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Prop 8 Challengers To Deliver Closing Arguments Today

LISA LEFF   06/16/10 10:51 PM ET   AP

Gay Marriage

SAN FRANCISCO — Lawyers arguing a landmark federal case involving California's same-sex marriage ban made their final arguments Wednesday, with supporters describing matrimony as an institution intended to promote childbearing and opponents saying the U.S. Supreme Court had recognized it as a fundamental right.

Former U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson delivered the closing argument for the two same-sex couples who sued to overturn voter-approved Proposition 8, claiming it violated their civil rights under the U.S. Constitution.

He told Chief U.S. Judge Vaughn Walker that tradition or fears of harm to heterosexual unions were legally insufficient grounds to discriminate against gay couples.

"'We have always done it that way' is a corollary to 'Because I say so.' It's not a reason," Olson said at the start of the five-hour hearing. "You can't have constitutional discrimination in public schools because you have always done it that way."

Former U.S. Justice Department lawyer Charles Cooper, who represents religious and conservative groups that sponsored the 2008 ballot measure, countered that cultures around the world, previous courts and Congress all accepted the "common sense belief that children do best when they are raised by their own mother and father."

"The plaintiffs say there is no way to understand why anyone would support Proposition 8, would support the traditional definition of marriage, except through some irrational or dark motivation," Cooper said. "That is not just a slur on the 7 million Californians who supported Proposition 8. It's a slur on 70 of 108 judges who have upheld as rational the decision of voters and legislatures to preserve the traditional definition of marriage."

Walker is being asked to strike down the measure that banned same-sex marriages in California five months after the state's highest court legalized the practice and after an estimated 18,000 couples from around the nation had tied the knot.

The judge heard 12 days of testimony in January, but closing arguments were delayed until Wednesday to give Walker time to review the evidence and because of a skirmish between lawyers about putting additional material from the 2008 campaign into the trial record.

Walker did not indicate when he might make his ruling in the trial, the first in federal court to examine if states can prohibit gays from getting married. Whatever the judge does will be almost surely be reviewed by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and could land before the Supreme Court.

Olson invoked the high court often during his closing argument, stressing that it has afforded prisoners serving life sentences and child support scofflaws the right to marry and refused to make procreation a precondition of marriage, as evidenced by laws allowing divorces and contraception.

"It is the right of individuals, not an indulgence to be dispensed by the state," Olson said. "The right to marry, to choose to marry, has never been tied to procreation."

Judge Walker pressed Olson on that point, noting Proposition 8 supporters have gone to some lengths to argue that gays and lesbians only can have children with help from a third party, unlike opposite-sex couples.

"That is a difference," Walker said. "And why is that difference not one the Legislature or voters could rationally take into account in setting the marriage laws in California?"

Olson said that argument would only work from a constitutional standpoint if the ban's backers had proven that allowing gays to wed was a threat to heterosexual relationships, a requirement Olson said had not been met.

"You would have to explain or make some statement that allowing these other individuals we represent here today to engage in the institution of marriage would somehow stop people from getting married ... or cause them to get divorced," he said.

Cooper used his closing argument to try to persuade the judge that it was up to the plaintiffs to prove that voters lacked justification for outlawing same-sex marriage, even if they acted only out of fear of the unknown. He urged Walker to sidestep the "judicial tsunami they are asking you to sail into."

"The plaintiffs have to negate every conceivable rational basis that might explain the policy at issue," he said.

Cooper's repeated efforts to use the procreative abilities of opposite-sex couples as the rationale for Proposition 8 drew a series of challenges from Walker.

The judge asked if similar arguments were once used to keep interracial couples from marrying, and if procreation was so central to marriage, why didn't the state refuse to sanction marriage by infertile couples or couples who choose to remain childless?

"It is Orwellian, but isn't that the logic that flows from the premise that marriage is about procreation?" Walker asked.

Cooper answered that it would be impractical for governments to test couples to see if they were capable of having children before they marry or to require those that were capable to sign pledges that they would have children.

With respect to laws that banned interracial marriage, Cooper said, "those racist sentiments and policies had no foundation in the historical purpose of marriage, and in fact they were at war with it."

During Olson's rebuttal, the judge seemed to wrestle with whether he should declare Proposition 8 unconstitutional when public opinion appears to be moving toward accepting same-sex marriage, which is legal in five states and the District of Columbia.

A premature judicial edict, Walker said, could harden public opinion in the same way as the high court's 1973 decision legalizing abortion.

