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Ban On Women In Combat Is Discriminatory, High-Level Military Panel States


First Posted: 01/14/11 03:45 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 07:25 PM ET

WASHINGTON -- A high-level military advisory panel is set to recommend that the armed services overturn its policy barring women from serving in combat roles, a step that would remove a key structural barrier for women trying to advance their military careers.

Women currently make up 14.6 percent of the active-duty military. Since 2001, 137 female service members have been killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Since 1994, women have been barred from serving in units at the level of battalion and below that engage in direct ground combat.

A draft report by the Military Leadership Diversity Commission, a group established by Congress in 2009, concludes that the current policy is outdated and discriminatory. Commissioners include 24 senior retired and active-duty members of the military, in addition to leaders in the business community and academia.

"The Commission recommends that DoD and Services remove a structural barrier for women," reads the report, which commissioners met to review Thursday and Friday. "The current DoD and Service policies barring women from direct ground combat career fields and assignments have been in place since the early 1990s. As previously described, these policies constitute a structural barrier that keeps women from entering the tactical career fields associated with promotion to flag/general officer grades and serving in career enhancing assignments. The Commission considered four strands of argument related to rescinding the policies."

In many ways reflecting the debate over allowing gay men and women to serve openly, the commission's draft language rejected the argument that integrating combat forces would hurt unit morale and cohesion, saying that experience does not bear out that claim:

First, the Commission addressed arguments related to readiness and mission capability. One frequently-cited argument in favor of the current policy is that having women serving in direct combat will hamper mission effectiveness by hurting unit morale and cohesion. Comparable arguments were made with respect to racial integration, but were ultimately never borne out. Similarly, to date, there has been little evidence that the integration of women into previously- closed units or occupations has had a negative impact on important mission-related performance factors, like unit cohesion. ...

Furthermore, a study by the Defense Department Advisory Committee on Women in the Services (2009) actually found that a majority of focus group participants felt that women serving in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan have had a positive impact on mission accomplishment. Additionally, panel members on this topic at an MLDC meeting cited the need to bring to bear all talent: The blanket restriction for women limits the ability of commanders in theater to pick the most capable person for the job.

The National Organization for Women first passed a resolution supporting women acting in combat roles in 1990. "Women in the military are exposed to the same kind of dangers that combat service exposes a soldier to, but the difference is that the women are not getting combat pay, and they're not getting combat-related opportunities for promotion," NOW President Terry O'Neill said in an interview with The Huffington Post. "So it's only fair to recognize that women belong, as much as men do, in combat units."

Joe Davis, director of public affairs for the Veterans of Foreign Wars, said his organization has no resolution opposing or supporting the women in combat issue.

"The current DOD policy is to not assign women to combat units, yet irregular warfare, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, places those in combat support or combat-service support units in just as much risk as the infantry," Davis said. "Regardless of what the commission recommends, this issue will be an open debate for some time."

Marty Callaghan, the media director at the American Legion, said that while they have not yet taken a position on the draft report, last summer at its national convention, members passed a resolution saying the Legion would "initiate efforts to encourage the repeal of the Department of Defense's policy governing the assignment of women in combat situations."

The commission's report is expected out in March. "DOD will look at the recommendation and go from there," Pentagon spokesman Marine Corps Col. Dave Lapan said. "We'll see what the nature of the report is when it's done."

UPDATE: Women are currently allowed to serve in Army units supporting ground combat forces. Although their job is not technically to engage in combat, there is no real established front line and many of these individuals are exposed to combat.

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WASHINGTON -- A high-level military advisory panel is set to recommend that the armed services overturn its policy barring women from serving in combat roles, a step that would remove a key structural...
WASHINGTON -- A high-level military advisory panel is set to recommend that the armed services overturn its policy barring women from serving in combat roles, a step that would remove a key structural...
 
