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House 'Radicalization' Hearings Worry U.S. Muslims

Muslim Radicalization Hearings

First Posted: 01/05/11 11:19 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 07:25 PM ET

By Daniel Burke
Religion News Service

WASHINGTON (RNS) Mass protests against planned mosques in New York City and Tennessee. An Oklahoma referendum to ban Islamic law. A media circus around a Florida pastor's threat to burn Qurans. An outbreak of homegrown Islamic terrorists. Two U.S.-led wars in predominantly Muslim countries.

There was no shortage of topics to discuss at the recent Muslim Public Affairs Council convention in Los Angeles. But the prospect of congressional hearings on the "radicalization of the American Muslim community" topped the list.

"There were so many different responses to it," said Salam Al-Marayati, the council's president, "starting with disbelief that this is happening now, in 2011."

Some of the 1,000 Muslim-American attendees wanted to combat Rep. Peter King, the new GOP chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, in the media. Others wanted to consult with anti-discrimination groups. A team of lawyers recommended that American
Muslims "not take King's bait," Al-Marayati recalled.

As the GOP assumes control of the House, Republicans have pledged to hold public hearings on everything from the new health care law to WikiLeaks. While such hearings often elicit little interest beyond the Beltway, King's announcement immediately drew suspicion from many
American Muslims.

Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim elected to Congress, sounded the alarm last month.

"It is worthwhile to find out what turns somebody from a normal citizen into a violent radical," he told MSNBC. "But to say that we're only going to do it against this community, and ... to change the debate to vilify this community is very scary and clearly has McCarthyistic
implications."

A nine-term incumbent from Long Island, King has a sharp tongue, little patience for political correctness and a history of controversial statements about Muslims.

"There are too many mosques in this country," King told Politico in 2007. "There are too many people who are sympathetic to radical Islam. We should be looking at them more carefully and finding out how we can infiltrate them."

On Fox News last February, King said 85 percent of American mosques are led by extremists. "This is an enemy living among us," he added.

A number of Muslim scholars and advocates have sharply disputed King's statistics, calling them evidence of bias or ignorance.

"That figure frankly smacks of prejudice against the Muslim community," said Akbar Ahmed, a professor of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington who recently completed a yearlong study of American Muslims.

Ahmed said he shares King's concerns about homegrown Islamic terrorism. "But what concerns me is that these hearings will become a media spectacle, and that the information given to the American public will not be correct," Ahmed said. "It will just be a lot of guys giving their opinion."

King's office did not respond to repeated requests for comment about the hearings.

To be sure, a number of government reports and high-ranking officials see homegrown terrorism as a lethal and growing threat. In the last two years, 50 Americans have been indicted on terrorism charges, according to Attorney General Eric Holder.

"The threat has changed from simply worrying about foreigners coming here, to worrying about ... American citizens raised here, born here, and who for whatever reason, have decided they are going to become radicalized and take up arms against the nation in which they were
born," Holder told ABC News last month.

In December alone, two young Muslims were arrested on charges of attempting to detonate deadly bombs in Oregon and Maryland. Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum and a scholar whose work has been cited by King but heavily criticized by others, called the upcoming hearings "an important step."

"The U.S. government has tended to shy away from this topic," Pipes said. "It's easy to condemn terrorism. It's much harder to get at the nature of it, the causes of it, the growth of it, and have frank discussions about how to prevent it."

King has said most Muslims in America are "hardworking, dedicated Americans." But local and federal law enforcement officials complain that Muslim leaders and imams refuse to cooperate with their investigations, he said.

"There's a disconnect between outstanding Muslims who contribute so much to the future of our country and those leaders who -- for whatever reason -- acquiesce in terror or ignore the threat," King wrote in a Dec. 19 op-ed in Newsday.

But Al-Marayati said American Muslims have helped law enforcement officials foil nearly 40 percent of al-Qaida-related terror plots on U.S. soil since 9/11, including seven of the last 10, according to an MPAC study of government records and media reports.

Former Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff, FBI Director Robert Mueller, and a host of other law enforcement officials have praised Muslim leaders for helping identify and root out extremists, Al-Marayati said.

