Troops In Afghanistan Outnumber Taliban 12-1

digg Share this on Facebook Huffpost - Troops In Afghanistan Outnumber Taliban 12-1 stumble reddit del.ico.us RSS

SLOBODAN LEKIC | 10/27/09 09:14 PM | AP

What's Your Reaction?
Afghanistan

BRUSSELS — There are already more than 100,000 international troops in Afghanistan working with 200,000 Afghan security forces and police. It adds up to a 12-1 numerical advantage over Taliban rebels, but it hasn't led to anything close to victory.

Now, the top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan is asking for tens of thousands more troops to stem the escalating insurgency, raising the question of how many more troops it would take to succeed.

The commander, Gen. Stanley McChrystal, says the extra forces are needed to implement a new strategy that focuses on protecting civilians and depriving the militants of popular support in a country where tribal militias may be Taliban today and farmers tomorrow.

The White House said Tuesday that President Barack Obama has nearly finished gathering information and advice on how to proceed in Afghanistan, where bombings killed eight more American troops. With October now the deadliest month for U.S. forces in the war, many experts question the need for more troops.

"The U.S. and its allies already have ample numbers and firepower to annihilate the Taliban, if only the Taliban would cooperate by standing still and allowing us to bomb them to smithereens," said Andrew Bacevich, a professor of international relations and history at Boston University, and one-time platoon leader in Vietnam.

"But the insurgents are conducting the war in ways that do not play to (allied) strengths."

The Taliban rebels are estimated to number no more than 25,000. Ljubomir Stojadinovic, a military analyst and guerrilla warfare expert from Serbia, said that although McChrystal's reinforcements would lift the ratio to 20-1 or more, they would prove counterproductive.

"It's impossible to regain the initiative by introducing more foreign forces, which will only breed more resentment and more recruits for the enemy," he said. "The Soviets tried the exact same thing in Afghanistan in the 1980s with disastrous results."

Story continues below
advertisement

McChrystal's defenders say the U.S. has learned from Soviets' mistakes. At his instruction, NATO troops are increasingly abandoning heavy-handed tactics.

"In the end this (conflict) cannot be solved by military means alone, and in that sense a precise figure of Taliban fighters is not the point," said NATO spokesman James Appathurai.

The U.S. says it's already adjusting its strategy to shift the focus from hunting down and killing Taliban fighters to protecting civilians – in some cases allowing insurgent units to remain untouched if they are not deemed an imminent threat.

McChrystal has also insisted that ground commanders use airpower only as a last resort and when they are absolutely sure civilians are not at risk. As a career Special Forces officer, McChrystal is likely to use small maneuverable units rather than large, heavily armed formations.

Also, experts say guerrilla numbers are not the most important factor in a counterinsurgency campaign. Instead, the number of U.S. troops depends on more complex calculations, including the size and location of the population, and the extent of the training effort for the Afghan security forces.

Appathurai said the goals of the Afghanistan strategy are key to determining how many forces are required. The goal is to have enough troops in populated areas to protect the citizenry and to provide the forces needed to train the Afghans.

In addition, while there may be as many as 25,000 Taliban, it is not a monolithic group like an army, with a clear chain of command that has to be confronted soldier for soldier. Instead, it is a scattered and diverse mix of insurgents, some more ideologically motivated than others.

There are currently about 104,000 international troops in Afghanistan, including about 68,000 Americans. Afghan security forces consist of 94,000 troops supported by a similar number of police, bringing the total Allied force to close to 300,000 members.

The 12-1 ratio may be misleading because two-thirds of the Allied force is made up of Afghans, who lack the training and experience. The Taliban usually fight in small, cohesive units made up of friends and fellow clansmen. A more meaningful ratio, then, might be 4-1 or 5-1.

Historically in guerrilla wars, security forces have usually had at least a 3-1 advantage.

At the height of the U.S. ground involvement in South Vietnam in 1968, the 1.2 million American troops and their allies outnumbered the Communist guerrillas by about 4-1. French forces in the 1945-54 Indochina war numbered about 400,000 men, only a slight numerical advantage against the rebels.

In a more recent campaign, Russia's Chechen war in 1999-2000, Russian troops held a 4-1 advantage over the insurgents.

Publicly, NATO and U.S. officials have been tightlipped about Taliban strength, arguing the guerrillas, split into a number of semiautonomous factions, regularly slip in and out of Afghanistan from Pakistan – making numbers a matter of guesswork.

But several officers at NATO headquarters in Brussels say the alliance does have reasonably accurate estimates of the number of enemy combatants its troops are facing in Afghanistan.

"The internal figure used for planning purposes is 20,000 fighters, with several more thousand auxiliaries – mainly members of tribal militias, clans, and semi-criminal gangs," said a senior officer based at NATO headquarters in Brussels. He asked not to be identified under standing regulations.

