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Presbyterians Meet To Consider Leaving Church Over Gay Clergy, Other Issues

First Posted: 08/25/2011 7:45 pm Updated: 10/25/2011 5:12 am

Presbyterian Pastors Minneapolis
The Rev. Jane Spahr is a retired Presbyterian minister and a GLBT activist who has supported ordaining gay clergy, an issue that is driving others in church to consider defection.

Less than four months after the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) made a historic and controversial move to ordain noncelibate, openly gay and lesbian clergy, a group of more than 2,000 disaffected ministers and lay people kicked off a conference Thursday that they say could lead to a breakaway church.

The Fellowship of Presbyterians plans to continue its meeting Friday to discuss how to reform a denomination that the group's leaders say has become "deathly ill" from declining membership, theological disagreements, increased bureaucracy and, most recently, the contentious debate over gay clergy.

"We have come off track, and Presbyterians have become a declining part of American life instead of a vibrant, growing part," said the Rev. John Crosby, who sits on the steering committee for the conference held near Minneapolis. "We have tried to create such a big tent trying to make everybody happy theologically. I fear the tent has collapsed without a center."

Crosby, who leads the 5,000-member Christ Presbyterian Church in Edina, Minn., is one of about a thousand pastors at the conference. The clergy, the elders and other lay people in attendance together represent about 830 Presbyterian congregations.

Some, such as Alan Wisdom of Falls Church, Va., were spurred to come because they disagree with their denomination's new policy on gay clergy.

With that policy, "we seem to have reached a watershed in the view of many people," said Wisdom, a 54-year-old member of Georgetown Presbyterian Church in Washington, D.C. "I would like to help and support other people who are trying to be biblically faithful in this situation."

But like many other attendees, Wisdom said he "remains committed" to his local congregation -- which he said is divided on the gay clergy issue -- and he is not interested in forming a new denomination or a joining a different congregation.

"The majority of people are not interested in leaving the PC(USA), but would like to find some way that we could still be in relationship with the PC(USA) even though we find ourselves in greater tension with it," added Wisdom, who is a lay person and is not attending on behalf of his congregation.

Leaders of the conference have floated such options as creating an informal network of traditional congregations and pastors, organizing regional groups of congregations -- what the church calls presbyteries -- that would be based not on geography but on social and theological leanings, or creating a "new reformed body" -- that is, a new denomination. Any significant structural change that included staying within the 2.8-million member Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) would require approval from the denomination's General Assembly, which meets next June in Pittsburgh, and then from a vote by the individual presbyteries.

The new rules regarding gay clergy, which also apply to gay elders and deacons, went into effect in July after a majority of the presbyteries approved a change to the church's constitution in May. Presbyteries are not required to ordain gay candidates for the clergy, but the new amendment removed legal barriers to their ordination. The old text of the church's Book of Order banned noncelibate clergy who did not live "within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman." The revised Book of Order does not mention gay clergy, but no longer requires chastity for non-married clergy.

While the majority of the 173 presbyteries voted for the change, at least 72 did not. The split has left Presbyterian leaders wondering if the more conservative congregations would defect.

While all Presbyterian Church (U.S.A) congregations are affiliated on a national level, individual congregations differ widely on matters such as worship style and views on issues such as homosexuality. According to the Presbyterian News Service, about 100 congregations have defected from the denomination in recent years, many of which leaned conservative.

Anticipation of this week's conference had been building since February, when Crosby and 44 other pastors of large churches released an open letter to denominational leaders calling for change. The letter said that the gay clergy issue "masks deeper, more important divisions within the PC(USA) ... around differing understandings of Scripture, authority, Christology, the extent of salvation amidst creeping universalism, and a broader set of moral issues." Hundreds of other pastors have signed the letter since then, especially after the vote on ordaining gay clergy.

In response to this week's conference, Michael Adee, executive director of More Light Presbyterians, a Minnesota-based church group that has pushed to allow openly gay clergy, sent a letter to supporters asking them to hold the conference attendees in their prayers.