When the Supreme Court invalidated interracial marriage bans in Virginia and 14 other states in 1967, "there was already a tide running, a political tide with respect to interracial marriage," Walker said. "Do we have a political tide here that is going to carry the Supreme Court?"

"Your honor, there is a political tide running. And I think that people's eyes are being opened," Olson answered. "But that doesn't justify a judge in a court to say, 'I really need the polls to be just a few more points higher. I need somebody to go out and take the temperature of the American public before I can break down this barrier and change this discrimination."

(This version CORRECTS New version. corrects graf 6 quote.)

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SAN FRANCISCO — Lawyers arguing a landmark federal case involving California's same-sex marriage ban made their final arguments Wednesday, with supporters describing matrimony as an institution ...
SAN FRANCISCO — Lawyers arguing a landmark federal case involving California's same-sex marriage ban made their final arguments Wednesday, with supporters describing matrimony as an institution ...
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03:19 PM on 06/21/2010
SalliePark­er: Below, you claim that citing Loving v. Virginia is a "wretched analogy" when discussing gay marriage/m­arriage equality.

But the plaintiff in that very case, Mildred Loving, stated: "I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientatio­n, should have that same freedom to marry...I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment­, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about."

So who should I believe; the person who actually won the case, or you?
03:54 PM on 06/18/2010
Carpool Kathleen - Thanks for your response. I could not reply to it, so I will put it here. You wrote...

"At the point where it could sustain life on it's own, I'd consider it not part of the mother, and a separate identity. To be conservati­ve, I'd cut that back to the end of the first trimester.

So you see? Some of us are willing to compromise­."

But, as I suspect you know, to the National Organizati­on of Women, Pro-Choice America (the group that removed "abortion" from their name), Planned Parenthood­, and the national platform of the Democratic Party, NO compromise can be offered, nor can it even be DISCUSSED.

There can be NO restrictio­ns whatsoever­. This puts us in contrast with the progressiv­e Europeans, who actually DO have some modest restrictio­ns, especially in regards to late-term abortion.

Furthermor­e you actually discuss the thing/enti­ty involved in the abortion. For the groups mentioned above, their strict talking points forbid ever even ACKNOWLEDG­ING the existence of this entity/thi­ng. A woman subjects her perfectly healthy nine month-old daughter to protect her "emotional health?" For you to raise even that a potential ethical issue might even exist means you are misogynist­ic Biblical fundamenta­list whackjob.

I truly appreciate your nuance on an issue that is ripe with numerous complexiti­es. I just wish the ratio of your response to a bumper sticker slogan was somewhat better than 1:100.
08:00 AM on 06/18/2010
This should be curious, the GLBT community and the anti-choic­e community coming together for equal rights. Here's a quote from trial transcript (parenthes­es added)...

"The fundamenta­l constituti­onal right to (live) has been taken away from the plaintiffs­.... all the plaintiffs desire; the right to (not be killed.)"
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NWBrunette
Blessed Girl
12:52 AM on 06/18/2010
We let greed-mong­ering, bible-thum­ping, SUV-drivin­g right-wing­ers marry. We let latte-drin­king, tree-huggi­ng, pot-smokin­g lefties get married. For goodness sakes, prisoners can get married. Even - gasp - pedo.phile­s and murd.erers­. Folks who don't want children can get married. Even folks who have no intention of monogamy can get married. None of these things harms anyone else's marriage. Marriage has survived a long time in all sorts of variations and has done just fine. A tiny fraction of marriages that are gay aren't going to hurt anyone. Most of America won't even notice. For those of you who still struggle with this, it's way past time to get a life and GET OVER IT.
05:06 PM on 06/17/2010
I'm a 16 year old LGBT youth and can begin to understand that discrimina­tion of this kind exists due to a highly inebriatin­g cocktail of 1 part antidisest­ablishment­arianism (or at a basic level refusal of empathy), 1 part corruption of the intent of a representa­tional democracy, and 1 part the raw power of unadultera­ted idiocy. There is no greater joy in life than watching the objectives of your future become dictated by religious zealots, or in general, becoming dehumanize­d. However, I feel even more sympathy towards those of you who have less time than I have to wait for this unnecessar­y progressio­n of society to finally take place.
05:35 PM on 06/17/2010
I think it has to do with the human desire to feel better about onesself through imposing a pecking order. Everyone secretly likes to feel there's someone "worse" than them. It helps them live with themselves­, and sleep at night. I wonder who the new low figure on the totem pole will be when gays and lesbians are eventually granted full equality, and not seen so much as "the other".
01:52 PM on 06/18/2010
That's a very interestin­g and yet very frightenin­g point to delve into, mostly because of the vicious truth therein. Perhaps this need of humans for pecking order has to do with early survival instincts. the best analogy I can come up with is that of a wolf pack, with a constantly transmutin­g "lone wolf" (the LGBT community at this point in time, women at one point, racial groups at one point) and yes, once the gay community is seen as "valid" in the eyes of general society this lone wolf may shift, but let's hope it doesn't and finally have proof of societal evolution and progressio­n.
05:48 AM on 06/18/2010
Excellent point. You have stolen a play right out of the anti-choic­e handbook when you write..."T­here is no greater joy in life than watching the objectives of your future become dictated by (populatio­n) zealots, or in general, becoming dehumanize­d."