 
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COMMUNITY PUNDITS
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TheHandyman 07:04 PM on 01/14/2011
Yes, yes, when the lied about wars start running out of cannon fodder let's indeed send those women to those foreign countries to help in the murder and the may hem. American has finally devolved back to ancient days when the Amazon myth was so prevalent. Will Americans embrace the new idea that women can now be sent to murder innocent men, women, and children in countries that are no longer humans because  Read More...
12:54 PM on 03/14/2011
4 and a half years USMC Scout Sniper, half year is because I extended my contract to get a 3rd 7 month COMBAT tour. I left for basic training the day after I graduated high school. I joined for one reason, to kill our nations enemies. I feel I have a good deal of experience about this subject.
I'm not gonna try and explain, because unless you have been there, you have absolutely no idea what happens in combat. Women should not be allowed in direct combat roles.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
01:56 PM on 01/25/2011
US Army Female Athlete of the Year & US Army Marksmanship Unit Athlete of the Year

http://www.juliegolob.com/
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07:43 PM on 01/23/2011
Women in combat - complex.

1. Its hard enough and takes a lot of time and money to re-wire the male brain and emotion, already more disposed to fighting than women, to not only allow them to kill, but teach them to enjoy it and be proud of it - both a necessity in combat - it will take more for women.

2. Additional time and money will have to be invested to re-wire the male brain and emotion to not protect the women in combat with him any more than he would protect any other fellow service man - this perhaps inherent reaction would be a distraction in combat that I fear will not serve anyone.

3. Once these re-wirings have occured in women how will that affect the soical order when they return to civilization? I see disparity around me all the time in men from the military between those that have actually been in combat and killed others and those that retire without seeing combat. The first are the most likely to be homeless, have PTS, non or low functining paranoia about their environment, however, are the least likely to promote an armed agressive society or home or self protection. The later are, it appears to me, most likely to be pro gun, functioning paranoia about their environments and anti regulation about guns often owning and bragging about several types of auto and semi auto weapons.

The last is just from the people I know.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
11:04 PM on 01/23/2011
Already there, already getting PTSD.  Just not getting the combat pay and benefits.
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11:12 PM on 01/23/2011
LOL!

Which benefits would those be sweety?
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
02:49 AM on 01/24/2011
http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/01/15/women-in-combat-the-next-dont-ask-dont-tell/

Genevieve Chase, founder of American Women Veterans, notes that the military has largely gotten around these restrictions. Commanders can attach women troops to combat units when needed without officially assigning them to said units. At the end of the day though, the matter isn’t how loopholes can be exploited to create a level playing field; this is about women’s visibility, says Chase:
We’re asking for women to be recognized and acknowledged for [their] work.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
06:38 PM on 01/23/2011
it is not that American heroines do not exist, just that they are not taught. Case in point: Deborah Samson aka Robert Shurtliff

http://womenshistory.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1%2FXJ&zTi=1&sdn=womenshistory&cdn=ed...ucation&tm=83&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canton.org%2Fsamson%2F
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11:13 PM on 01/23/2011
You still here playing wise liberal google-veteran?
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
01:28 PM on 01/23/2011
Women in Combat–The Next “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell� January 15, 2011 by Kyle Bachan

http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/01/15/women-in-combat-the-next-dont-ask-dont-tell/

Genevieve Chase, founder of American Women Veterans, notes that the military has largely gotten around these restrictions. Commanders can attach women troops to combat units when needed without officially assigning them to said units. At the end of the day though, the matter isn’t how loopholes can be exploited to create a level playing field; this is about women’s visibility, says Chase:
We’re asking for women to be recognized and acknowledged for [their] work.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
lynzyluhu
Something clever and smart goes here: _____
12:38 AM on 01/23/2011
I am sick and tired of this bigotry! Our military should be proud of all soldiers who are willing to serve this country..gay, straight, black, white, man or woman. An American is an American. A soldier is a soldier.
12:43 PM on 03/11/2011
They are PURPOSELY misleading you. This is NOT about "Women in Combat" this is about "Women in Combat ARMS - Infantry, Armor, Arty, Cav and Special Forces." Women are IN combat but not in "Combat ARMS jobs." What the study talks about is not enough women are making the ranks of GENERAL AND ADMIRAL. Title Ten LIMITS the amount of these in the military and is LESS than 2000. SO, what this study is recommending is putting women in Infantry, Cav, Arty, Tanks, and Special Forces so that MAYBE 100-200 more women get promoted to General Officer level. PROBLEM IS that they are promoted to those levels by CONGRESS. SO, the problem is with CONGRESS not the military itself. There are absolutely NO issues with promotions for race or gender in the ENLISTED ranks. It is SOLELY an officer issue with CONGRESS.
Look up the two Combat Load Studies done by the Army and Navy. BASIC combat load for fighting infantry or marine = 65lbs and marching load = 100lbs. VERY few woman can do this and the men that are have a high rate of bone and joint issues already at 20-25 years of age.
Finally IF there is a thought of doing away with this "barrier" then we must ALSO consider doing away with "Selective Service" requirement for JUST men. MEDIA is all spinning this as an issue of Gender Inequality for the WHOLE military and it is NOT.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
03:46 PM on 01/20/2011
Female medic earns Silver Star in Afghan war
The military said Brown's "bravery, unselfish actions and medical aid rendered under fire saved the lives of her comrades and represents the finest traditions of heroism in combat."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23547346/ns/us_news-military/
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12:36 AM on 01/23/2011
Bravo. And of course women should serve on absolutely equal terms as men.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
11:52 PM on 01/17/2011
Testosterone rates