"We are praying that God's extravagant love and a 'no boundaries gospel' will inspire and inform this gathering," Adee said in an interview. He added that every Presbyterian has gay and lesbian individuals in their congregation "who worship, pray and serve alongside them. Surely we can find ways to create space at God's table for all regardless of our human differences."

The Rev. Gradye Parsons, who holds the highest elected office within the church as stated clerk of the General Assembly, declined to comment about the conference. A spokeswoman said he would speak after it was over. In a previous statement, Parsons and other denominational leaders stressed that the Fellowship of Presbyterians is one of many groups interested in changing the church.

"This is indeed a rich time of ferment and deep discernment in the Christian Church and denominations like the PC(USA)," Parsons said, urging Presbyterians "to join in prayer and conversation, vision and leadership for the church in this exciting time."

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Less than four months after the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) made a historic and controversial move to ordain noncelibate, openly gay and lesbian clergy, a group of more than 2,000 disaffected ministe...
Less than four months after the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) made a historic and controversial move to ordain noncelibate, openly gay and lesbian clergy, a group of more than 2,000 disaffected ministe...
 
 
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07:07 PM on 10/19/2011
I've been reading through some of these comments and I'm most intrigued by the comment that Gays cannot make babies therefore they cannot be Presbyterian. Although I think that Gays should be able to worship just as any man (or woman), the idea that they cannot procreate does bring up a pretty deep philosophical issue.

If certain people are genetically predisposed to have same sex relations aren't they also genetically predisposed not to make children? If this is the case, then why do Gays wanting to have children look for surrogate mother or sperm donors in order to make children?

Please understand what I'm saying...I believe Gays should be able to marry, join the military, worship as they please, etc. I also believe that Gays can make excellent parents. But if certain attributes are genetically predisposed, should these attributes be "overridden"? If so, doesn't that put the Gay community back in the position of determining whether same sex preference is genetically inclined or a choice?