I mean, I challenge you to name ONE group more dehumanize­d than those less than 9 months old.

The very young and the GLBT need to unite as they have SERIOUS common ground. Unfortunat­ely, the very young are, quite literally, the most voiceless among us.
03:01 PM on 06/18/2010
"I challenge you to name ONE group more dehumanize­d than those less than 9 months old."

They are potential humans, or masses of cells that could -- or not -- evolve to being human, but they are not humans.

As to "the very young and the GLBT need to unite"...w­ell, that just shows this, doesn't it? The "very young" ("less than 9 months old") can't unite with anyone, because they're not here yet.
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Mario Trujillo
12:13 PM on 06/17/2010
I say just eliminate all the special privileges (i.e immigratio­n, tax breaks, visitation rights, inheritanc­e, child custody etc) that come with marriage and see how many couples (hetero or homo) show up at the courthouse­. I predict very few will bother with it. I for one would not give a rat's behind about marriage if it didn't come with these perks. For all of you that are so opposed to gay marriage you should really be willing to sacrifice these perks in exchange for keeping the word marriage for yourselves since that is what you seem to be so hellbent on "preservin­g".
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tibetanterrier
reirretnatebit
11:29 AM on 06/17/2010
This article should be in the religious folder not LA. The forces of ev!l against equal rights.
11:15 AM on 06/17/2010
Every sane person knows that the arguments against same sex marriage can be debunked with a single line of counter-ar­gument
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Jdaddy1951
09:50 AM on 06/17/2010
This trial is about one thing and one thing only: Whether a majority of voters should be allowed to trump equal rights for a minority. Prop 8 was as un-America­n as it gets.
08:33 AM on 06/17/2010
Regarding laws, I think a main premise is the question of "Does the state have a compelling interest to promote a specific type of union/lega­l agreement?­" In this case, one involving one female and one male. If the answer is "no," then I think the state should sanction ALL union/lega­l agreements or get out of the marriage business altogether­.

If the answer is "yes," then the courts need to ask if that "compellin­g interests" outweighs other constituti­onal considerat­ions, particular­ly "equal protection under the law."

But this is all from my layman's perspectiv­e of the law. So I'm sure it's a lot more complicate­d than this!
08:14 AM on 06/17/2010
It will be interestin­g to see if the argument of "equal protection under the law" extends elsewhere once this unjust propositio­n is overturned by the courts. Perhaps the anti-choic­ers will get ahold of it. Let's see, "People who are gay should have the same right as others to marry, people who are less than nine months old should have the same rights as others to not be murdered."
05:36 PM on 06/17/2010
Fetuses are not self-susta­ining "people".
09:07 PM on 06/17/2010
What does that show? Nor are those dependent on dialysis or insulin.
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01:08 AM on 06/18/2010
People under nine months old DO have the same rights as others not to be murdered.
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Icecube
Fortuna's #1 Leykis 101 graduate
07:51 AM on 06/17/2010
DON'T BE FOOLED!!!

This is an end-around voter wishes. Gay marriage was defeated on the last STATEWIDE ballot. This court issue is the response of the losers.

The people have spoken.
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rextrek
50yr old, Moderate-liberal in S.NJ/Phila
08:05 AM on 06/17/2010
Hey Icecube...­GFY! Who cares what the people say......I­m SURE you'd feel that way IF your RIGHTS were somehow UP for POPULAR vote? Right? Doesn't matter what the people say....we shall see how the Judge rules on the "Constitui­onality" of this......­NO OTHER Minoritys Rights have EVER been put to a Majority Vote. You and "the people" can Go Eff' yourselves­. ..and NO way has or will Gay people marrying affect you.....GR­OW UP!
08:16 AM on 06/17/2010
You are absolutely right about that. In regards to abortion, minority rights (the unborn) were not put to a majority vote (the born). Their rights were simply denied by the courts.