have been found to be 19% higher in a sample of Black U.S. college students than in their White counterparts (Ross et al., 1986).

Another study, of testosterone metabolites, showed a 10% to 15% higher incidence in Black Americans than in White Americans and a still lower incidence in the Japanese in Japan (Hixson, 1992). 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

So, I suppose all those who propose the echelons should be striated by testosterone levels at the group and not individual level would agree that only blacks should be in the "front lines," whites in the middle, and Asians in the rear echelons.
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06:15 AM on 01/18/2011
You are a make-believe liberal veteran. Thanks for playing
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
12:38 PM on 01/18/2011
That's all you got?  "You fake!"  "You lie!"

Pathetic.
12:42 PM on 01/18/2011
That's an absurd proposal. No one is remotely recommending that.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
03:47 PM on 01/20/2011
It is the same "logic" you are using.
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09:43 PM on 01/17/2011
Artemis34 26 minutes ago (9:12 PM)
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I actually qualified for that so I don't think that is correct. I took the sniper course and did so well the instructor­s were trying to get me on the competitiv­e shooting team.

******************************************************************************

It is sad that liberals like you come here and while being disdainful of the military also pretend to have served. You should be ashamed.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:20 PM on 01/17/2011
Trying to invoke shame is the best you've got? 

I have served and my statements are factual.  Perhaps they simply cannot pass through your paradigm.
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06:16 AM on 01/18/2011
Indeed, a paradigm of being a retired veteran.

Several commenters here have pointed out that you are a fraud. Have a nice day
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:23 PM on 01/17/2011
Here is an example of an Army female

A Soldier with 21 national rifle shooting records added one more trophy to the case Monday: the U.S. Army’s Soldier of the Year.

Sgt. Sherri Gallagher’s young life has been one of high achievement. Now the 26-year old rifle shooter/instructor for the Army Marksmanship Unit...

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/News/2010/2010Soldier.html
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06:17 AM on 01/18/2011
You have a very nice facility with google. Sadly, you will never be one of these females.
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02:28 PM on 01/17/2011
First of all its been proven that woman make better snipers then men. The lack of testosterone is an advantage for us. Second I have met some men that couldn't keep up with me in the service and I was older and smaller then them.
Back off this HoRaHa bs, if someone is in the field and they have the heart to serve nobody is going to out preform them.
When I was serving I met some woman with more courage and strength then most men would ever have. Most came from the men constantly trying to prove they were more "manly" then the next one.
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03:38 PM on 01/17/2011
"Most came from the men constantly trying to prove they were more "manly" then the next one."

That's why young men make warriors and young women make wonderful mothers.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
09:08 PM on 01/17/2011
BTW, I was in the Army 14 years and served in a variety of positions and duty locations as a rational person could imagine.
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07:52 PM on 01/23/2011
I'm curious Red Rover, and cobyson -

I do believe women in other countries do serve in combat right along side men. I know we are proud of our military but we are not the only military in the world.
04:31 PM on 01/17/2011
Lori, with respect, there is no data that supports your sniper comment since the US Army does not have female snipers. The U.S. Army Sniper school is considered one the very best in the world and trains snipers from all countries. They also hold a global competition with the best snipers from around the globe. There has never been a female who has competed in that competition and the team from the U.S. Army Marksman Team have been consistent winners.