"[King] keeps saying that Muslims are not cooperating with law enforcement," Al-Marayati said. "Our database shows otherwise."

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By Daniel Burke Religion News Service WASHINGTON (RNS) Mass protests against planned mosques in New York City and Tennessee. An Oklahoma referendum to ban Islamic law. A media circus around a Florida...
By Daniel Burke Religion News Service WASHINGTON (RNS) Mass protests against planned mosques in New York City and Tennessee. An Oklahoma referendum to ban Islamic law. A media circus around a Florida...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Bill Sampson
Truth is the most valuable thing we have!
12:13 PM on 01/09/2011
Jan - Do yourself a favor and stop with your rubbish! you are very obviously an ignorant individual or a racist. I have worked and lived in Muslim Countries and have many Muslim friends. I have been exposed to their religion and know enough about it to see through your xenophobia.
Whatever you think of Sharia, you do not have to use your fear mongering to promote your racism! It does not concern you, not now and not ever! In the US, we have a Constitution that guaranties our rights! This make your racist arguments null and void and exposes your scare tactics as nothing more than a misguided attempt at spreading hatred and bigotry.

Read linked article from the BBC if you are actually capable of reading! You have only been able to demonstrate to me your ability to repeatedly copying and pasting racist propaganda jargon from hate sites!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/sharia_1.shtml

Shame on you!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
11:11 PM on 01/06/2011
A Page Of Links to Articles on Muslims Against Terrorism and Extremism:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm
04:45 PM on 01/07/2011
That is great. Except that there are plenty of Muslims that disagree with them and would be willing to kill them for these views (in addition to killing onnMuslims).

Rather than try to pretend that there is not a substantial group of Muslims that would like to silence the Muslims who produced that website and those essays, I think we should examine the situation without blinders on, and not act like ostriches. We should support the Muslims who are willing to stand up to extremists, not try to claim that there are no extremists or that they do not pose a threat to other Muslims or nonMuslims.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Bill Sampson
Truth is the most valuable thing we have!
10:09 PM on 01/07/2011
I hear a lot of people stating similar sentiments as yours! However, my sense of decency does not allow me to accept accusations toward fellow Americans without unbiased and reputable sources! As one who appears to be reiterating the same demagoguery, can you guide me to the sources you are using to denigrate the estimated 6 to 8 million American Muslims? I have to admit that if the information you are repeating is true, then we all should be very concerned! However, I, and I suspect many decent fellow Americans, well be infinitely more concerned if the accusations you are regurgitating are in fact not true!!!
12:16 AM on 01/08/2011
monkey see monkey dude!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:51 PM on 01/06/2011
A lot of non-Muslims have opinions regarding "how Muslims feel" about a wide variety of topics.

How do American Muslims feel?

Why don't we ask them?

http://www.myfaithmyvoice.com/viewpsa.php

Hm. Quite a bit different than the picture many non-Muslims portray.

I wonder why that is?
04:29 PM on 01/07/2011
But that is basically anecdotal. And I have plenty of anecdotes that demonstrate the opposite.

However, what is more enligtening is to consider the polls and surveys to understand what is actually going on in the Islamic community in the US, in Europe and around the world.
12:20 AM on 01/08/2011
who dah mokey!
04:32 PM on 01/07/2011
What also is a bit concerning is that when a very overly innocuous white-washed version of Islam and Muslims is presented, as in this website, it makes one wonder.

How does this explain the bad behaviors? The bad statements of Islamic leaders and clerics?

The inconsistency and the lack of concern for Muslims with this pattern is a bit disturbing. They seem more concerned with trying to convince nonMuslims that ALL Muslims are wonderful peaceful people (which is true in most cases), instead of addressing the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
12:21 AM on 01/08/2011
me do not like the monkey!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:38 PM on 01/06/2011
Good article (with good embedded video) on the conflict between (majority) peaceful Sufi Muslims, and (minority) violent extremist Muslims, in Pakistan:

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/06/the-islam-that-hard-liners-hate/?partner=rss&emc=rss
12:50 PM on 01/08/2011
That is a great article, but it leaves out a few things.

