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Australia Veil Law Targets Muslim Women

By ROD McGUIRK   07/10/11 09:25 AM ET   AP

CANBERRA, Australia -- Muslim women would have to remove veils and show their faces to police on request or risk a prison sentence under proposed new laws in Australia's most populous state that have drawn criticism as culturally insensitive.

A vigorous debate that the proposal has triggered reflects the cultural clashes being ignited by the growing influx of Muslim immigrants and the unease that visible symbols of Islam are causing in predominantly white Christian Australia since 1973 when the government relaxed its immigration policy.

Under the law proposed by the government of New South Wales, which includes Sydney, a woman who defies police by refusing to remove her face veil could be sentenced to a year in prison and fined 5,500 Australian dollars ($5,900).

The bill – to be voted on by the state parliament in August – has been condemned by civil libertarians and many Muslims as an overreaction to a traffic offense case involving a Muslim woman driver in a "niqab," or a veil that reveals only the eyes.

The government says the law would require motorists and criminal suspects to remove any head coverings so that police can identify them.

Critics say the bill smacks of anti-Muslim bias given how few women in Australia wear burqas. In a population of 23 million, only about 400,000 Australians are Muslim. Community advocates estimate that fewer than 2,000 women wear face veils, and it is likely that even a smaller percentage drives.

"It does seem to be very heavy handed, and there doesn't seem to be a need," said Australian Council for Civil Liberties spokesman David Bernie. "It shows some cultural insensitivity."

The controversy over the veils is similar to the debate in other Western countries over whether Muslim women should be allowed to wear garments that hide their faces in public. France and Belgium have banned face-covering veils in public. Typical arguments are that there is a need to prevent women from being forced into wearing veils by their families or that public security requires people to be identifiable.

Bernie noted that while a bandit disguised with a veil and sunglasses robbed a Sydney convenience store last year, there were no Australian crime trends involving Muslim women's clothing.

"It is a religious issue here," said Mouna Unnjinal, a mother of five who has been driving in Sydney in a niqab for 18 years and has never been booked for a traffic offense.

"We're going to feel very intimidated and our privacy is being invaded," she added.

Unnjinal said she would not hesitate to show her face to a policewoman. But she fears male police officers might misuse the law to deliberately intimidate Muslim women.

"If I'm pulled over by a policeman, I might say I want to see a female police lady and he says, 'No, I want to see your face,'" Unnjinal said. "Where does that leave me? Do I get penalized 5,000 dollars and sent to jail for 12 months because I wouldn't?"

Sydney's best-selling The Daily Telegraph newspaper declared the proposal "the world's toughest burqa laws." In France, wearing a burqa – the all-covering garment that hides the entire body except eyes and hands – in public is punishable by a 150 euro ($217) fine only.

The New South Wales state Cabinet decided to create the law on July 4 in response to Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione's call for greater police powers. Other states including Victoria and Western Australia are considering similar legislation.

"I don't care whether a person is wearing a motorcycle helmet, a burqa, niqab, face veil or anything else – the police should be allowed to require those people to make their identification clear," State Premier Barry O'Farrell said in a statement.

The laws were motivated by the bungled prosecution of Carnita Matthews, a 47-year-old Muslim mother of seven who was booked by a highway patrolman for a minor traffic violation in Sydney in June last year.

An official complaint was made in Matthews' name against Senior Constable Paul Fogarty, the policeman who gave her the ticket. The complaint accused Fogarty of racism and of attempting to tear off her veil during their roadside encounter.

Unknown to Matthews, the encounter was recorded by a camera inside Fogarty's squad car. The video footage showed her aggressively berating a restrained Fogarty and did not support her claim that he tried to grab her veil before she reluctantly and angrily lifted it to show her face.

Matthews was sentenced in November to six months in jail for making a deliberately false statement to police.

But that conviction and sentence were quashed on appeal last month without her serving any time in jail because a judge was not convinced that it was Matthews who signed the false statutory declaration. The woman who signed the document had worn a burqa and a justice of the peace who witnessed the signing had not looked beneath the veil to confirm her identity.

Bernie, the civil libertarian, said the proposed law panders to public anger against Muslims that the case generated on talk radio and in tabloid newspapers, which itself is a symptom of the suspicion with which immigrants are viewed.

Muslims are among the fastest-growing minorities in Australia and mostly live in the two largest cities, Sydney and Melbourne. There are many examples to suggest they are not entirely welcome.

Muslim and non-Muslim youths rioted for days at Sydney's Cronulla beach in 2005, drawing international attention to surging ethnic tensions. Proposals to build Islamic schools are resisted by local protest groups. The convictions of a Sydney gang of Lebanese Muslims who raped several non-Muslim women were likened by a judge to war atrocities and condemned in the media.

In 2006, then-Prime Minister John Howard published a book in which he said Muslims were Australia's first wave of immigrants to fail to assimilate with the mainstream.