Furthermore, it's quite different keeping up with a rear echelon male soldier during a two mile run and putting on an 80lb rucksack and doing the same with a combat unit soldier, especially special ops units where it is not uncommon to find soldiers who can do 100 push ups and 100 situps (strictly graded) in 2 minutes and can run the 2mile in under 11 minutes...but who can also complete a 20 mile force march with 80lbs..

Come on Lori, if you ever served on an active infantry division post, especially somewhere like Benning or Bragg then you know there is a HUGE difference between those soldiers fitness and capabilities and support personel. This is a very important issue and I just believe your response is a bit Cavalier and without proper merit.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
09:12 PM on 01/17/2011
I actually qualified for that so I don't think that is correct.  I took the sniper course and did so well the instructors were trying to get me on the competitive shooting team.  I spoke to my battalion commander at the time and he  discouraged me from continuing saying "What kind of job are you going to get when you get out with a background in shooting?" Perfectly rational advice, so I did not pursue it.  At no time did anyone say I could not do it b/c I'm a woman. 

And on humping packs, as many have said here many times, it is about INDIVIDUAL capabilities.  Some women are capable and willing.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
09:58 PM on 01/17/2011
Here is an Army female that holds shooting records now:  http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/News/2010/2010Soldier.html
12:03 PM on 01/17/2011
I am 10 year Army Veteran, Army Ranger and Former Instructor at the U.S. Army Physical Fitness School (A.K.A. Master Fitness Trainer).

Integrating women into front line combat units, especially infantry units, would be contraindicated for a lot of reasons. Women tend to be smaller, lighter, smaller hearts, smaller lungs, higher percentage of body fat, lower testosterone and Q-angles (angle from hip to knee) which both create performance obstacles and much higher incidences of injury.

Men, on average, are bigger, with bigger aerobic capacities, more lean body mass, more strength and much higher testosterone levels. In almost every instance the male infantryman can carry more weight, longer, and without the same risk of injury that would face his female comrades. Decreasing the average load bearing capacity of a grunt unit would compromise its overall unit combat effectiveness.

With all that said let’s say for every 50 males, there would be 5 females in front line combat units who could meet all the physical requirements. The average front line combat soldier is a highly competitive, high testosterone, 19yo.. Maslow might agree it is inevitable that there would be intimate relations between male and female soldiers. In combat, you can’t have the squad leader being seen as favoring his girlfriend, you can’t have soldiers competing for female relationships, you can’t have field pregnancies. All of this extra dynamic would truly create a highly dysfunctional combat unit.
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03:40 PM on 01/17/2011
Excellent comment. The left is trying to make this about discrimination. It's about science.
04:52 PM on 01/17/2011
For the sake and safety of our soldiers I would hate to see a true life and death issue like this be hijacked by political correctness. It could have very significant impact on unit readiness and performance. Detailed due diligence is a must with this issue.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
10:55 PM on 01/17/2011
Obviously you were selected to work in physical fitness based on your superior intellect and you are in the rear echelons based on your courage.  ;-|
12:11 PM on 01/18/2011
This makes no sense. As you know, the Army grooms it's soldiers and part of all successful careers include instructor jobs. I was selected to be an Instructor at the school after finishing number one in my class with the highest GPA in the courses history. The school is science based course and most of the time spent is in the class room. I taught exercise and muscle physiology, human anatomy and many other science based college level material. Half of the staff at the school who taught along with me all had Master or Ph.D's. I just wanted to provide you with some insight into the course so that you had the proper information to pass judgement.

Previous to my assignment to that school included combat arms assignments to include the 82nd Airborne Division and other special operations assignments.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish...the issue here is a very important one and I would hope, that since you claim you served, that you would show some esprit de corps that would be expected among soldiers when it comes to these issues.

Best
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Balzac
06:54 AM on 01/17/2011
It seems that some female military personnel haven't been getting the full combat pay, even though they're often exposed to risk, even in a supposedly "non-combat" role. Their service must be fully respected and appreciated.

The military policy should not dispose of the idea of discriminating based on gender, but it is not always a good idea to do so. It is important that female military personnel are not denied recognition of their status, facing the risk of injury and death, actually being wounded and dying, and being just as heroic as the men they serve with.