Sufis can be violent too (Muslim Brotherhood is Sufi and so is the Taliban, which is Deobandi which is a type of Sufi, as are many of the Chechnyan resistance fighters).

Sufis are not thought to be real Muslims by many other Muslims, particularly Wahhabis. They believe they are heretics and must be killed as a result for blasphemy and defaming Islam.

Sufis and simlar groups are persecuted by Muslims in all sorts of places, not just Pakistan. In Turkey and Saudi Arabia and India and Bangladesh, for instance, but many other places.
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ArchbishopBenevolent
Pre-Approved Saint, Beatific but not Canonical
07:55 PM on 01/06/2011
Congress should not dirty its hands by investigating religious groups, bishops, imams, rabbis and priests in public hearings under oath.

If Peter King and the Congressional Republicans want to pander to their Christianical base or to really find out what is causing radicalization, they are well within their rights to sub poena the Head of the FBI, Chairs of Islamic Studies, Psychology, Criminology, Sociology from some university of choice, etc. for these hearings to find out.

You would not want Congress to investigate journalists and news outlets, would you? Respect for free speech, correct? Same goes for religion.
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09:39 PM on 01/06/2011
This is the attitude that allowed pedophilia to run rampant in the Catholic Church for decades.

Disagree. If journalists are in league with criminals, investigate and prosecute. Same for religious leaders. If they preach violence, hold them accountable.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Bill Sampson
Truth is the most valuable thing we have!
10:21 PM on 01/07/2011
Where do you get the information that gives you the moral grounds to cast such a wild and unsubstantiated insulting accusations about fellow citizens? What religious Islamic preachers are you referring to? What violence are they preaching here? And what leads you to say they are criminals? Yes there have be few incidents but we should not generalize based on few!
If a segment of our society is unhappy with what we are doing to their brethren in faith, wouldn’t we be served much better by understanding their concerns and work to alleviate them? Did we lose every bit of our humanity?
12:28 AM on 01/08/2011
dude u ever wear daa white pooointy hoody!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Itsbeenalongday
Eliminating poverty is smart business
06:27 PM on 01/06/2011
All King is missing is a white hood.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
07:39 PM on 01/06/2011
I am all for finding enemies of the Republic within...agencies are in place for that purpose. We have seen what fear mongering can do.......the so called "Patriot" Act tramples all over the Bill of Rights. To think that the Neocon agenda of Global Manifest Destiny has not created enemies of Muslims all over the globe is simply to not think. Political Grandstanding of this sort is a diversionary tactic while Corporatists quietly loot 300 million or so people.....in this country.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
05:21 PM on 01/06/2011
Congressional investigations amount to no more than political theater
04:46 PM on 01/06/2011
Somehow, I am not convinced these "hearings" will be so awful for Muslims. What are they worried about? It is targeted at extremists, who (1) kill far more Muslims than nonMuslims and (2) are the ones who are creating a negative impression of Muslims and Islam.

So what is the downside for Muslims?
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
05:14 PM on 01/06/2011
Perhaps the right wing imperious fear and hate mongering against Muslims should be investigated by congress as well.
05:40 PM on 01/06/2011
Yeah all those suicide bombings.

I wonder why the FBI crime statistics do not show that though? They show that hate crimes against Muslims have dropped by more than a factor of 4 in the last 10 years, and that hate crimes against Jews are 9 times more common than hate crimes against Muslims in the US. Strange...
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09:15 AM on 01/07/2011
And one possible big upside:

If we start applying political pressure on Islamist mosques and leaders, non-Islamist Muslims will have more political room within American Islam for reform.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Just-a-Guy
02:39 PM on 01/06/2011
Question for Professor Akbar Ahmed:

If you share King's concerns, how do you suggest we go about rooting out the people who would self-detonate in a mall, or on a plane, or in a church, or in a preschool?
04:28 PM on 01/06/2011
My opinion is that the first thing that should be done is for Islamic leadership to realize they have a problem. Until that happens, you can get no where.