Government leaders have also condemned some Muslim clerics who said husbands are entitled to smack disobedient wives, force them to have sex and for suggesting that women who don't hide their faces behind veils invite rape.

"I wouldn't like to go and say this is Muslim bashing," said Ikebal Patel, president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, of the proposed New South Wales laws.

"But I think that the timing of this was really bad for Muslims," he said.

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CANBERRA, Australia -- Muslim women would have to remove veils and show their faces to police on request or risk a prison sentence under proposed new laws in Australia's most populous state that have ...
CANBERRA, Australia -- Muslim women would have to remove veils and show their faces to police on request or risk a prison sentence under proposed new laws in Australia's most populous state that have ...
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03:50 AM on 07/15/2011
Doug Sandlin; am I to understand you don't believe this, or you have some sort of sympathy for these animals?

Here's several real overviews of muslims in Sweden:
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-in-sweden-and.html
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/09/muslims-rule-major-swedish-city.html
http://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/muslim-immigration-killing-sweden/
http://www.wordsandwar.com/2007/07/17/swedens-big-problem/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

And it goes on and on and on. Let these scum into your country and watch your beautiful land go to $#!t, your beautiful women get raped, while they take your handouts with one hand and steal from you with the other. Why would anyone in their right mind allow this to happen to their own country? Beautiful Sweden and its people will NEVER recover from this, this is permanent and ongoing damage that will never stop until these maggots ruin the country. That or the Swedish people could sprout some balls and send them back to whence they came.
03:41 PM on 07/15/2011
Doug Sandlin is a professional mslm propagandist. He wants this S#¤% to spread and rule.
03:39 AM on 07/15/2011
Government leaders have also condemned some Muslim clerics who said husbands are entitled to smack disobedient wives, force them to have sex and for suggesting that women who don't hide their faces behind veils invite rape.

There it is in the third last paragraph of this article, READ IT.

I still disagree with you, Muslim women did not come from all over the globe. The reason for the large population of Muslims and Islamics is because they practiced polygamous marriages (men had many wives) which is illegal in the U.S. and other countries.

I don't have to learn about the veil because I am not Muslim or Islamic.
04:24 PM on 07/14/2011
Good!!
Perhaps the rest of Islam will then finally follow these tragic, brainwashed, enslave women victims into the same light that will finally fall on their freed faces (and basic identities as individual human beings).

Expect the so called Western 'Liberals' to moan though.
04:26 AM on 07/13/2011
This is what is waiting to happen where ever that type of thought spreads. Radicalization follows naturally as part of the recipe.

BBC - Generation Ji_had - Ep1 - (Part 1 of 6)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPpdhdcWIHo
04:18 AM on 07/13/2011
Doug:

1- Tahir-ul-Qadri and sufism are not main stream islm.

2- Tahir-ul-Qadri At 4:27 in your link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb-kl-WEe80)
claims that the word Jihad is free from violence. That is not true you know it we know it the whole world know it. Check what the BBC has to say about that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml

Jihad

The literal meaning of Jihad is struggle or effort, and it means much more than holy war.
Muslims use the word Jihad to describe three different kinds of struggle:
* A believer's internal struggle to live out the Muslim faith as well as possible
* The struggle to build a good Muslim society
* Holy war: the struggle to defend Islam, with force if necessary

Many modern writers claim that the main meaning of Jihad is the internal spiritual struggle, and this is accepted by many Muslims.

However there are so many references to Jihad as a military struggle in Islamic writings that it is incorrect to claim that the interpretation of Jihad as holy war is wrong.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
10:15 PM on 07/12/2011
Excellent hour-and-a-half overview on the differences between mainstream Islam and the ideology of Muslim extremists, given by one of the leading experts on Islamic jurisprudence in the world, Sheikh Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2wHvCXYhx4
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
09:57 PM on 07/12/2011
I've said before that I don't condone terrorism or extremism, and I mean it.

There's no excuse for these kinds of actions by religious militants.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/12/belfast-riots-police-injured-northern-ireland-catholic-militants-_n_895447.html
04:39 AM on 07/13/2011
Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing

CAIR caught selling Jihadist & anti-Judeo-Christian books to public

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3YVv4ewdCk&playnext=1&list=PLF2AAF6D43D69A667
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
09:06 PM on 07/12/2011
Interesting hour-long documentary on Muslims in Australia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnz0pKEjAfo
04:43 AM on 07/13/2011
Never trust a person who claims to be something but actions are of a totally different nature.
Like an atheist who defends religion for example.
barrada nicto
Optimism is necessary.
04:37 PM on 07/12/2011
Cultural sensitivity is important. But it goes both ways.

There are over 50 separate muscles in the human face that we use to communication. We read intent, emotion, fear, love, hate, derision -- thousands of distinct messages by reading each others faces. These women place everyone they interact with at a disadvantage. They hide much more than their identities.