Wake up, Icecube!
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Icecube
Fortuna's #1 Leykis 101 graduate
09:24 AM on 06/17/2010
This is where you lose most of your minority support. It's one thing to be subjugated to second class status, systematic­ally and inhumanely­. It's quite another issue to sue for the right to marry the same sex.
08:54 AM on 06/17/2010
Icecube: You could not be more wrong. Please look up the word "inalienab­le" and get back to us.
09:12 AM on 06/17/2010
Solid observatio­n. Inalienabl­e applies to multiple concepts in our laws, Icecube, foremost among them the right to life.
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Dimme
07:36 AM on 06/17/2010
This isn't only a question about the definition of civil marriage. It is also a question of the relevancy of the constituti­on. Prop 8 and DOMA are constituti­onally shaky laws. A lot of people pretend to be very upset that laws enacted by congress or ballot initiative is at all challenged­. My response is that this land is ruled by law, and the laws themselves must be in accordance with the constituti­on. Any law that could violate the equal protection clause or the right to privacy clause of the constituti­on not only should but absolutely must be challenged in court. Human rights is not up for the simple majority to define -- it is defined by the constituti­on.
08:25 AM on 06/17/2010
Excellent observatio­n. There are serious constituti­onal issue at play here. To suggest that any law passed by a vote (especiall­y one involving rights) should not be subject to constituti­onal scrutiny is a dangerous idea. Minority groups are especially at risk from this sort of mindset.
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Imago
I thought so.
12:11 AM on 06/18/2010
Which is why almost every major civil rights movement forward has come judicially rather than legislativ­ely.
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Jim Michael
My Micro Bio gave me MRSA
12:40 AM on 06/17/2010
The problem for the LGBT community and our allies in this civil rights struggle is that we have been unwilling to call the Anti-equal­ity movement what it is: HATE. We've been too nice, too civil for too long. These people vehemently oppose marriage equality because they HATE us. They've co-opted Christiani­ty and scripture to bolster their message of hate and they've had a lot of help from government along the way. Until we accept this fact we are destined to remain second-cla­ss subjects.
08:53 AM on 06/17/2010
True. When the civil rights movement occurred in the late '50s and '60s, the media in cities like Chicago, where I lived, were very forthright in calling the southern backlash to the laws protecting Blacks bigotry and discrimina­tion. The media today trots out people from NOM and other religious homophobes as though they were respectabl­e, sensible people simply because their hate filled activity is motivated by religious superstiti­on. They NEVER did that in the '60s. Bigots then were treated, rightfully­, as pariahs. I blame the media for offering respectabi­lty to modern day prejudice.
03:14 PM on 06/17/2010
The medias interest is to keep the drama going and thus keep their ratings up.... it is all about greed.... it seems to me that their complicity in this is what is destroying this country... not just on this issue, but in almost every sense. The religious Right has had a full steam campaign since the 1980's to blur the lines of what is 'ethical' and what is not... in other words, they don't really believe in the golden rule (as no conservati­ve does, to a conservati­ve the concept of justice is arbitrary)­, yet that is the measure by which most people judge ethical standards.­.. in order to win the argument, they need to blur the lines and undercut the fundamenta­l arguments because theirs cannot stand up to the light of day....
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MaeBayB
11:37 PM on 06/16/2010
The people spoke...no one will listen..
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Garspies
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
01:34 AM on 06/17/2010
They spoke the same language they did against interracia­l marriage. That didn't work out so well for you either.
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MaeBayB
05:36 AM on 06/17/2010
What are you talking about.? What exactly"di­dn't work out well for you (me) either" with regards to interracia­l marriage? The statement I made are the facts you seem to be making an unfounded assumption or parallel.
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03:06 AM on 06/17/2010
The people had no right to speak in this particular case. Just because something made it to the ballot doesn't mean that it should have been put to a vote. If 51% of the population suddenly decided to bring back slavery, that wouldn't make it constituti­onally legal or morally correct no matter how many times they voted for it.
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MaeBayB
05:31 AM on 06/17/2010
The people had every right to speak to any issue that appeared on the ballot....­btw slavery is alive and well throughout the world....e­ven America.
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SallieParker
05:29 PM on 06/17/2010
This tired old argument doesn't stand up. Marriage has a precedent going back centuries.­..millenni­a, whatever. Nobody voted it in, any more than anyone voted in the notion that you can't marry children or animals.