Another senior official – a representative of a non-NATO nation based at alliance headquarters – gave a similar number.

This official added that enemy numbers varied widely over time, depending on the season and other factors. "When the poppy is good, they stay home. When the poppy is bad, they take up guns," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Recent U.S. government estimates have also put the number of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan at about 25,000.

Sometimes remaining small gives guerrillas certain advantages. British forces in Northern Ireland found it relatively easy to monitor and penetrate the Irish Republican Army when its ranks were swollen in the 1970s, but had a tougher time once the IRA slashed staff and regrouped into secretive four-person units.

Some analysts suggest that a NATO force much larger than the one under consideration would be needed to subdue the Taliban.

"The ratio of friendly to enemy forces would be a crucial aspect only if you could actually get at the enemy. But with an enemy that doesn't wear uniforms and hides among the population, that's very hard to do," said retired Army Col. Peter Mansoor, who helped oversee the "surge" of U.S. forces into Iraq in 2007-2008.

"The crucial aspect in this case is the ratio of security force to population – this is much more relevant," he said. "This would require one security person to every 50 people. In a country of about 32 million, this means about 600,000 security personnel would be needed to clamp it down."

___

Associated Press writers Lolita C. Baldor in Washington and Shawn Pogatchnik in Dublin, Ireland, contributed to this report.

BRUSSELS — There are already more than 100,000 international troops in Afghanistan working with 200,000 Afghan security forces and police. It adds up to a 12-1 numerical advantage over Taliban r...
BRUSSELS — There are already more than 100,000 international troops in Afghanistan working with 200,000 Afghan security forces and police. It adds up to a 12-1 numerical advantage over Taliban r...
Report Corrections
 
Comments
4181
Pending Comments
0
iPhone App Promo
Post Comment

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next › Last » (62 pages total)
photo

I have experienced guerrilla warfare and you have no idea who is on your side and whether the ones supporting you yesterday are going to support you today or tomorrow.

They don't wear uniforms and generally don't like you being there. In places like Afghanistan they sell their loyalties to the highest bidder as a matter of "normal" day-to-day life so you are just another resource for them.

So to use the 12-1 ratio is very misleading.

Tackling a guerrilla style war with conventional tactics will not work and we will suffer more and more losses. I am sure they have learned this and suspect that a lot of the discussion going on now is about revising the deployment strategies.

I doubt if they are going to suddenly announce that 20,000 or 30,000 or 40,000 are about to head out. It would not surprise me to learn that x,000 have been moved in and events are under way.

"Shock and awe" will not work there and I believe they are being a little more strategic and tactical in how they handle this important decision.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 10/29/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 318 fans permalink
photo

OT:

B00gieman, Donald Rumsfeld, once he was appointed to head of the DoD, sent for P|n0chet to be arrested.

E'at them apples, leftoids.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:37 AM on 10/29/2009

I really find it funny that the pro-war supporters here walk around like they understand Afghanistan better than the anti-war supporters.

They probably can't even name the militant group the Taliban originally came from. Oh no, that would be too factual.

Go back to your tea parties with Elizabeth Hasslebeck and palin.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:14 AM on 10/29/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 318 fans permalink
photo

A little Hasselbeck in Afghanistan wouldn't be a bad thing.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 AM on 10/29/2009
photo

Austintatious part 1 of 2

Sorry to post this in the main but a lot of us tend forget to reply back at comments( especially me when I was away from my pc watching BSG the plan) and when I get someone who definitely doesn't understand a post and comment I feel I need to make sure they know they're wrong.

I never said that "the public's duty to blindly follow the policies of their elected officials, however ill advised." I was merely pointing out the frustration in that no matter how much the public cries ENOUGH, Washington makes excuses and ignores us!

The American public is impotent in this issue, I know hard pill to swallow but true. During the Vietnam era people fought for years to try and end it they rallied, protested, college students going to jail; (I know I'm pissing off a lot of hippies, but even their efforts did little to end NAM) If you look at an American campus today, all you find is apathy, I don't think they even are aware that there's a war taking place(I guess it was all the pot in the 60s' that made people protest)

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 10/29/2009
photo

Highly recommended interview on whether or not the continuation of this war_ is beneficial to the USA_ and the Afghans_.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/28/a_woman_among_warlords_afghan_democracy

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:12 AM on 10/29/2009
- flossophy I'm a Fan of flossophy 318 fans permalink
photo

Check out the debate on Intelligence Squared from NPR.

