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Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era


First Posted: 06/22/11 03:49 PM ET Updated: 08/22/11 06:12 AM ET

American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that stock prices in some socialized countries, relative to themselves and adjusted for inflation, have done considerably better than those in the U.S over the last two and a half decades.

Specifically, during the twenty five years after Ronald Reagan took office -- a pro-market honeymoon that Ryan Chittum of the Columbia Journalism Review this week termed "the ascent of laissez-faire economic policies" -- French stock prices have performed significantly better than Americans ones, according to the report by Jon Bakija, Adam Cole, and Bradley Heim.

A further examination of the 39-year period extending from the end of the Nixon administration until 2008 shows the Swedish economy, known for its high taxes and heavy regulation, growing at a significantly higher rate than the US.

The authors conclude that big government might not actually stand in contradiction to a productive economy: "Countries with typically high levels of government involvement in the economy, such as Sweden, Denmark and Canada, do not appear to have experienced stifled economic growth relative to countries where government involvement is more limited, like the US," the report says.

With bastions of socialism -- Sweden Canada and France -- outpacing American market prices, does this mean it's time for Wall Streeters to start calling croissants "Freedom bagels?" Probably not.

According to Jacob Funk Kirkegaard, a research fellow specializing in European economies at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, the disparity between the American and European markets might have more to do with the period in question than governmental forces.

"In 1981, [Francois] Mitterand was elected president of France, and the first thing he did was to nationalize a bunch of French businesses and most of the banking system," Kirkegaard explained. "But going forward, France has moved quite dramatically towards a market-oriented economy, though not anywhere near the scope of market and economic freedom as perceived in the U.S."

If Swedish and French markets have shown considerable strength compared to American ones, Kirkegaard posited that "these countries benefited from a more rapid shift to a market economy than in the U.S. over this period. The starting point was much more hostile. That’s what you see in the growth."

That said, Kirkegaard also dismissed the traditional American capitalist contention that socialism is bad for market growth: "A lot of the finger-pointing we do at these countries is totally misleading. It's a myth."

Kirkegaard says that many socialized governments provide critical support for business growth, including first class infrastructure built by the public sector, retraining of workers and public education systems that result in better-prepared workforces, comparative to the US. "There are a lot of areas where the role of government is a benefit for the businesses in these countries."

"The idea that they are socialists and condemned to living in these bread bin-style housing complexes is illusional," he said. "It's ideological slander."

Compare the stocks of Japan, France, and U.S., or get the report here:

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American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that st...
American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that st...
American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that st...
American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that st...
 
 
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Wong23
Card-carrying Progressive
03:00 PM on 06/24/2011
Socialism works and the vast majority of people in socialist nations are much better off as a result.

We will get there, eventually.
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Catriona
Wha daur meddle wi me?
12:17 PM on 07/05/2011
Good luck to you, Wong23.

Sharing basic responsibilities frees up people to concentrate their time and energies on being productive.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Dosadi
Political agnostic
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Hoodoo X
tanstaafl
04:53 PM on 06/23/2011
It isn't just that the Swedish and Canadian governments are more socialistic than the US.  It could also be because their populations are so much more diverse.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
tomdavis
08:11 PM on 06/23/2011
You forgot the the little smiley face to show that you're kiddding. Just in case you're not kidding, Sweden is much less diverse than the US. I've been there many times. Over 90% of the population are ethnic Swedes and Finns. All minorities combined are less than 10% of the Swedish population. I'm not sure about Canada, but I think it's about 80% European decendants.
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Catriona
Wha daur meddle wi me?
12:26 PM on 07/05/2011
Tom, ethnic diversity simply doesn't matter. I work with people who have to come to the UK from as far away as Japan, Pakistan, Mexico, the US, Italy, Argentina, France, and Estonia. We all well work together and are productive.

My neighbours are English, Scottish (from Scotland), Pakistani, Indian, various African and Caribbean countries, and from all over the EU. We get on just fine.

I'm an immigrant from the US, daughter of a French (Breton) mother and a Scottish father, married to a white Englishman. We get along just fine.

Perhaps if you got rid of this hyphenated American nonsense and started thinking of each other as AMERICANS, just Americans, and focused on what you all have in common you would be better.
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Holymolly
Emotionally intellingent
11:27 PM on 07/07/2011
Just more civilized.
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bholesurfers
Charlie don't surf!!!
04:45 PM on 06/23/2011
Goes to show regulation and socialism works and is cheaper for the country in the long run. Without regulations we get ENRON and the thugs that ran the scheme.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Eric Blankenburg
12:56 PM on 06/23/2011
I've been to Sweden in the last few years. It's not the same country that it was in the 1960s.

