Mormons Divided On LDS Apostle's Speech On Gays

By Peggy Fletcher Stack / The Salt Lake Tribune
Religion News Service

SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) Scores of Mormons say they felt confused and bruised after Apostle Boyd K. Packer unequivocally condemned same-sex marriage and insisted that gays can change their attractions with enough faith.

It wasn't the substance of Packer's speech on Sunday (Oct. 3), and no one expected the senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to revise the church's stance.

What bothered many, they say, was the style of his presentation that left them feeling Packer's views were at odds with the more nuanced and compassionate recent statements by other leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Packer's words "are an anomaly in the parade of statements coming out of the (LDS) church," said Carol Lynn Pearson, a Mormon writer in northern California who has worked to make gays feel welcome in the Mormon church.

The speech "hurt my heart," she said in a phone interview, "because I receive all the time e-mails from young gay Mormons who feel so diminished and defeated."

Last month, Elder Marlin Jensen, a member of the church's First Quorum of Seventy, met with church members in California who were upset by the church's vocal support of Proposition 8, which ended same-sex marriage in the state.

While Jensen said traditional marriage was a "bedrock of our doctrine and would not change," he joined others in crying when they shared stories of alienation from the church over the gay issue.

"I want you to know that as a result of being with you this morning, my aversion to homophobia has grown," Jensen said. "I know that many very good people have been deeply hurt."

LDS spokesman Scott Trotter emphasized that Packer's speech was consistent with the church's longtime position.

"The church's doctrine on the importance of marriage and family and its implications for same-gender marriage are very clear," Trotter said in a statement, "and are based on principles of truth, respect and love for all of God's children."

Moreover, he said, "We have continually emphasized that there is no room in this discussion for hatred or mistreatment of anyone."

For Mormons like editor and writer Jana Riess of Cincinnati, "It is painful to be so at odds with my church on this issue."

In her Beliefnet column Flunking Sainthood, Riess asks: "If the goal is to become like Jesus, why, then, do we fixate so much of our attention on condemning homosexuality, a subject that Christ did not address a single time in his earthly ministry?"

Comments

[mggwa]

12:25 PM on 12/05/2010

"Mormons divided on..."

Fill in the blank.

I have never found anything that unites all Mormons everywhere. Not one single thing. So, this isn't "news".

[laketahoeblue]

07:05 PM on 11/22/2010

Unfortunately, the Mormon church fails to see its hypocrisy and inconsistency in its position regarding gays. It condemns hatred and mistreatment of gays, yet actively endorsed California's Prop 8, which made same-sex marriages illegal. Don't they understand denying gays a basic civil right is an expression of hatred and hostility? I acknowledge the church's right to establish whatever policies it deems fit over its own members. But Prop 8 established a law for every resident of the state, Mormon or not. Denying non-Mormons the right to legally marry can be taken as nothing less than an expression of hatred and civil mistreatment toward gays, the church's claims to the contrary notwithstanding. Mormons should keep such policy-making within the church and not work to deny the civil rights of non-Mormons. That is a very hurtful and hateful thing to do.

[mggwa]

12:27 PM on 12/05/2010

"actively endorsed California­'s Prop 8, which made same-sex marriages illegal. Don't they understand denying gays a basic civil right is an expression of hatred and hostility?"

Obviously not. It is what YOU understand, but you are putting your own spin on it.

Same-sex unions are doomed to extinction; it can be argued that discouraging doomed lifestyles is an act of love and compassion, rather than hatred and hostility.

[billygore2000]

11:59 AM on 11/13/2010

Nuttier than Joseph Smith!

[Bellla]

03:45 PM on 10/23/2010

Sure traditional marrage is the bedrock of the church, that's why Brother Brigham had 22 wives! Tell us another one Boyd! And why do you still persecute and disfellowship Transgendered people in direct contravention of the words of your Jesus (in Mathew 19, vs 11+12) when science shows that many maybe most intersex conditions in humans are caused by endocrine disrupting agricultural chemicals! Again persecute the weak and innocent!

[mggwa]

12:30 PM on 12/05/2010

Those of us that recognize the impact of artificial or natural estrogens (a component of some pesticides) will feminize a male fetus if exposed between the 7th and 9th week of gestation, obtain *understanding* but it does not change the morality or wisdom of a large proportion of society engaging in a thing that is naturally DEselecting, in Darwinian terms.

Continuing to be denied a thing that has never existed (same sex marriage) is not "persecution" and is an insult to anyone who has a more legitimate gripe.

