iPhone app iPad app Android phone app Android tablet app More

States Caught In Crossfire Over Guns In Churches

Gun Control

First Posted: 02/14/11 10:19 PM ET Updated: 05/25/11 07:30 PM ET

By Adelle M. Banks
Religion News Service

The way Rev. Jonathan Wilkins sees it, members of his Baptist church in Thomaston, Ga., should have the right to carry guns into worship services to protect the congregation.

Wilkins' Baptist Tabernacle and a Georgia gun-rights association are challenging a new state law that prohibits weapons in houses of worship. A lower court ruled against them in January; the case is now headed for appeal.

"What we're fighting for is not that just any old body can carry guns in church," Wilkins said. "We would be responsible. We would want people who are trained, and so forth, to carry, people that we designate for protective purposes."

Recently, state legislatures in Georgia, Michigan and Louisiana have been caught in the crossfire of the debate between gun rights and gun control as they consider allowing weapons in houses of worship.

Though gun-rights proponents think they have both the First and Second Amendments on their side, they also cite the rights of religious organizations as property owners. Opponents, meanwhile, worry that having weapons in worship is part of a slippery slope to permitting them everywhere.

A month after then-Georgia Gov. Sonny Perdue signed the 2010 law listing places of worship among "unauthorized" locations for carrying weapons, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal took the opposite tack. Louisiana law now permits trained worshippers to bring guns into churches, mosques and synagogues as long as fellow congregants are informed.

Meanwhile, other states are mulling whether to scale back restrictions on weapons.

In Michigan, gun rights activists are pushing for a change in the law that would make it possible to carry guns in worship without prior permission from a presiding official.

Mike Thiede, spokesman for Michigan Gun Owners and a member of a Baptist church, said he spoke to legislators in favor of changing the law after a church secretary was assaulted and a pastor was tied up during a robbery at another church.

"I just thought it was a terrible situation for people to be in," he said. "Outside that door, they could protect themselves but inside that door, they could be a victim."

Other crimes have prompted greater interest in new legislation. In 2009 alone, abortion doctor and usher George Tiller was shot in the foyer of his Lutheran church in Kansas; the Rev. Fred Winters was killed in his Illinois pulpit; and the Rev. Carol Daniels was found dead in her Oklahoma church.

"When you see things like that happening over and over again, churches are saying, `What are we supposed to do?"' said Jeffrey Hawkins, executive director of the Virginia-based Christian Security Network.

Hawkins' organization reported seven homicides in churches in 2010, but while he supports crime prevention techniques, Hawkins does not advocate worshippers carrying guns into church.

"You go into somewhere crowded, like a church, and there's three people who have guns out that are shooting at each other," he said. "How's the police officer going to be able to discern who's ... the bad guy?"

Laura Cutilletta, senior staff attorney of the San Francisco-based Legal Community Against Violence, said many states remain silent on weapons and worship. But she said gun lobbyists have become more vocal advocates for permitting weapons not only in churches but in other public places, such as parking lots and bars.

"Guns don't have a place in public, especially places like churches and bars and places where a lot of people are congregating," she said. "An unintentional shooting could end up injuring many people."

Laws about weapons in houses of worship vary widely. Some states forbid firearms in religious buildings but others permit them unless a congregation has posted a sign disallowing them. Still others say they're permitted if the pastor, priest or rabbi gives the OK.

And the penalties are just as varied, with some "like a traffic ticket" and other violations considered a felony, Hawkins said.

In Virginia, carrying a gun in a house of worship is allowed unless there's a service being conducted. If there is a service, "good and sufficient reason" -- a term left undefined in the code -- is required.

"We think our law is actually broad enough that there's no great urgency to try to change it," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun rights group.

In Mississippi, several bills introduced this year to remove churches from a list of prohibited places for weapons died in committee, but at least one continues to be debated.