According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, America has the most progressive tax system in the developed world and also the highest corporate income tax rates.

The top 10% in America earn 33.5% of the income, but pay 43.5% of the taxes, which is a ratio of 1.35. Sweden has one of the least progressive tax systems in the world. In Sweden, the top 10% earn 26.6% of the income, but only pay 26.7% of the taxes -- a ratio of about 1. Other ratios for what the top 10% pay versus earn: France: 1.1, Germany: 1.07, Canada: 1.22...

Yes, Sweden has a big government, but average people in Sweden pay a much larger share of the bill than they do in the United States. The same is true of Germany, France, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, etc. -- according to OECD, all have far less progressive tax systems than the U.S.

With regards to corporate taxes, American's combined Federal and State corporate tax rate is 39.2% -- the highest in the developed world. Sweden's is 26.3%, which is right in the middle.

The America left has their head stuck in the 1960s. The world has changed dramatically in the last 50 years. America is one of the only countries going in the wrong direction. We've seen the results.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MBinNYC
01:51 PM on 06/23/2011
You state the corporate tax rate but not the actual rate payed. The US provides more loophole than anywhere else. What did GE pay in actaul taxes?
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
03:15 PM on 06/23/2011
Zip. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Zero.

Your turn. What did Exxon pay? (this is fun!)
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Eric Blankenburg
03:16 PM on 06/23/2011
America also has one of the most complicated tax systems in the world, over 8,000 pages long, which drives up the cost of determining what taxes one has to pay. Americans spend about $500 billion a year just to figure out what taxes they owe. That's enough to run GM, Ford, and maybe Chrysler put together. It's crazy stupid.

Sure, politically favored companies who can afford to make the right campaign contributions and hire the right lobbyists can get away without paying much. Obama's buddies over at GE are a good example. But other companies get screwed.

This is the problem.

The answer is to get rid of most tax deductions and dramatically lower tax rates. This would vastly simplify the tax system and encourage investments in innovation and productive capacity.

Obama's deficit commission proposed to do just that. Unfortunately, Obama didn't have the vision, real-world experience, or cajones to promote it. How did the no-nothing left treat Obama's deficit commission proposal? With demagoguery as usual. Yes, some ultra-partisans like Hanity on the so-called "right" did the same thing. They all make me sick.

From the government monopoly schools, to unsustainable entitlement programs, to corporate welfare, to the federal tax system, America's system is very, very sick. Most people understand this, yet few politicians have the courage to do something about it.

It's doesn't bode well for our future.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Robert SF
06:19 PM on 06/23/2011
Please stop spreading the fiction about high corporate taxes. We all know by now that the largest corporations pay less than 10% and many times pay nothing.

Anyway, yes, it's no longer the 60s. If you look over the past 50 years, you'll notice a pattern. The US has gotten more and more hardcore capitalist, to the point where towns are privatizing their parking meters, fercryinoutloud, while the other developed countries have embraced what we would call "socialism" more and more. And as that has taken place, the US has fallen from leading the world in every quality-of-life measure, while other developed countries took the lead from us.

And so what if our tax system is "progressive?" Of what use is a few extra dollars per paycheck? They won't buy me health care, housing, education, retirement, nor will they buy me a safety net if I can no longer work.
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joeisright
Semper Fi
12:44 PM on 06/23/2011
It’s well known that an increase in taxes on an activity results in less of that activity. This is because taxes make an activity cost more. Therefore, a sure way for government to reduce income producing activity, is to increase income taxes. And a sure way for government to reduce investment activity is to increase taxes on investment profits, a.k.a. capital gains. Less income and less investment means a slower economy.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Scribe57
It would take too long to explain.
03:13 PM on 06/23/2011
Except that the Bush tax cuts didn't do anything to stimulate anything, except the hoarding of wealth by the top 2%, who have done very well. 

Your argument, considering the results we have seen from tax cuts, is irrational.
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
03:16 PM on 06/23/2011
Then we would have a booming economy with full employment, thanks to Bush! Where is the flaw in your argument?
04:54 PM on 06/23/2011
He has no flaw he is Rush Limbaugh robot
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Vic22
"I write to make it right, don't like what I see"
12:04 PM on 06/23/2011
Hmm, countries that have decided that everyone is in it together as a nation, do better as a nation, than a country that measures it citizens right to basic human rights by their economic output? Whodathunkit?
11:20 AM on 06/23/2011
The only way to sustain an economy is to reduce wealth disparities. Most of Europe has learned this lesson. In the Unitied States, the Salivating Lust of RAVENOUS GREED of our Billionaire Bullies have sentenced us to decline and misery.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
NYCBri
11:25 AM on 06/23/2011
This same problem dates back to ancient Sumeria. The wealthy became too powerful and the poor farmers owed so much money that they couldn't ever get out of debt. It ruined the economy and everytime a new King attained power they always abolished the current debts owed by the people to the rich. Generally made the new king very popular too.