But there should not be any kind of incentive to bring more women to the front line of combat. It is generally worse when a woman dies in the place of a man. Generally, more women on the front lines of combat will create more social disharmony.

Without necessarily explicitly discriminating based on gender, (which may be justifiable in some circumstances), the standards of physical fitness for elite combat units should be geared towards favoring men rather than women. A minimum height requirement and upper body strength are best for this.

Informal means of discrimination can be used if personnel are given discretion of choosing their team for more risky assignments. The main idea is that the military should generally not be more accommodating to women in combat roles, while avoiding any obviously unjust forms of discrimination. As a society, we don't gain from women dying in place of men.
jeremyv1980
Tough times don't last. Tough people do!
04:01 PM on 01/17/2011
They get the same money regardless of their role. If you are in Iraq or afganistan you will get the additional 225$ a month. You can be a cook or infantry and you receive the same compensation for equal rank. I know, I was there.
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Balzac
04:37 PM on 01/17/2011
I wouldn't know. Here's the source I read: http://bit.ly/f8CKCg

"Since 1990 [NOW] has been calling for fair treatment of women in the military who are in fact at risk but are not getting combat pay or opportunities for promotion," O'Neill said.

I'm just trying to be a wet blanket on this idea without being a complete jerk about it, so I decided to make reference to that claim.

But I didn't see any specific information backing up that claim. It would be interesting if someone would inquire with the National Organization of Women to share their specific information on this claim.

This issue has come up before, but for military personnel in general, because accountants wanted to say personnel weren't entitled to combat pay merely for being in the Green Zone after the combat operations had ended.

Either way, I think personnel should be paid more, and the military policy should err on the side of compensating more rather than less when there is any doubt about whether or not they're entitled to it.
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Balzac
05:17 PM on 01/17/2011
Here's the source I read: http://bit.ly/f8CKCg

Perhaps I was too quick to accept the report as credible, as it was from a major feminist organization. I'll be interested to find out what kind of data they have.

I'm trying to be sensitive about the topic of female military personnel, while being sexist and opposing the women's organizations which seek to push more women into combat roles.
jeremyv1980
Tough times don't last. Tough people do!
05:01 AM on 01/17/2011
If a female can pass the APFT in the male category, then adhere to each units and the platoons requirements for physical agility testing with the same requirements as the men, then so be it. Scouts and infantry tend to have the highest standards (army, depending on unit and platoon) and the tankers and combat engineers tend to have the lowest standards where combat units are concerned. Fisters (forward observers) tend to fall inbetween, and combat medics are all over the place in physical agility, usually dependent upon their pre and post deployment platoon assignment. If a female can pull 80 points in all 3 of the mens categories then I would be okay with it. Also, women in combat MOS's will only be awarded APFT points for promotion boards based on their performance in the male chart of the APFT standards, not on the weaker female APFT chart. Also that is the chart that will be considered when discharging for failure of APFT 2 consecutive times as per AR 635-200. The weight and tape will be on the female side since it is more leniant to a females natural body for fat levels. That would be the fair way to allow women into combat MOS's as they are extremely physically demanding and not cut out for most people, even most men.
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06:12 PM on 01/16/2011
Artemis34 05:04 PM on 1/15/2011
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And yet, in the military, the weak are more likely to get a "blanket party" than protection­.

**************************************************************************

Only someone who disdains the military and has never served a day in uniform would make a remark like this.
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Artemis34
Women can vote against the GOP or against their ow
11:19 PM on 01/17/2011
You project your disdain on me. I have none.
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06:12 AM on 01/18/2011
I have seen liberals pretend to be veterans before. You ought to be ashamed.
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06:02 PM on 01/16/2011
Some of you XY chomosonal units are getting a little hissy. Women have fought side by side with men for centuries. The Hellenists. The ancient Syrians. Ghengis Khan had women on the front line of recon. Trained to _kill efficiently as required.

I'm 6' 5". Does that mean, I should size up a 5'8' male as unworthy to serve beside me??
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06:03 PM on 01/16/2011
What unit were you with?
jane bond
a cure for pollution is a cure for cancers ETC.
06:30 PM on 01/16/2011
evidence has shown women lack the necessary prowness the strongest women recruit, generally, is only as strong as the weakest man....women suffer high rates of bone fracture, the 20 something woman has about the lung capacity as the 50 something man....