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Don't Ask, Don't Tell: Marines Most Resistant To Openly Gay Troops

JULIE WATSON   11/27/10 03:44 AM ET   AP

Marines Dadt

OCEANSIDE, Calif. — They are the few, the proud and perhaps the military's biggest opponents of lifting the ban on openly gay troops.

Most of those serving in America's armed forces have no strong objections to repealing the "don't ask, don't tell" law, according to a Pentagon survey of 400,000 active duty and reservists that is scheduled for release Tuesday.

But the survey found resistance to repealing the ban strongest among the Marines, according to The Washington Post. It's an attitude apparently shared by their top leader, Commandant Gen. James Amos, who has said that the government should not lift the ban in wartime.

The Senate is supposed to consider repeal during its lame duck session in December, with many legislators favoring changing the law to allow gays to serve openly. A few staunchly oppose it, however, and both sides are expected to cite the survey in arguing whether to move forward with repeal.

The Corps is the youngest, smallest and arguably the most tight-knit of the enlisted forces, with many of its roughly 200,000 members hailing from small towns and rural areas in the South.

Marines are unabashed about distinguishing themselves from the rest of the military, with a warrior ethos and a religious zeal for their branch of service that they liken to a brotherhood.

"We've never changed our motto. We've never changed our pitch to new recruits. We have hardly changed our formal uniforms in 235 years," said Marine Reserve Lt. Col. Paul Hackett, 48, who has been in the Corps for 25 years. "We are a religion unto ourselves, and we pride ourselves in that."

The Marine Corps traces its roots to an 18th century Philadelphia bar, Tun Tavern, where, according to legend, the first Colonial Marines were recruited in 1775 – setting the tone for troops who still boast they are the toughest, most aggressive fighters in the military.

Over the centuries they have remained faithful to their martial traditions, even in the face of sweeping societal change. The Marines Corps was among the last in the military to open its doors to women, forming the first female Corps in 1943, according to the Women's Memorial in Washington D.C.

But some things haven't changed. Marine recruiting commercials are still full of macho swagger that dare people to become one of "The Few. The Proud. The Marines."

Much has been said about the Marine "mystique," the almost cult-like bonds developed among a force known historically to have higher casualty rates because it is considered the "tip of the spear," or the first to respond to bloody conflicts. Marine officers say that kind of unit "cohesion" – fostered through close living quarters – can literally mean the difference between life and death when headed into battle.

Many Marines say they aren't bothered by the notion of serving with openly gay men and women. Gary Solis, a Marine combat veteran who teaches the laws of war at Georgetown University Law Center, says others have the misconception that openly gay Marines will not be as aggressive or "gung-ho" as their comrades in arms.

"Of course, we know none of that's true about homosexuals," Solis added. "There have always been homosexuals in the Marine Corps, but when you acknowledge it openly, that's a different thing. There are many Marines, particularly the older, more senior Marines, who don't want to see that image diluted."

That image is flaunted here in Oceanside, a coastal community bordering Camp Pendleton, where souped-up pick up trucks with Marine Corps stickers in the back windows rumble down the main street flanked by towering Palms.

The downtown is dotted with barber shops adorned with American flags advertising "military-style" cuts and dry cleaners filled with racks of freshly pressed uniforms.

Marines say they know there are gay troops in the Corps but they prefer that remain an unspoken fact on the battlefield.

Iraq veteran Miguel Jimenez, 37, a staff sergeant who left the Marine Corps in 2008, said he would have been uncomfortable having an openly gay man in the Marine unit he led. His Marines often spent the night in their armored vehicle, he said, changing their clothes and sleeping within inches of each other.

"I don't like that idea" of lifting the ban, said Jimenez, sitting in his truck with his pit bull, Angel, near Oceanside's Surf Museum and GI Joe's military apparel shop. "I think there would be alienation, maybe open hostility toward that guy."

Sgt. David Trentham said allowing gays to serve openly could become a distraction for units engaged in combat.

"I just think it would complicate things," said Trentham, 24, of Sevierville, Tenn. "If you have two homosexuals in a unit, they could have a relationship and if they broke it off, is that going to cause the mission to fail because they are having problems?"

Marine Corps Commandant Amos has expressed concern that the change could disrupt the cohesion of combat units where troops must put their lives in each other's hands.

"There is nothing more intimate than combat and I want to make that point crystal clear," Amos told reporters in San Diego recently. "There is nothing more intimate than young men and young women, and when you're talking infantry, we're talking our young men laying out, sleeping alongside of one another, and sharing death and fear and the loss of their brothers. So I don't know what the effect of that would be on unit cohesion."

Amos also pointed out that the Marine Corps has a policy of two Marines per room on base, unlike other military branches.