It seems human being never learn this fundamental lesson that the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is a bad thing and policies must be instituted to prevent it.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
JohnGault3
A Nation Gone to Pot
03:14 PM on 06/23/2011
By the way, the two things they do here all the time is play the race card anytime you blame Owebama for something and they all hate Fox News. Drives them crazy.You will just have to get used to it as their heads explode. Oh yeah, they also love Jon Stewart who claims to be funny, and a guy named Rachel Maddow.
11:19 AM on 06/23/2011
Socialism steals money from the earner and redistributes the wealth. Big government is why this country is broke. I believe in the famous quote that " The governmemnt that governs the best governs the least". Look at our energy situation here in the U.S. We have abundant natural resources, yet we depend on countries that hate us for our energy. Lots of good paying energy jobs would turn this government run economy around. Free market is the best sytem and it has not been completely freed up in a long time. Just keep begging the giant money hogging federal government for more stupid subsidies and this nation will soon end up in bankruptcy. Look at what is happening in Greece right now. Any simple person can discern that big government caused their financial woes. We spend more on education these days and
produce less than we ever have as a nation. Currently there are more people employed by the government than by manufacturing. Just like Greece. Get the picture.
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MarsAmbassador
Per angusta ad augusta
12:37 PM on 06/23/2011
I believe that you have most, if not all of your facts and definitions wrong. And clearly you know NOTHING about the situation in Greece. My suggestion to you is to turn off FOX News and actually get more than one point of view. Preferably a point of view based in fact and not a diatribe spewed by an ideologue with a not-so-hidden agenda.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Terrible Towel
Proud to be Independent!
03:07 PM on 06/23/2011
This country is broke because it's run by a bunch of greedy, entitled people across the board.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
IntelligentDiscussion
I chase the truth, not ideology.
10:25 AM on 06/23/2011
Stocks go up an down for a variety of reasons, each specific to issues mostly in that country. It's a fairly hard to say "look the stocks went up here and they have a bigger government!".

I would have to see the economic evidence, but if anyone ever had a logics class, correlation does not mean causation.
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
10:44 AM on 06/23/2011
So rate of growth isn't a correlator?
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MarsAmbassador
Per angusta ad augusta
12:38 PM on 06/23/2011
Have you ever heard of the word 'pattern'? How about 'time'?
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
10:20 AM on 06/23/2011
Hey! our country is way bigger and we have more wicked rich people who want things to stay exactly the way they are. They form "think tanks" and "education and research institutes" that dispense information about policy directly to our representatives. Don't get fooled by those danm socialists, after all they are all communists! FREE MARKET! No Middle Class! rah rah
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Holymolly
Emotionally intellingent
11:51 PM on 07/07/2011
Just fanned you on the avatar. Is that a chicken without a head? Lols.....splendid!
nothingchanges
too soon old, too late smart
10:17 AM on 06/23/2011
There was a time, in the U.S.'s not too distant past, where we were the most productive Nation in the world. Now we are the biggest debtor nation in the world. What changed?

Our leaders.

At one time, they worked for our best interest, the people that voted them into office.

Now they work for corporate money, because that's how they get into office, and get re-elected.

Given Citizens United it now seems corporate money has purchased the Judiciary branch of our Federal Government as well. It already purchased the Administrative and Legislative branches. Three for three, they got what they paid for.

"Trickle down economics" worked.......................for about 5% of our people. That's what it was designed to do, and it accomplished it's mission very well. They now "own" this country, and our entire political process, lock, stock, and barrel.

Government by corruption. This is what it looks like, and this is what it does, and that's why the United States is falling behind, and will continue to do so until the American people take back what we used to have.

Representative Government, for the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE.
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
10:27 AM on 06/23/2011
They make it sound so simple. "Business in America needs to be FREE! Regulations are BAD!" so we vote for people who proudly remove regulations. And just like what took us into the first great depression, lack of reasonable regulations today took us into the second great depression. What's reasonable? Well, first, maybe we shouldn't let the top 2% decide that? Even Warren Buffett admits it's whack - one of the few.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Trittydi
Special on pap smears at Walgreen's this week ....
03:10 PM on 06/23/2011
They lie as easily as they breath.
*
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Buster Nitchski
We wanna ride without being hassled by the man
02:22 PM on 06/24/2011
Greenspan believed so whole-heartedly that the 'markets know what's best for themselves' that he supported not criminalizing fraud or manipulation on Wall St. He bailed in '06 right before everything went down because he saw it coming. The derivitives markets, with its instruments backed by bad housing loans, went down and of course caused the mess we're still in today. All because there was no regulation and most people didn't know anything about derivitives (as they were set up that way....). To this day, they are still unregulated?!!?!! Until they are, this scenerio WILL repeat itself.....
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ScreenParty
My other micro-bio was better...
08:31 AM on 06/23/2011
"Countries with typically high levels of government involvement in the economy, such as Sweden, Denmark and Canada, do not appear to have experienced stifled economic growth relative to countries where government involvement is more limited, like the US,"