[JustinLMartin]

10:39 PM on 10/13/2010

I am a member of the LDS church. While I love church and I love the class I teach with my wife, I have decided to boycott church until something is done. I disagree 100% with Packer. The Bible teaches tolerance, so why can't church members be tolerant of gays? Why can't we just let same-sex couple be happy? Why do we have to force our beliefs on them? This needs to be resolved.

[David VeLar]

11:54 PM on 10/14/2010

Why not just be Christian without the Mormon additions. You don't lose out spiritually. What is the extra part of Joseph Smith supposed to do for you spiritually that the things in the Bible alone cannot?

I've studied the thing so much and talked to so many Mormons about it. It just makes no sense to me. Just step back for a moment and imagine you are Christian (without the Mormon stuff) and look past those initial feelings you might have imagining it. Beyond those feelings is the realization that there is nothing to fear. God is still there, Jesus is still there, the truth is more clear.

Church members can't be tolerant of Gays because even though the BIBLE teaches tolerance, the Mormon doctrine does not... (well only where it copies from the Bible it does)

[Stephanie Hileman]

12:21 PM on 10/17/2010

Well said, David. The truth is, when you take away the 3 hours of church each week, family home evening, mutual, the 10+ hours of volunteer work for the church each week (a calling), seminary before school and the occasional after-church fireside, there isn't much of a difference between the Mormon church and any other Christian faith. The Book of Mormon is, in my view, a fairly superfluous and redundant imitation of the Bible as well as Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews (1823). Not an essential for a compassionate or tolerant mindset. In view of this controversy, it almost would seem to be a deterrant to such perspectives.

[Natali McKee]

10:25 AM on 10/18/2010

Read this:
http://gaymormonguy.blogspot.com/2010/10/president-packers-talk-from-gay-mormon.html#comment-form

[Bob Kellerman]

03:52 AM on 10/20/2010

OH, FOR CHRISSAKES

"I KNOW ACTING ON MY TEMPTATIONS IS WRONG" --- you think anyone wants to believe that the blog is not phony, except you?

Acting on YOUR temptations to defend the indefensible and morally reprobate position of your horrid church is YOUR sin

[curiousdwk]

08:14 PM on 10/13/2010

Why do so many religious leaders feel justified in their bigotry?

[Bob Kellerman]

08:32 PM on 10/13/2010

They delude themselves (or just others) that it's God's Will and not hatred.
They just need to keep those ducks in a row, untempted by YOUR sins, to keep the money and power coming in.

[mggwa]

12:42 PM on 12/05/2010

"Why do so many religious leaders feel justified in their bigotry? "

Wrong question. Clearly, they do not feel bigoted.

[Bob Kellerman]

05:18 PM on 10/13/2010

Packer's remarks encourage bullying of Gay kids

Here is a link to a Houston City Councilman -- talking about the deaths of several boys recently, and what it was like for him to be 13, bullied so much that he considered suicide as well.
"It gets better"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stefan-sirucek/texas-city-councilman-tel_b_761659.html

[Bob Kellerman]

07:05 PM on 10/13/2010

NPR report on the demonstration in SLC, the petition, and the church reaction:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130525707&ps=cprs

"Church spokesman Michael Otterson reiterated the Mormon doctrinal position.

"Any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman," he said. "However, that should never, ever be used as justification for unkindness."
Otterson went on to point out that the church has recently spoken in favor of protections for gays in jobs and housing.

Kristine Haglund, editor of the Boston-based publication Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, says Packer's statements do highlight a theological dilemma for many Mormons.
"That really is the heart of it for Mormons, I think — to try and figure out what it means that people should be born with this inclination that can't be mapped onto Mormon theology," she said.

FULL OTTERSON CHURCH STATEMENT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsR9HPhsjJ4

[Bob Kellerman]

04:16 AM on 10/14/2010

Later, I read the full discussion of policy on the mormon website --- Otterson is the sugar coater who speaks to the public.
THEY STILL WANT A U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT because they stick to the chesnut that there can only be ONE kind of marriage, thus Gay Marriage will pollute their marriage.

http://beta-newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/same-gender-attraction

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE STUPID ENOUGH to not understand that they are worried that mormons will "sin" when they see happy Gays, etc. (not the mormon version of Gay, which requires one to be "that celibate homo" to other church members.
One of the jerks lumps Gays in with his wheelchair-bound challenged daughter, among those who will just have to be sad they cannot marry.

THIS IS A COMPLETE PERVERSION OF GOD'S CREATIONS --- oh!, I forgot that any disagreement is politely allowed, but never listened to

[bigmacha]

04:49 PM on 10/13/2010

There is an interesting background to the Mormon campaign against marriage equality and it goes back to the way they approach "equality" in general, but especially among the races. The following link has some interesting quotes from the founder and leaders of the church. I refer you to the site since I cannot actually get a quote published:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/negro.htm

[mggwa]

12:52 PM on 12/05/2010

"Mormon campaign against marriage equality"

I am unaware of a Mormon campaign against marriage equality, but since I have no idea what you mean by "marriage equality" perhaps I am mistaken.