It's entirely understandable that security personnel find it necessary to peer beyond the veil.

If these women choose not to participate in ours they should remain in their closed original societies.
02:40 AM on 07/13/2011
Seems perfectly reasonable.

Thanks.
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InspiredByTruth
02:51 AM on 07/13/2011
I don't know what you're talking about and the security personnel (police) do not agree. They've proposed they be allowed to keep their veils and preserve their religious customs, and use finger print scans for identification.

http://www.vancouversun.com/Australia+fingerprint+women+veils/4989461/story.html
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Louise Aloft
08:58 AM on 07/13/2011
isn't having to give your finger prints even more intrusive?
NancyY
carpe diem!
08:08 AM on 07/21/2011
Well, get this...we in the Western world use facial identification. It's a cultural thingee we do, and if anyone wants to come here, they need to understand this. If I see someone robbing a place, what kind of identification could I give? Certainly not their fingerprints. Could you imagine the conversation..."Excuse me, I just noticed that you robbed that bank. Would you mind placing your fingers here?"
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Jericho the Red
moderate before it was called liberal.
10:11 AM on 07/12/2011
well, I may be flamed for this but to be honest.. I feel this is a a security issue..
I do not think in public places someone should be able to cover their face, male or female.
It's for security issues, I continously look at people around myself and my children. I gauge my safety and the safety of my children, If I cannot see your face, I cannot give a description of someone who may commit a crime- and once their is a loophole, it will be used by those who have no issue with using it to commit a crime.
cover your clothes, your head,I don't care- but I need to be able to identify people
my 2 cents
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InspiredByTruth
02:52 AM on 07/13/2011
So what about the bikers or joggers who wear protective masks to protect from smog? Should they be forcibly de-masked to preserve your false sense of security?
04:56 AM on 07/13/2011
Duh!
04:10 PM on 07/13/2011
It is part of our most profound instinct to distrust a person when we cannot read their face - this is whether because it's entirely impassive while the person is doing something that in normal circumstances would provoke a visible emotion or it's simply covered. If a biker entered a supermarket keeping his helmet on, it wouldn't not be illogical for people to feel threatened by this behaviour.
On the other hand, while wearing a helmet when riding a bike is mandatory it wouldn't justify refusing to remove it when you're not traveling. Tell me, if an officer stopped you for speeding, and as you gave him your license he requested you removed the helmet do you REALLY believe a person would be entitled to refuse?
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09:22 AM on 07/12/2011
The line between religion and state is the topic of another article here at huffpo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-besen/religious-right_b_890813.html

Many of the issues parallel those in this discussion, but the offending religion is Christianity. It is telling how many of the statements made there are equally apt here, and vice versa.
11:37 AM on 07/12/2011
True
We can criticize the intellect of Christianity and we make fun of it sometimes. That makes it possible to live with this believe system. As we can limit it's effect on our lives through discussion and reason. If Christianity was violent then we would have seen all those who criticize it pile dead in the streets. That is not the case.

This is so unlike the religion of peace. The actions of the mslm lady in Australia who covered here face and concealed identity while breaking the law and falsly accusing a law officer, caused a strong reaction in society. Generally this is how islm will be dealt with the rejection and dissatisfaction will rise up to a point when it will eventually smother it to down to ashes.
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06:16 PM on 07/12/2011
A good example of this is the Molly Morris Draw Mohammed Day story. Why was she threatened so severely that she had to disappear? Muslims acting according to Sharia law.

Saying negative things about Islam, Mohammed and the Koran is punishable by death. "Commanding the right a forbidding the wrong" is to be done with physical blows when necessary.

Unacceptable.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:13 PM on 07/12/2011
Thanks for posting that link.

I agreed with your post over there, strongly.

We're on exactly the same page about the dangers of attempted religious control in mainstream society; we always have been, exactly as I've always said.

The difference between Christians and Muslims in the United States, with respect to this dynamic of attempted control, is that Christians are actually and overtly engaging in it, per the article you linked to.

American Muslims don't seem to be.
05:12 AM on 07/12/2011
I guess since islm is not monolithic then the radical sects of this religion are as much mslms if not more that the none radicalized.
What did the "angel" tell the prophet?
A bunch of contradictory verses. The result is as expected a violent mess just look at their countries.
Some say Ji_had some say no, some say Hi:jab some say no. The truth is they are all right and they are all wrong.

Wake up
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:17 PM on 07/12/2011
But since the radicalized are a tiny percentage of the world's 1.6 Billion Muslims, aren't peaceful mainstream Muslims far more representative of the entire religion?