Will Rodriguez-Kennedy, a Marine corporal who was discharged in 2008 under the "don't ask, don't tell" law, said the Corps' demanding standards and the strong sense of brotherhood are what prompted him to join in the first place.

"My calling has always been service, and I wanted to go into the best of the branches, the one that showed the most pride, the most challenge," he said, adding that he wants to rejoin if and when the ban is lifted.

He said that Marine Corps officers can smooth the transition to gays serving openly through leadership.

"There's so much discipline that is instilled in our Marines that if they see the senior officers saying this is not acceptable then they are going to say this is not acceptable," Rodriguez-Kennedy said.

Marines say privately they know the policy is on its way out, adding that the older officers will take it harder than the younger ones who have grown up in a more open society.

But in the end, Lt. Col. Hackett says every good Marine follows orders, and "if that's what the president orders, I can tell you by God we're going to excel above and beyond the other services to make it happen and be damn good at it."

_____

Associated Press writers Anne Flaherty in Washington and Elliot Spagat in San Diego contributed to this report.

___

Online:

Marine Corps: http://www.marines.mil

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OCEANSIDE, Calif. — They are the few, the proud and perhaps the military's biggest opponents of lifting the ban on openly gay troops. Most of those serving in America's armed forces have no str...
OCEANSIDE, Calif. — They are the few, the proud and perhaps the military's biggest opponents of lifting the ban on openly gay troops. Most of those serving in America's armed forces have no str...
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10:49 PM on 12/07/2010
"I just think it would complicate things," said Trentham, 24, of Sevierville, Tenn. "If you have two homosexuals in a unit, they could have a relationship and if they broke it off, is that going to cause the mission to fail because they are having problems?"
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Are you kidding me? That's like saying, if you take a random straight male and female and put them together in one room, they might create a sexual relationship. I'm a gay man. I like males. But I don't like all males. Has this guy ever considered attractiveness into his bullsht equation? There are also females in the marine corps, the same scenario can happen. So inconsistent.
P.S. - Why do the straight men who accuse gay men of wanting them are always the physically unattractive ones?
05:59 PM on 12/02/2010
"There have always been homosexuals in the Marine Corps, but when you acknowledge it openly, that's a different thing. There are many Marines, particularly the older, more senior Marines, who don't want to see that image diluted."

Just leave your statement as "There have always been homosexuals in the Marine Corps". It is no different if you say it out loud. And by the way, hearing the stupid comments from Marines (past and present) is doing much more to dilute the image of the Marines.
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11:46 AM on 12/02/2010
I suppose GLBT persons should not complain if heterosexual men and women want to be the only ones risking being killed fighting for our country and our way of life? Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would care what goes on in the pants of the person standing next to them while defending the USA. Clearly, denying ANYONE the right to participate in the defense process is misguided.
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handyallen1
bleeding heart
10:41 PM on 11/28/2010
the marines attitude reminds me of Randy Newmans song "Half a Man"
08:57 PM on 11/28/2010
Well, I can assure you the ("straight" married) ones who have spent the night with ME don't feel that way.
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Berettasskeeter
For what we are about to receive, may we be truly
07:36 PM on 11/28/2010
Sorry Miss Watson, but the survey was NOT about whether or not to repeal DADT. Rather, it was a loaded survey that implied it will be repealed, and how best to go about integrating homosexuals into the Force.
Semper fi
06:17 PM on 11/28/2010
The few, the proud, the bigoted!
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MohammedAbbasi
Co-Director, Association of British Muslims
05:29 PM on 11/28/2010
What do you expect the Marines are basically a religious cult with a heavy Southern Baptist wift
08:57 PM on 11/28/2010
Hay-Soose would be so proud.
02:02 PM on 11/28/2010
I can appreciate the Marine Corps point of view in this, as historically, Marines are the first to go into a combat situation and the last to leave.
Recently, In another DADT article here, I read a former military person's point of view regarding DADT, and their point of view expanded my perception of the issue. That point of view being that DADT needed repeal though it was their belief NOT during times of combat/war as such change is disruptive to the rank and file structure of the military, regardless of branch. This point of view was further reinforced by explaining the military at large continues to deal with ripples left by the introduction of women serving in the military.
I clarified with the poster who readily acknowledged that times of peace would be best and therein was their issue...when would the U.S. have another period of peace?
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11:50 AM on 12/02/2010
I'm unclear as to how acknowledging the acceptance of people who are already standing next to you could interfere with "unit cohesion". The changes that would take place are purely intellectual, and legal; not physical. I happen to know several Gay Marines, and they are as proud to be marines, and serve their country as anyone else.
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Skepticat
Supporting skeptical felines everywhere
01:46 PM on 11/28/2010
The marines have had DADT gays serving for decades just like everybody else. I suspect that they may even have a slightly higher than average ratio compared to other armed forces because of the need of some gay males to prove to themselves and the world that they are tougher than the rest - and what better place to do so then in the rightly respected marines if you can master the very tough selection and training process. "unit cohesion" - is not dependent on everybody being straight - or even all gay like the 300 Spartans - but that the members of a squad or platoon believe that the other troops will look out for them. People who survive and thrive at venues like Parris Island don't seem to be the type likely to wimp out very much be they either gay or straight.
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01:23 PM on 11/28/2010
"Marine Reserve Lt. Col. Paul Hackett, 48, who has been in the Corps for 25 years. "We are a religion unto ourselves, and we pride ourselves in that.""