Mormons have three goals or missions: Preach the gospel, perfect the SAINTS, redeem the dead. People that are not members of the church don't need to be perfected right now and they aren't dead yet, but you might get preached to.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Three-fold_mission_of_the_Church

Many things Mormons are "for" and not much time ought to be wasted on the nearly infinite number of things that are "not for".

[bigmacha]

04:43 PM on 10/13/2010

In all fairness --

In June in 1978, President Spencer W. Kimball spoke with The Heavenly Father, who lives on the planet Kolob. Afterwards, an announcement was made -- without any doctrinal statement -- which only said the Lord had indicated that the time for change had come. Blacks could now become full participants in the church, if they are worthy."

[BookmanIIII]

07:15 PM on 10/13/2010

I was sitting in church the day of the 1978 announcement. Several members walked out of the building. Many members did not want Blacks to be brought into full membership. Now Mormons have the gay thing. My guess is that many of their missionaries are gay or lesbian. It should be interesting how they deal with this issue. Maybe the God from Kolob will once again whisper sweet nothings in the ears of church leaders.

[springsm]

04:12 PM on 10/14/2010

BYU figured that they could not be the big winners and/or competitive with out adding the talent of African Americans. And I think the church was being ridiculed for their backwards, prejudicial stance...and then again...they had to forward the business.

[David VeLar]

11:50 PM on 10/14/2010

I can't quite understand why people stay in that church. It's like they say they believe in Jesus and God, and then there's this extra and unnecessary thing about Joseph Smith. It's so annoying considering that every single Mormon thing that they invented and tried to pass off as originally Christian... every single one... whether it be the curse of cain, or blood atonement, or translating Egyptian... ALL have been disproven as non existent.

So what is the point? They were wrong then, they are wrong now.

[Natali McKee]

03:09 PM on 10/13/2010

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and their way of life! Do not mock mine because you do not agree. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I do not ask you to believe what I do, but I ask for respect for both of us to believe different things.

[Bob Kellerman]

03:54 PM on 10/13/2010

You can say that all you like -- and it is valid on the face of it.

BUT YOU GUYS NEED TO SHUT UP ABOUT CRITICISM UNTIL YOU MAKE AMENDS

For the horrendous intrusions into the lives of non-mormons --- your refusal to do that is why your church, and all of you, are being looked at very poorly

[Natali McKee]

04:10 PM on 10/13/2010

Boyd K Packers words were for the members of the church.

It is quite fine if I am looked at poorly, you are free to think that, although I think it is quite unjust since you no nothing about me.

[bigmacha]

04:22 PM on 10/13/2010

When your church respects others you too can demand respect.

Is is not true that your church is baptizing dead jews (and others) into the Mormon faith - not much respect there.

Is it not true that your church denied blacks entry into the church for many ears because church dogma considered black people inferior - that is not respect.

Is it not true that your church financed the prop 8 campaign in California to enforce your church's belief as to what constitutes "marriage" - that is not respect.

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Bob Kellerman]

04:59 PM on 10/13/2010

Them garments have a secret ingredient, boy --- TEFLON!!

Nothing sticks to these people

As Otterson says (paraphrase)
"We who were for so long persecuted should be the first to be sensitive to the persecution and differences of others"

I have tried to suggest that before, and they all just play victim in response

[thundermummy]

02:42 PM on 10/13/2010

Hey, they found archeological evidence of horse and chariots in pre-Columbian North America! Just kidding.

[Bob Kellerman]

08:34 PM on 10/13/2010

Those were Israelites --- see if they are Cadillac chariots, will ya?

[AZreb]

10:34 AM on 10/13/2010

Nope, nope, nope - can't be a good Mormon if you disagree with one of the heads of that religion.

[Minas]

12:00 AM on 10/13/2010

People need to understand one thing. What God does not accept will not be acceptable no matter how many people or how powerful they are that agrees with what he has deemed is wrong. The Bible doesn't even contain the full account of what Christ addressed on earth. One thing is for sure Jesus said I and the father are one. Those who have seen me have seen the father. He also said that Heaven and earth will pass away before one word of the bible would be changed. If you actually read the Bible there are many instances of homosexuality and Gods view on it. And in everyone he has deemed it a sin and he doesn't tolerate sin. Also Jesus told every sinner he talked with and helped to go and do not sin again.

[Bob Kellerman]

03:13 AM on 10/13/2010

Another "mormonistic" post from a new name, no fans.... Different person???? Same?

