a firearm? Somehow, I really don’t think gaining YOUR trust rates very high on any of our priority lists!

Old SF MJT

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:17 PM on 10/07/2009
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Martin:
I stopped by to read SewaneeLeftist's posts because they inform me. But here you are talking about "bloviating" and "a rat's hind-parts." Martin, that's not nice. You are too argumentative. If you want to discuss issues with other posters instead of just talking to the same pro-RKBA guys, try to stop mocking and using crude terms when replying to the others. Who wants to be around posters who talk like that?
Peace,
DW
FiFieFum

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:15 PM on 10/07/2009
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Research that SewaneeLeftist should read, with good links...

J. NORMAN HEATH, Exposing the Second Amendment: Federal Preemption of State Militia Legislation, 79 U. Det. Mercy L. Rev.39 (2001).

The above Law Review Article is a tour de force exposing the facalies of the "collective rights theory" by delineating the case law from the courts which directly extinguishes any of the so called protections afforded by said interpretation.

http://guncite.com/journals/heath.html

Nicholas J. Johnson, IMAGINING GUN CONTROL IN AMERICA: UNDERSTANDING THE REMAINDER PROBLEM

The above Law Review Article takes a pragmatic approach to the issue of gun control legislation and demonstrates why gun control laws can not work in the USA.

http://lawreview.law.wfu.edu/documents/issue.43.837.pdf

Kates, Don B. and Mauser, Gary A., Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence (May 2006).

The above article by examines the international evidence concerning correlations between firearms "density" and homicide and suicide rates. The paper is available for download here:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998893

Tell me when you are ready for some more... perhaps you would like to actually read case law, such as Miller? How about the case relied upon by Miller, Amyette, which will clear up any ambiguities of what Miller might mean...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:48 PM on 10/06/2009
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Folks,
I can't help it if I have more research resources than you do. However, I'm convinced that you expert researchers can get to any source, as is the practice in current scholarship. (In the latest MLA citation stylebook (7th ed.), they no longer require URL's, in citations, they just put "Web." In other words, they're quite confident that everybody can use the web to find material and check sources.)

But while I'm here, here's some more of what I consider evidence, a great article I encourage everyone to find with his or her great research skills:

Medlock, S. (2005). NRA = NO RATIONAL ARGUMENT? HOW THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION EXPLOITS PUBLIC IRRATIONALITY. Texas Journal on Civil Liberties & Civil Rights, 11(1), 39-63. http://search.ebscohost.com

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:17 PM on 10/06/2009
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SL,
The references you link to in all of your recent posts are worthless! All go to password-protected web-sites, meaning that no one else can verify the material you reference! For all we can prove, you’re linking to recipes for gumbo!

And, sorry, but with your track record we’re not taking your word!

Nice ruse, though!

Old SF MJT

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:44 AM on 10/07/2009
- djcrsn I'm a Fan of djcrsn 17 fans permalink

Just like many academics I have been around--while many of them are acknowledged experts in one area (often quite narrow--like breeding habits of smelt in the San Joaquin Delta)--and then proceed to pretend they are experts in an other area. I have seen the same thing with entertainers (because they used firearms in a serious of shootemup films, we are supposed to kowtow to the political posturing of people with educations not much beyond high school who want to ban guns just as badly as SL does)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:03 PM on 10/07/2009
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