They are a "religion"? ... Well, that explains the h0m0ph0bia!
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Berettasskeeter
For what we are about to receive, may we be truly
07:37 PM on 11/28/2010
As a society made up mostly of men, the Corps is neither afraid of nor hateful of men!
Semper fi
08:59 PM on 11/28/2010
Damn, I am trying to lose weight, and your avatar made me hungry again.
01:03 PM on 11/28/2010
And it's ridiculous to keep saying "the arguments against DADT are exactly the same as the arguments against integration".

So what if they are?

Being gay isn't the same as being black. One's skin is something someone can't help, and more importantly, it's an overt characteristic. I don't care how tolerant and open you think the world should be, the only way someone will know whether you're gay or straight is if you tell them. You can heavily imply or act in a particular way to imply it, but it's hidden. We can't *see* gay. We can *see* skin color.

And racial integration didn't come about because the President promised repeal because it was a convenient political talking point when he was running. It came about because we were in a war and we were under conscription and we needed more troops. This discussion didn't come up because discharging gay servicemembers was negatively impacting the military and/or one of our missions. People want to use the military to engineer tolerance for gays and lesbians. They don't care about unit cohesion or readiness or even discomfort of other servicemembers (which kind of defeats the purpose).

There are plenty of things the military does that might not make a ton of sense to civilians. People in the military tend to have the same haircuts. I'm sure you could find a couple thousand who would say someone's hairstyle doesn't bother them. But they do it anyway.
01:46 PM on 11/28/2010
So let's make it easy for everyone to tell who is gay.....how about the LGBT find a drug that will turn skin purple? Better yet, let's figure out a way to put some drug or chemical into the water that will change the skin color of every LGBT person? Did it occur to you maybe being gay is "something that can't be helped?" Last I read up on that, the jury was still out.

Quoting again from your post "People want to use the military to engineer tolerance for gays and lesbians. They don't care about unit cohesion or readiness or even discomfort of other servicemembers (which kind of defeats the purpose). ..

Did I miss something you are a people, correct?
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Dale Birmingham
Conservative who Believes in America
02:54 PM on 11/28/2010
I got one that will tell. Put a momo in the shower with some of the baddest hard core marines in the world and see if he comes out alive.
09:00 PM on 11/28/2010
The Nineteenth Century called, it misses you!
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hankashley
My micro-bio does not meet HuffPo guidelines.
12:58 PM on 11/28/2010
Do not make positive comments about The Marines or the future of repealling DADT on this thread or it will be removed by the moderators.
12:46 PM on 11/28/2010
"Marines say privately they know the policy is on its way out, adding that the older officers will take it harder than the younger ones who have grown up in a more open society."

This is a lie. "Marines" don't say that, and hell, it's the younger ones who are hoo-rah semper fi than the old hats. They're the hyper-masculine guys.
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USMCR
Re-elect NO ONE ! !
03:02 PM on 11/28/2010
The Marine Corps is the LEAST top heavy of all of the services. We have fewer officers per enlisted than any other service. And not only do we have more enlisted they are more junior in rank. 52% are first enlistment. Under 4 years of service.
11:28 AM on 11/28/2010
What would this country be like if the majority agreed that blacks could not have basic rights?

The majority should NEVER be voting or polling on the rights of others.

We are ALL supposed to have the same rights. ALL of us.

All.

Everyone.

Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
11:46 AM on 11/28/2010
Sorry not the same. Benign skin color is completely different. Never met a black guy who could pretend he was white to catch a cab at night.
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EmmaDarian
All in all, I'm loving every rise and fall (RHCP)
12:03 PM on 11/28/2010
Benign? As opposed to what?

You give yourself away in every comment.
02:15 PM on 11/28/2010
Obviously, you are unfamiliar with the history of black Americans who skin was so fair they presented themselves as "white" and were accepted as "white" while denying their race!
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Berettasskeeter
For what we are about to receive, may we be truly
07:50 PM on 11/28/2010
There is NO Right to military service, as has been affirmed by the Courts on many occasions.
Semper fi