And many in the US and elsewhere do not believe there is a problem with the ummah, or blame the problems on Jews or the CIA or the media or evil Jinns or who knows what else.

And even worse, many Muslim leaders, even in the US, applaud this sort of activity.

So that is where you have to start. I have 100s of other ideas, but until Muslims realize there is trouble in the House of Islam, and stop the denial, then it is all pointless.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
05:15 PM on 01/06/2011
what does that have to do with congress?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
wbthacker
Can YOU pass the Turing Test?
02:11 PM on 01/06/2011
It seems factual to me that a radical element prospered in Britain's Islamic community. Those who committed the 7/7 London bombings were British born Muslims who associated with this radical Muslim subculture. Britain didn't watch them closely enough.

Christianity also has its radical subculture. These days all they do is picket funerals and otherwise embarrass themselves. But they used to bomb abortion clinics, and to this day the government keeps tabs on people who are involved with radical Christian movements. That intensified further after the Oklahoma City bombing was connected with radical Christian groups. So Michigan's Hutaree militiamen were being watched, and were arrested before they could carry out their plans.

So why *shouldn't* we be looking for similar nuts among American Muslims?

One statement caught my eye. The author is arguing that Muslims cooperate with police authorities hunting radicals: "Al-Marayati said American Muslims have helped law enforcement officials foil nearly 40 percent of al-Qaida-related terror plots on U.S. soil since 9/11, including seven of the last 10."

Thanks, but...

Why do American Muslims know so much about al Quaeda plots? My assumption would have been that those terrorists are as alien to my Muslim neighbors as they are to me.
I'm dismayed to hear that in 40% of the cases, American Muslims have information about al Quaeda plans.

Does that mean that somehow their religion is connecting them with the radicals?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sam Badger
04:13 PM on 01/06/2011
The Hutaree militia was being watched. "Christians" were not being watched. There was a surgical approach; the FBI identified specific, dangerous ideologies within the broader Christian culture and sought to make contact with it.

Considering all the sting operations against terrorists, this is going well enough without us needing to tap the phones of America's Imams.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
wbthacker
Can YOU pass the Turing Test?
11:49 AM on 01/07/2011
The FBI has had its eye on the radical Christian community ever since the Oklahoma City bombing. (Longer than that actually - it goes back to abortion bombings in the 70s.) I'm pretty sure that if you put up a website for "Sam Badger's Christian Identity Club", even if you do nothing else the FBI will have a file on you within a year. They're watching Christians.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
10:04 PM on 01/06/2011
"I'm dismayed to hear that in 40% of the cases, American Muslims have informatio­n about al Quaeda plans."

Where's that stat from?

Link?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
wbthacker
Can YOU pass the Turing Test?
11:40 AM on 01/07/2011
I quoted that from the original article.
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02:02 PM on 01/06/2011
On Fox News last February, King said 85 percent of American mosques are led by extremists. "This is an enemy living among us," he added.

====================

One commenter objects to the hearings because of the slippery slope factor.

My feeling is that we are already on a slippery slope, one leading to a Muslim/non-Muslim split in the populace.

The hearings may be able to head that off by identifying the exact source of the problem within the Islamic community. I do not believe all Muslims are enemies of America. I also do not believe all Muslims wish America well.

Somewhere between those extremes is the truth. Maybe the hearings will help us to find it.

We certainly have to do better at identifying the enemy element in Islam than "extremists" and "radicals." We have to do better than identifying our enemies as Muslims who hate America. We have to identify the ideology of our enemy. We have to understand what our enemy wants. What are they extreme and radical about? What is their definition of losing the war? What is ours?

Questions that are never asked will never be answered.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sam Badger
04:07 PM on 01/06/2011
Of course, we need to be better at identifying the extremist and safe elements. This is an academic exercise, and understanding its essential relationship to the religion of Islam is important. However, there are different ways of going about this kind of thing. We can either question the loyalty of Muslims in general, and justify our questions using broad, stereotyped statements that will only exacerbate the appearance of a division between Muslims and non-Muslims, or we can try to look at the piles of research which already exist about the distinctions and divisions within the "Islamic world".