I wonder why? Hmm... could it be because in the US, most of the wealth has been flowing into the pockets of a very small, but very well connected group of oligarchs? I bet if Russia was also in the comparison you would see a similar thing. Russia's big push for capitalism also led to the creation of wealthy oligarchs.

Very little real growth can be experienced in this kind of environment. That is why the government absolutely has a role to play in keeping the economy healthy. Concentration of wealth leads to poverty for the masses, not some magical voodoo "trickle down" effect.

I have said it before, and I will say it again.

The only thing that trickles down from the wealthy is the sweat they leave behind on the tanning bed at the country club.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
omnioasis
10:28 AM on 06/23/2011
because their popultaion is 1 tenth of ours. not to mention those countries listed have half the corp tax we have. Why do you think our market is heavily invested in europe now.You keep blaming the rich for what the govt does. i do not pay taxes to wall st or any rich person,i pay them to the govt. Thank god the rich pay the taxes they do ,without them their would be no social or entitlment programs. Maybe its about time we get the 48%who dont pay taxes to contribute.
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
10:42 AM on 06/23/2011
A few not so's in your argument. At least one is: who pays into Social Security? we all do, but not on the portion of your reported income over $90000. We know the Republicans don't think $250000 is a high income, as we heard when we wanted to tax billionaires. So, $90k is pretty low.

I do not understand your reference to population.

And the canard about 48% not paying taxes - where does that twaddle come from?
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ScreenParty
My other micro-bio was better...
01:41 PM on 06/23/2011
As NHGranite said... your post is full of half-truths and blatant falsehoods.

Population. Germany is not 10 percent of the population of the US. France is not 10 percent. Falsehoods and a red herring argument. What does it prove? Nothing. Yes, Canada is only 10 percent of the population of the US, but so what? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Do you really believe that the USA has HIGH corp taxes? Well, if you do, then you either work for a right-wing propaganda institute and are paid to pollute blogs with falsehoods, or you really are that gullible. Stop listening to Limbaugh. Stop listening to Hannity. For that matter, stop listening to the right-wing and listen to the economists who are TELLING US that the tax burden on businesses right now is at historic lows. They pay almost nothing, and are allowed to avoid paying taxes because of right-wing-engineered loopholes in the tax code that lets them offshore their profits and claim their expenses.

Finally, the bit where you pay homage to rich people shows your true colors. Go worship at the altar of the rich if you want, but you are not going to find many people here to sympathize with you.
08:16 AM on 06/23/2011
Of course they've outperformed the U.S. since the age or Reagan. It's primarily because no civilized country in the world has the contigent of der@.nged right-wingers that we have in this country, so they are actually able to govern smartly and enact good policy.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
omnioasis
10:32 AM on 06/23/2011
The last three years are a example of why we are at where we are at. Democrats love blaming everyone else, is there anything a dem is accountable for? You would think republicans have been running the nation for 200 years with their blame games. Cahnge is coming in 2012 for sure, lets just hope our nation can survive to then.
10:47 AM on 06/23/2011
Actually, your comment is an example of why we're where we're at. I didn't say anything about Democrats or Republicans first of all. This country has been on a right-wing trajectory since 1980, hence, the age of Reagan. That is the issue. Leftist policies dominated nation from the late 30's through the 70's, and that was the most prosperous period with the most growth because of it. The "change" we need is to push the country back center-left, so that we can have growth and shared prosperity again. There is not a civilized country in this world that has right-wingers that are as far fetched as the ones in this country, at least not in great enough numbers to have any political power. You have to look to places like Lybia and Saudi Arabia for parallels.
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NHGranite
Killer Koala escapes diner, eats shoots & leaves
03:14 PM on 06/23/2011
This argument works if you are under 20 only because you can't remember too far back. Let's count up the years of Rep administrations v Dem time in office. Then count up how many years and millions were spent on bogus stunts, like impeachment, and tell me where your money went.
06:49 AM on 06/23/2011
when the ceos are robbing the company why would you expect stock prices to rise.... the money is skimed off by a hand full at the top...