Thoughts?
02:32 AM on 10/12/2011
As a child I was raised by presbyterian parents.However,in the Christian Bible,it clearly states that a minister/preacher/pastor and all deacons must be married to a wife(woman) or a husband(man),and have control of their congregation.The purpose of the Christian Bible is to teach self-control and worship of our Heavenly Father.In the latter days of humanity,in Revelations,verses specify that the Christian church will come under "strange affiliations in the spirit" and that those churches will fall under judgement.I quit attending organized religious houses of worship because of the approval of gays/lesbians ascending to the pulpit.I am a "free-born" Christian ,I don't hate homosexuals ,I find them to be quite loving and tolerant of other peoples' faults,but because of what the book of Timothy I/II states "In the Spirit of Jesus Christ"I will no longer seek a teacher or preacher who comes from organized religion.The Bible in and of itself,verse by verse,is a wise place to look for divine inspiration.It's not up to me judge.
11:03 PM on 09/24/2011
I notice that some people say what They think morality should be and usually that is the latest fad. Some others have written about Albert Camus' and Voltaire's viewpoints on morality, although they were atheists. Not a lot of people in what is supposed to be a Christian Church following the Bible have referred to the Divinely Inspired Scriptures for some insights into morality. Of course, some opine that they were written almost 2,000 years ago or more in some cases and so are "old-fashioned", but they are Divinely Inspired ! Whoever doesn't believe so should join another Club because a Christian Church follows the Bible. Leviticus 18 roundly condemns Incest, Adultery, Bestiality, and Homosexuality, among other things. St. Paul condemns many types of acts as immoral, including prostitution, adultery, and homosexuality, this last in three letters: Romans, 1st Corinthians, and 1st Timothy, and in no uncertain terms. If homosexuality is OK now, why not Incest, Bestiality, Pedophilia, Prostitution, Fornication, Adultery?? Did someone say they are not Politically Correct ...at present? Jesus said we have three enemies: the flesh, the world (with its false ideas to mislead us), and the devil. I had a great grandfather who was a Presbyterian minister, a grandfather and an uncle who were elders. What would they say about the abandoning of Biblical morality to embrace the world's by the Presbyterian Church in the USA ?
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:17 AM on 09/25/2011
Maybe your great grandfather, grandfather and uncle were wrong. Maybe accepting gay people and their lifestyles is just fine. Maybe the whole world doesn't believe in your "biblical morality."
09:12 PM on 09/25/2011
Most certainly the Whole World does Not accept "biblical morality". You obviously don't, and that's your right. But the article and my comments are concerning a church that has a Christian and biblical foundation, therefore your observations are not to the point. Why are you intervening then?
03:06 AM on 09/25/2011
camus was one the greatest moral philosophers of all time - his book 'the plague' is considered by most to be the best argument out there for the existence of morality in a world without god. why not at least think about what he's trying to say? god made him after all.
09:08 PM on 09/25/2011
Well, now you're talking about Atheists, but the article is about Presbyterians who have other moral philosophers or theologians, so why should they take Camus into consideration since he didn't share their world-view? God made many people such as Stalin and Hitler and Nietzche and Schopenhauer and many others. If you form a club, are you going to see what opinions all sorts of philosophers had before forming your club or church when you already have clear orientations?
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11:49 AM on 09/15/2011
For goodness sake no one is born gay.
Because your a boy and happen to love the color pink, pink is one of the most prettiest colors in the world, doesn't mean you are meant to be gay though.
your a boy and think that your mom's pumps are the bomb digitty, maybe you should be a fashion designer. doesn't mean your gay.
because your a woman, who is more masculine, there are plenty of guys out there who behave feminine. doesn't mean your gay.
You might get along well or confide with the same sex more than the other, maybe you are meant to be the best of friends, cherish that friendship and move on.
And who doesn't like a good musical or to sing in a broadway play? It's fun and entertaining.
Being gay is a sexual preference, a choice.
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:18 AM on 09/25/2011
Do you have any proof that it's a only a preference? Or is this just what you'd prefer to believe?
03:10 AM on 09/25/2011
totally i was picked on a lot all throughout school. when i became sexually active in high school it was just natural for me to choose to like other guys because i was always sort of a glutton for punishment and i was excited about the chance to give the entire school one more reason to treat me like garbage.
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Cris Bessette
01:28 PM on 09/07/2011
I attended a small rural Presbyterian church for about 7 years. This gay clergy subject came up a few times. It was interesting to see how the biggest complainers were the oldest people in the church. Our representatives to the Presbytery regional meetings would come back all hot and bothered over the latest attempts to "modernize".
Basically any socially progressive theme that came up was rejected. By the time I left this church almost all the teens and young adults had left the congregation.
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joeyfoto
“Écraser l'infamie!”
10:26 PM on 09/05/2011
Factionalism is the history of Christianity, because Christians are bound together by an absurd mythology, which, if seen dogmatically, breeds irresolvable conflicts... There is an answer to that mitosis of the spirit, it is love... but the spirit of love is rare while the word "love" is everywhere.
02:04 PM on 09/06/2011
Christians have that rare quality of having the need to love you enough to tell you the truth no matter how hard you be asking us to coddle you and embrace the lies!
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joeyfoto
“Écraser l'infamie!”
08:44 AM on 09/07/2011
deegeescross wrote: "Christians have that rare quality of having the need to love you enough to tell you the truth no matter how hard you be asking us to coddle you and embrace the lies!"