If I wanted to have a committee hearing, it would specifically be about the reach of violent Salafist ideology in America in general, and it would not be an investigation of Muslims in general. Just like one would not investigate synagogues for "Jewish connections to financial fraud" or White churches for "connections to anti-abortion violence", we shouldn't investigate mosques for "Muslim terrorist connections". It clearly plays off base stereotypes and tropes which are not only inaccurate, but even slanderous to most people of that faith.

For instance, the 85% statistic stated by King is absurd, where did he get that? What does it even mean? It proves, in my mind, that he's the last kind of person you'd want to touch these hearings, because he's already made up his mind.
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07:03 PM on 01/06/2011
When the Administration issues guidelines for the Federal Government to avoid using any words connecting terror attacks to Islam, some reality must be injected into the political arena.

Rep. King's hearings may correct some of this ill-considered avoidance. President Obama has made up his mind that the problem has nothing whatever to do with Islam. The hearings may well reverse that assumption.

If the terrorists are not merely criminals who all happen to be Muslim, then we need to know the nexus between Islam and terrorism.
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02:09 PM on 01/07/2011
For instance, the 85% statistic stated by King is absurd, where did he get that?
======================

The Saudis have spent between $300 million and 1 billion over 30 years building mosques in North America, including:

The Omer Bin Al-Khattab Mosque, West Los Angeles
The Los Angeles Islamic Center
The Fresno, California Mosque
The Islamic Center, Denver, Colorado
The Islamic Center in Harrison, New York
The Islamic Center of Northern Virginia

THE WAHHABI LOBBY

Council on American Islamic Relations
Islamic Society of North America (controls a minimum of 324 mosques)
Muslim Students Association
American Muslim Council
American Muslim Alliance
Muslim American Society
The Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences
International Institute of Islamic Thought

http://article.nationalreview.com/269243/wahhabism-islam-in-the-us/stephen-schwartz
04:30 PM on 01/06/2011
Excellent points.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
4real
Don't drink the tea, it's poison
01:26 PM on 01/06/2011
This guy is a-bigot' plain and simple. Targeting an entire religious group based on actions of a few people that profess to follow the same religion is WRONG. How many people would feel comfortable if this were a hearing about their own ethnic or religious group? The purpose of this hearing is to not get a clear understanding, or for security reasons but to inflame and incite h8tred.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Just-a-Guy
02:50 PM on 01/06/2011
Call it whatever you want. But it's pretty disingenuous to just dismiss it as rac1st/xenophobic/bigotry.

For the most part (although I obviously can't speak for everybody) Americans would just rather not have people blowing themselves up in the middle of crowds or attempting to detonate devices in the middle of crowds. Which is what has been happening, with alarming frequency.

Pretty cut-and-dry. We'd just rather not have people who want to do that running around in here. ;)
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
4real
Don't drink the tea, it's poison
03:06 PM on 01/06/2011
When has there ever been an incident in America of someone doing that? It's b!otry!!
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Sam Badger
04:10 PM on 01/06/2011
Yeah and I don't want to get ripped off by Bernie Madoff, it doesn't mean I turn into an anti-Semite. I don't want to get mugged by a gang member, it doesn't mean I join the KKK. Blaming all Muslims for the violence of a few Muslims is no better than the bigotry of the Nazis or the Klan.
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Sam Badger
01:15 PM on 01/06/2011
Let me lay out some basic principles here:

(1) There are violent Muslims who justify their violence with faith

(2) These violent Muslims do NOT speak for ALL, or even MOST Muslims

(3) There is no particular, overarching Islamic institution which endorses this behavior in the SUNNI world.

(4) Our government has not investigated groups previously known to conspire with terrorists, like Irish Americans, Cuban Americans,

(5) The same arguments used to besmirch Muslims are used by al Qaeda to besmirch Christians, Jews, Hindus and Americans, specifically that to be an American, a Hindu, a Christian or a Jew, one is morally complicit in all killings committed by Christian-controlled, Jewish-controlled, Hindu-controlled or American-controlled hierarchies. Just as any random American is not directly responsible for American war crimes in Iraq, likewise Imam Rauf is not responsible for all terrorist attacks committed by Muslims.