Wake Up.
04:47 AM on 07/12/2011
Things are sure not what the apologists (or victims in this case) try to tell you. In case you wonder whatopposing hijab would bring you?

http://www.timesofoman.com/innercat.asp?detail=47497&rand=

Russia:Village imam was shot dead during evening prayer in Russia's restive Dagestan region late Saturday, the region's interior ministry said.
Islamist website JamaatShariat.com, affiliated to the Caucasus Emirate group, called Akhmedov an "adversary of Islam" who opposed the wearing of the hijab in school.
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Elk Hunter 1
Organic=Profit
11:13 PM on 07/11/2011
When someone immigrates to another country they have to adopt all of the country. Not just what they want to. These women who wear the burqas or any other peice of clothing that covers their face have to follow the laws that are placed upon them. They don't get to bypass a law because their religon says it's wrong. The law of the land comes before the law of the religon. Period. You can't expect the people of Austrailia to go through the mess of making sure a woman cop is always going to be on demand if a veil wearing woman is pulled over. That is just silly.

I don't know if I agree with the terms of a year in prison, that seems a bit much, but at leat an arrest and a small fine. These police men and women are putting thier lives on the line every day.
07:24 AM on 07/12/2011
Some cultures practiced taking hallucinogenic drugs as an important part of certain religious rituals. We in the U.S. saw/see no problem in outlawing that.

Another uniquely American religious culture included an original cornerstone of promoting plural marriage. They had to give it up, denounce it, and help stamp that practice out, if their area was to be admitted into the Union as the state of Utah.

One culture ate the brains of deceased relatives until the surrounding "civilized" world pointed out that practice transmitted a deadly brain wasting disease to a great many of the participants. It's now history.

Yet other cultures continue to execute rape victims, mutilate the genitals of girls, and leave handicapped babies to die.

If individuals from any of theses or similar cultures immigrate to the U.S., they are expected to leave certain parts of their culture which are illegal, or conflict with basic American values...behind.

How is requiring all women of a certain age and status to wear an inhibiting, restrictive garment any different?
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Elk Hunter 1
Organic=Profit
08:24 PM on 07/13/2011
I don't see any problem with outlawing inhibiting garments.

I see them as a security problem for everyone around them when they wear such clothing.
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InspiredByTruth
03:09 AM on 07/13/2011
"When someone immigrates to another country they have to adopt all of the country."

Nothing could be further from the truth. For example all the Italians and Irish immigrated here during the last major emigration last century did they all completely drop all their customs? Of course not. You're also talking about a RELIGION, not a nationality. Generally religious customs are not dropped simply because a person moved to a new country, even when the religion may be unorthodox or involve "illegal" practices like Voodoo or Rastafarianism. Its widely regarded as persecution when a government enacts laws that prevents a religious group from worshiping or practicing as their doctrine dictates. Even when France enacting their no-veils law they made sure that it would not be upheld near mosques and that the police would have a 4-hour window to decide whether to issue a citation.
04:18 PM on 07/13/2011
Are you by this implying that the law they want to pass in Australia is more persecuting than the no-veil law in France?! They aren't being forced to drop the veil altogether, only to comply to the due course of order - seeing this as persecution is as narrow-minded as the people shouting "Send them all back to their own countries". Well done.
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Elk Hunter 1
Organic=Profit
08:22 PM on 07/13/2011
What I am saying is regardless of what your religous beliefs are and what they tell you to do you can't bypass law to do them.

If the law says you have to show an officer your face when he/she askes you can't say "no" becaue your religon tells you to. You will be punished for lack of a better term.

I also didn't say that you can't keep some of your culture when immigrating to a new place. There are millions who have come to America and kept their culture all while adopting ours. It is what helped make our country. They did however adopt the laws of the land that were set before them.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:11 PM on 07/11/2011
Okay, I realize this is going to sound really strange to some commenters here, but I felt it might actually be useful to hear some opinions on Muslim women and veil-wearing from ..... veil-wearing Muslim women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kBadnr2NTc
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08:34 PM on 07/11/2011
Oh by all means. We all need to hear the brainwashed point of view first- hand.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
08:52 PM on 07/11/2011
Some of us find value in letting people speak for themselves and listening to what they have to say, whether or not we end up agreeing with them.
08:36 AM on 07/12/2011
Yes. We actually DO desperately need to hear this sort of thing. We don't have to agree with it, altoplano, but don't you think it helps considerably in forming one's own opinion to the contrary, to know what the rationale is for something that appears so irrational, foreign, and threatening to so many of us? Yet, which so many otherwise normal-seeming people seem to want to embrace?

Heck, it fascinates me.
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Damn Damien
Naturally!
08:48 PM on 07/11/2011
No court of law considers testimony procured under coercion valid (especially if the testifier is under jeopardy of losing their life and limb); nor if the subject is considered emotionally unfit to provide testimony.
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Doug Sandlin
We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
09:10 PM on 07/11/2011
That doesn't seem to be the case with the women in that video.

Did you watch the video?