"It seems to me that our law that explicitly prohibits acts in a church that are perfectly legal outside the church clearly violates the First Amendment in addition to the Second," said Jeff Pittman, vice president of the Mississippi State Firearm Owners Association.

FOLLOW HUFFPOST RELIGION

By Adelle M. Banks Religion News Service The way Rev. Jonathan Wilkins sees it, members of his Baptist church in Thomaston, Ga., should have the right to carry guns into worship services to protect t...
By Adelle M. Banks Religion News Service The way Rev. Jonathan Wilkins sees it, members of his Baptist church in Thomaston, Ga., should have the right to carry guns into worship services to protect t...
Filed by Bryan Maygers  | 
 
 
  • Comments
  • 800
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Next ›  Last »  (13 total)
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SocBeat
Bald and proud
12:51 PM on 02/22/2011
Is it just me or is it bizarre, almost felliniesque, that people are actually debating about taking guns to church?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Paul Barnard
Noyce and ACS-Hach Scholar
09:37 PM on 02/21/2011
Are Baptist churches that dangerous that one needs guns since that denomination was cited in the article more than once?

Given that the reading in the Catholic church this week had to do with forgiveness and love one's enemies and turning the other cheek I guess I just can't connect the dots between forgiveness and lock and load.
photo
JimInHouston
Arma virumque cano...
07:55 AM on 02/22/2011
"I guess I just can't connect the dots between forgivenes­s and lock and load. "

Why should there be any dots to connect there?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
05:19 PM on 02/21/2011
I can see the big sign over the Church door..... " God made men,but it took Sam Colt to make all men equal".
LOL. Seriously though aren't Churches private property?. Can't each Church and it's membership decide if they want armed people in Church or not ? Why do State Legislatures need to decide?
photo
JimInHouston
Arma virumque cano...
05:53 PM on 02/21/2011
"Why do State Legislatur­es need to decide? "

State legislatures have to decide whether or not the churches HAVE any choice. In some states, the churches are automatically victim-rich zones.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
William D Simpson
09:30 AM on 02/21/2011
To the proponents of gun controll, and those who say that guns kill people. I have a question for you:
Do pencils misspell words? I think not.

Therefore, I would like to suggest that guns are not the issue at hand, but rather, it is the person behind the gun who is guilty of killing other person.
10:42 AM on 02/21/2011
In those frequent cases of toddlers killing themselves or their siblings with a gun, it is indeed unfair of us to blame the gun. It is clearly the toddler "behind the gun" who is guilty. Thank you for that welcome, and original, clarification.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
05:07 PM on 02/21/2011
I would suggest keeping guns away from toddlers. along with car keys, knives and scissors and pit bulls..
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
10:41 PM on 02/20/2011
These types of policies speak more to what people truly worship versus what they profess to believe.
11:18 PM on 02/19/2011
I'm for small atomic weapons in church, especially in Texas.
01:18 PM on 02/20/2011
Mani--thank you for verifying that you are a civilian disarmament advocate
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
enlightened45
06:01 PM on 02/19/2011
I respect christianity, just not the people who practice it....

Thanks to Mark Twain......
01:20 PM on 02/20/2011
E45--then we are even--I have little respect for "progressive" that advocate the violation of the Constitutional/civil rights of others
01:40 PM on 02/20/2011
To which "progressive" are you referring, specifically?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
Olderandwiser55
getting older and wiser....
12:55 AM on 02/22/2011
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Doane
The religious right is neither
02:59 PM on 02/19/2011
And Jesus said: Render unto God what is God's and to Smith & Wesson what is Smith and Wesson's...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Doane
The religious right is neither
02:56 PM on 02/19/2011
Guns and churches. What a wonderful combination. Is this a great country or what?
photo
StevieRayB
Occupy the Future
08:08 AM on 02/19/2011
Houston Texas, Reported by Greg Groogan, 7/7/2010
A decade and a half later roughly 400,000 Texans have concealed carry permits. What they do not have is the rapidly-rising violent crime rate that preceded passage of the law.