(6) Guilt by association ALWAYS exacerbates these problems. It will make more Muslims sympathize with terrorists who argue all Americans are out to destroy Islam, and their actions in turn will help convince more Americans that all Muslims are violent. Instead of continuing the cycle, it is best for us to try to change it where possible.

(7) By voting for the Iraq war, Mr King has denied himself all moral validity in criticizing Islamic violence by helping the US state & "allies" commit the single worst act of violence outside of the African continent in the 21st century-the war in Iraq.
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02:25 PM on 01/06/2011
Your arguments for not holding hearings:

--Islam should not be blamed for crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.
--Islam has no Pope
--other terror groups have not been investigated
--not all Muslims agree with terrorism
--there is no Sunni institution that agrees with terrorism

--We should not blame a specific Muslim, such as Imam Rauf
--Guilt by association will cause moderate Muslims to become terrorists
--Rep. King voted for the Iraq war.

For these reasons, we should not hold hearings to attempt to understand what, if anything, is wrong in the American Islamic community.

I am not convinced.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Hassanista
03:11 PM on 01/06/2011
There IS nothing wrong with the American Muslim community- that's the thing. We're better educated, better employed, and have a lower crime rate than the rest of the country. We're rather assimilated, all speak English, and whenever the FBI stop an attack it's always either an FBI agent conning converts, prison converts, or politically angsty teenagers. With Muslim communities all over the country, you'd expect a 'problem' to manifest in radical mosques, daily terrorism attacks, terrorism-preaching Imams, or at least one attack actually related to a Mosque or community.

In other words, the Mosques and Islamic communities have no problems, except an utter lack of organization or a coherent subuculture.

And King and his Cronies KNOW that. There's no credible threat from us, so to hold 'investigative hearings' is merely an excuse to parade anti-Islam "experts" like Geller and Spencer on a national platform.
03:43 PM on 01/06/2011
Stellar point my friend. Nobody is targeting all Muslims.
04:33 PM on 01/06/2011
I have to agree with Jan. Uncompelling. To say the least.
longtimegone
my micro-bio remains empty
05:30 PM on 01/06/2011
When have you done anything else?
01:07 PM on 01/06/2011
Sad how blinded everybody is by PC. A hearing of this sort has nothing to do with concentration camps or McCarthyism. It is a legitimate look into why a particular group seems more prone to radicalization.
01:26 PM on 01/08/2011
King is the wrong guy to do this. He claimed that 85% of US mosques are headed by extremists. That doesn't even pass the smell test - we would be seeing a lot more problems on the ground if that were true. Unfortunately he has on blinders of his own and he would actually radicalize more Muslims.
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Downrivers
Siskiyou Mountains
01:05 PM on 01/06/2011
COULD possibly the Neocon agenda of global Manifest Destiny have anything to do with it?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
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02:32 PM on 01/06/2011
Or:


Could it be connected to this very sophisticated and long-term colonization program designed to produce a caliphate no matter what it might be called.

"‘Alamiyyat al-Islam, the principle in fiqh al-aqalliyyat that declares Islam to be a global religion meant to encompass the entire world, provides the basis for answering these questions.

The world is divided into two parts, separated only by time: the lands under Muslim rule and those which will eventually receive the Islamic dawa and come under Muslim rule. Muslims who live in non-Muslim countries, therefore, should not be obligated to migrate back to a Muslim country.

They are allowed to live in non-Muslim countries, albeit for the purpose of being the bearers the religious call and inviting others to Islam.24"


http://www.currenttrends.org/docLib/20061018_MonographFishman2.pdf
04:35 PM on 01/06/2011
Funny how Islamic leaders have told you what they intend to do, what they are doing, in speeches and in writings, and shown you how they derive their justification from their sacred writings, many many times. And you have witnessed all kinds of activity that they have engaged in to pursue their stated goals.

And yet, you somehow do not believe it.