Anyone who believes books that passed through many hands and many translations remained EXACTLY as God or anyone else dictated them...... well, they might belief in Joseph Smith's clever scam of a church where the persecuted become saints in the afterlife.

NONE OF YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION OF HOW GOD GAVE YOU A PERSONAL REVELATION TO MIX INTO THE LIVES OF OTHERS
--- usually when that happens, it's the red guy with horns and a tail

[ccherc]

01:43 PM on 10/13/2010

no, not the same person.
why would someone come on here and express their "mormonistic" view?
no, not because some "missionary" department asked for it. you know if that was true there would be more than a handful of new users posting.
it's just a few people who want to express what they believe, the same reason that you are expressing your hate of their view.
normally i just ignore discussions like this, but when you see someone speaking offensively about your past prophet (lying about things they've heard about "Joe") or other doctrine (garments from a made-up planet), it's hard to ignore. that is what i consider a dirty fight, especially when those offensive points have nothing to do with the story being discussed.
but you're right, i didn't need to fight dirty too by pointing out your spelling error. i know it's just a typo, which is a normal occurrence for anyone, especially if you're reading and responding to hundreds of threads on this particular story. that's a lot of work.

[mggwa]

01:10 PM on 12/05/2010

"Another "mormonist­ic" post from a new name"

Yup. shouldn't be permitted, says you. HP can talk about Mormons all day long but no Mormons are supposed to contribute.

Well, if you want that sort of thing, go to DailyKOS.

[The crimson A]

09:29 AM on 10/13/2010

Few people outside of mormonism may know this, but Joseph Smith rewrote portions of the King James Bible. So Minas, if you're mormon, you need to clarify: One cannot change one word of the Bible, unless of course you're inspired to change said word of the Bible, is that what I'm hearing? And if you're not mormon, then you have stand by and embrace every word that comes out of the Bible, including the Old Testament and it's plethora of capricious bullying by the most unpleasant of identities, yes even Jehovah, the racist, misogynistic infanticidal, respecter of persons, petty controlfreak God of the Old Testament.
Homosexuals contribute greatly and are an asset to our society. Homophobic evangelical crybabies who go out of their way to see the rights of our tax-paying citizens curtailed based on bigoted thinking, well, this type of person is detrimental to our society, and quite frankly, immoral.

[Natuska]

12:53 PM on 10/13/2010

Most entertaining are all the Genesis verses after 26 in the "one true" translation of the KJV by Joseph Smith the JST. The old rascal put in a Prophecy that a future chap named Joseph, the son of another Joseph, would in time arise and be a great Prophet, revelator blah blah blah. Needless to say, no ancient source of genesis (of which there are many) contain anything after 50:26. What better way to change G-d's will by adding verses to the Bible!

[sensimilla]

01:21 PM on 10/12/2010

w..tf is an LDS APOSTLE? Just more bastardization of the message of christ and evidence of the egoism of religious leaders.

[Bob Kellerman]

02:52 PM on 10/12/2010

Check videos of the North Korean leader -- and the legions of marchers in his parade, while the populace starves. Closest thing to Packer, but HIS followers are living well, and afraid to mess with the "church" that made them prosperous, and will give them lovely thrones as saints in the afterlife.

Just like the Neocon Republicans, Packer knows that playing to the selfish interests of people works.

[bigmacha]

04:37 PM on 10/13/2010

Church of North Korea - you can get in, but you can't get out!

[Minas]

12:04 AM on 10/13/2010

I was wondering the same thing. I agree completely. According to the Bible the Apostles were hand picked by Jesus with the exception of Paul whom God picked. And Paul was the absolute last Apostle ever.

[bigmacha]

04:37 PM on 10/13/2010

Eeny, meeny, miney, moe - you're an apostle.

[liberal123]

01:07 PM on 10/12/2010

Packer's comments are not "...at odds with the more nuanced and compassionate recent statements by other leaders." His statements reflect the position of the Mormon church which is in the vanguard in the fight against gay rights - - from their massive funding of Prop 8 to the prohibition of gay kids in the boy scouts.
His comments are at odds with the PR campaign that the Mormons are waging to try to counteract the negative press that they've gotten from their Prop 8 support. But they deserve the opprobrium, because they oppose all gay rights.
It is sad that all the gay Mormon teenagers do not receive any acceptance or support from their communities and are sometimes driven to suicide.

[bigmacha]

04:38 PM on 10/13/2010

What exactly does "nuanced" mean?

[liberal123]

04:49 PM on 10/13/2010

Nuanced means carefully crafted to pretend that the mormons are not hateful to gays : (