Since 1994, the amount of murders and other violent crimes in Texas has actually decreased, despite the fact that there are six million more people living in the state now than there were 15 years ago.

In 1994, there were 129,838 violent crimes reported in the state with 2,022 murders.
In 2008, the total amount of violent crimes had fallen to 123,564 with 1,374 homicides.

...Republican State Senator Dan Patrick of Houston believes that concealed carry deserves a solid share of the credit.

"When citizens are armed, crime goes down," says Patrick.

Those who claim opposition to gun control can be easily lumped into racial, political and gender groups, probably never met State Representative Senfronia Thompson. "I wanted to feel at least I had a fighting chance and have a weapon on hand," says Thompson.

As an inner city Democrat, she supported concealed carry in 1995 and believes it has proven its worth as a deterrent.

"We can't measure how many people made the decision not to commit a crime, but I would imagine it's a significant number of people," said Thompson.

That is why supporters of the law believe those who carry may actually be protecting those who do not.
11:25 AM on 02/19/2011
Supporters believe those who carry may be protecting those who do not, because, even though
they can't measure how many people made the decision not to commit a crime, they would imagine it's a significant number of people? That's an airtight case for gun carry if I've ever heard one.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mabinog
My micro-bio is a desolate wasteland
10:25 PM on 02/18/2011
considering the history of the right wing burning, blowing up churches and shooting doctors in them maybe it is a good idea.....
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
califson
Love my country, ashamed of my government
02:02 PM on 02/18/2011
More and more churches are coming under attack in this country. That is a sad but true fact. Many houses of worship have trained officers of the law in attendence. Our church has at least 3 who form a "Security Team" along with other men in good standing. These men are trained and have every right to carry a fire arm on their person. We do have the second amendment that assures us the right to bear arms, and violence against churches must be addressed by protection of the body of members.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
bgofca
04:25 PM on 02/18/2011
the most hate i have ever witnessed has been in and by churches. there are some good christians, but a lot of the churches policies are hateful, cruel and evil.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
califson
Love my country, ashamed of my government
07:09 PM on 02/18/2011
bgofea, Sorry you have been hurt. I dont know what kind of church that could be, but the only policy a Christian church has is to worship and honor our Lorrd Jesus Christ by living the way he instructed. There can be no hate, cruelty or evil in that. There are millions of church bodies who display Christ in their actions. A church is not a building, but the fellowship of the believers. I pray you find the right one.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
enlightened45
06:03 PM on 02/19/2011
You might have a case if you had, instead, addressed the violence that good church people have perpetrated on others for the last many centuries.....
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
liberal123
06:17 AM on 02/18/2011
Verily I say unto you: If someone strikes you on the right cheek, draw your heater and cap him.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael Doane
The religious right is neither
02:57 PM on 02/19/2011
Well said. Love it.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
revko
10:47 PM on 02/17/2011
Mia Maxima Glock
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
07:51 PM on 02/17/2011
We have never had this problem here in Florida.  There is no law barring licensed gun carriers from entering a house of worship whether during, before or after any service.  I haven't noticed any "No Guns" signs on church doors either.  Maybe that's why I have never read of a church shooting in my state either.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
WSAY
Res ipsa loquitur
09:42 AM on 02/18/2011
Now you have:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/198837
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
11:55 AM on 02/18/2011
Using an example of a person who is charged with "malicious wounding, shooting into an occupied vehicle, shooting from a vehicle, use of a firearm in the commission of a felony and possession of a firearm as a convicted felon" is hardly an effective counter argument to the claim that licensed gun carriers would endanger safety, since one who has been convicted of a felony can not legally possess a gun, let alone obtain a license to carry one. I suppose it does somewhat refute the claim about a church shooting however, even thought the shooting occured outside the church.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
06:06 PM on 02/19/2011
While the perp was arrested in Florida the shooting occurred in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
Nice try, though!