Google it.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:44 AM on 10/29/2009
- mac33z I'm a Fan of mac33z 11 fans permalink

The strategies can be analyzed unendingly, however the bottom line is, it’s a “war for profit.”
Hook up the “Military Industrial Complex,” with their “special interest” cronies, whose main interests are in the oil, and you’ve got the underlying cause.
This crap could go on forever, because someone or thing, is continually profiting. No hurry to end anything, just keep raking in the money, and if you crush Afghanistan, which is highly unlikely, the special interests can steal the resources.
In the meantime China’s loving America’s involvement, cause they get to cut deals with the Afghans, and America can deplete it’s capital, keeping the whacko’s from attacking China, as it reaps enormous profits, from their contracts.
Nice job America.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 PM on 10/28/2009

I'll say it one more time: tell the survivors of the Battle of Camp Keating that 12:1 is overkill as described by HuffPost. I'd bet they'd call BS on that one.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:20 PM on 10/28/2009
- unch I'm a Fan of unch 16 fans permalink

this is shocking, it must be the wrong war then, besides poor leaders; time to come home.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:16 PM on 10/28/2009
photo

So if Obama increases the number of troops, waiting so long....what did he accomplish?

BTW, I believe that is what is going to happen.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 PM on 10/28/2009
photo

12:1 seems a bit slim to me....what was the ratio in Iraq?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:02 PM on 10/28/2009
photo

needs to be 12-0

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 10/29/2009

A recent report said that only 1 out of 10 insurgents in Afghanistan are Taliban. The rest are just relatives of those killed by American troops. So the 12-1 figure is probably very exaggerated. The fact is that probably most Afghanis want the American occupation forces out of their country. They smile when the troops say hello with their rifles pointing at them, but naturally do not support them killing their friends and family members.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:37 PM on 10/28/2009
- Ping I'm a Fan of Ping 63 fans permalink

That "recent report" is just pure propaganda.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 PM on 10/28/2009
- StillAmused I'm a Fan of StillAmused 251 fans permalink

Heaven knows, you must have put yourself at great personal risk to tour the area of conflict, interviewing thousands of Afghans to put the lie to this specious report.

Or is it more like, "'Cause I say so"?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 10/28/2009
- satanlite I'm a Fan of satanlite 93 fans permalink
photo

The humanzee Bush destroyed any chance of winning when he used the word "crusade". It's widely regarded in the ME that the Americans are there to destroy Islam, and it has become a holy war. Lil' w did it. He created a situation that has no possible good ending for the US. He was completely incompetant. We've propped up drug dealers in charge who lie to us and laugh behind our backs and lil' w put them there. Blaming any kind of failure on the Obama adminstration is a ploy to minimize the massive, monumental failure of the Bush administration. YOu nu tbal l righties will try it but no intelligent human being will believe it.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:33 PM on 10/28/2009
- StillAmused I'm a Fan of StillAmused 251 fans permalink

"Humanzee"

Priceless!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:12 PM on 10/28/2009
- JavaManiac I'm a Fan of JavaManiac 38 fans permalink
photo

what are we fighting for in Afghanistan exactly? Are we fighting the Taliban or Al Qaeda? Are we fighting terrorism against the US or the Afghani people?

I think we the Us citizens deserve answers about exactly who is where in the globe and what our US strategy is for each on the war on terror?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 PM on 10/28/2009
- satanlite I'm a Fan of satanlite 93 fans permalink
photo

The thing yoiu should be asking is now whoring himself as a motivational speaker while his tribe of subhumans dance to "surfing usa" and party it up.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 PM on 10/28/2009
- Chazmania I'm a Fan of Chazmania 59 fans permalink
photo

we do not get ANSWERS we get convoluted patriotic hogwash to distract from whatever strategic or financial manipulation is actually going on!

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 PM on 10/28/2009
- cef911f1 I'm a Fan of cef911f1 13 fans permalink
photo

A 12 to 1 advantage. Doesn't sound like we need more troops but new management.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 PM on 10/28/2009
photo

Serious? Please explain your opinion...

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 PM on 10/28/2009
- cef911f1 I'm a Fan of cef911f1 13 fans permalink
photo

Yes, serious. If we can't defeat the insurgents with a 12 to 1 then I think we need new leadership in the theater. That's a significant advantage coupled with the the advantage in technology we enjoy.

This conflict has been mis-managed from the get go starting with no real defined objectives.
It started out as a mission against al Qaida and bin Ladin. According to recent reports, there are few al Qaida members left in Afghanistan and bin Ladin is now thought to be in Pakistan. Doesn't seem to me that there is even a reason to be there.

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:00 AM on 10/29/2009

I don't understand what the strategy even is? Give the rebels more targets to shoot at?

Afghan warfare has always been "long, annoying and painful." They're not preoccupied with numbers of US casualties the way the Iraqis have been and Afghans normally wish to live to fight another day.

By increasing troops, you just make it worse for yourself and better for them. The Afghans will stay in the mountains, the villages, their masjids. Plant a bomb, kill a few soldiers and wait patiently until the heat dies down. Then do the same thing over and over again.

Perhaps the US can throw the Nobel peace prize at them?

    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:23 PM on 10/28/2009
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next › Last » (62 pages total)

 You must be logged in to comment. Log in  or connect with 

Connect