I only have three things to say to that — I didn't write tow of them"

"The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind." Camus

“The less reasonable a cult is, the more men seek to establish it by force.”
 Jean-Jacques Rousseau

The Greeks have at least four words for "love." In English, we have but one word for the complex and often conflicting emotions we call "love." People call many things "love" that are not love.
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:20 AM on 09/25/2011
What you see as the truth is not what everyone sees as the truth. You're going to have to learn to accept that.
11:07 PM on 09/24/2011
The "mythology" has inspired over 2,200,000,000 people in the world, including some great minds of scientists and benefactors to humanity. The largest number of those leaders who have not embraced the "mythology" have embraced the mythology of Naziism, Fascism, and Marxist-Leninism or Communism. Millions have died thanks to those who were not "taken in" by the "mythology".
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:21 AM on 09/25/2011
2,200,000,000 people could be wrong. The majority is not always right.
03:16 AM on 09/25/2011
false dichotomy you're not a nazi or communist if you are not taken in by some mythology. and people taken in by mythologies have actually killed more people over the centuries than people not taken in by mythologies.
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rhuffie
03:53 PM on 09/05/2011
To all you literalist Christians out there:
Nobody has forced you to take a literal interpretation of the Bible. This is your choice. When you say that it isn't your idea that homosexuality is a mortal sin, you don't really hate gays, that you read it in the Bible and so it's God's word and thus true, you have avoided taking responsibility for what is YOUR PERSONAL VIEW. Many Christians subscribe to a more open and inclusive view of the world and this is OUR OPINION, which can also be supported by the Bible.
To put it another way, we have two approaches:
Those who use their hearts and minds and understanding of scripture to support an open-minded, inclusive and loving approach to being Christian.
Those who use an inflexible interpretation of the world from 2000 years ago to arrogantly support their intolerance towards divergent ways (gayness, all other world religions including many Christian - LDS, Witnesses etc) and avoid responsibility for helping seed anger and hostility among people.
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07:41 PM on 09/05/2011
Rhuffie..
Its Not about" My Personal View" anymore..
ITS ALL ABOUT JESUS AND MY FATHER (YAHWEH) NOW.

. Matthew 6:33
Seek the Kingdom of God **above all else**, and** live righteously**, and he will give you everything you need.

Ephesians 5:3-6

3-Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God's people
4-Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes--these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
5-You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world
6****Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him****

Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ

Rhuffie You have to Choose to either follow "YOUR OWN PERSONAL Veiw" or follow " The Word Of God"
And Who is "The Word Of God"?

John 1:1-2
1-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
2- He was in the beginning with God
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rhuffie
01:29 AM on 09/06/2011
"ITS ALL ABOUT JESUS AND MY FATHER (YAHWEH) NOW."
Yes, you think you know what God wants and you have identified your source in the texts you have lifted from a Bible. Sadly it's all you have.You have no faith in the tools God gave you...namely your brain..and your heart - there is be another way to uncover truth...it's called the world...as you move about your life, using your heart and mind, trying as hard as you can to discover truth, in humility, asking questions, listening to all, you might discover a greater insight than you will be provided by only reading the 2000 year old book. Apparently you don't believe the truths of life are embedded in each of us and so the only way to find truth is through this one book? And any hesitation, any questions, any conflicts is the devil trying to break your resolve? And as you parse your way through the scriptures in a darkened room somewhere, outside in the sunlight there is a bright new world, a world in which peoples of the world can love one another without the cultural prejudices that accompany most modern organized religions, a modern spirituality in which we can truely live the truths of the Bible, and the Koran and the Torah...in life, in ourselves and each other.
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rhuffie
01:32 AM on 09/06/2011
Of course, for me, when i read your comments is just proves my point. You subscribe to these beliefs because as you read these passages, they have meaning and align with your innermost feelings, you agree with it, the fact that you just don't like gays, the idea of gayness or the idea of "what they do together" so it has nothing to do with truth, or what God wants, it's that you are unable to tolerate this in others, and you use these passages in the Bible to escape responsibility for what is merely your personal opinion. You choose the emphasis on these passages because it fits your bigotry. If you were using your heart more and read the bible less you might start to learn a little about others and yourself.
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11:20 AM on 09/15/2011
As a christian, we are to love everyone, wrong or right, there must be peace between us. But that doesn't mean we are supposed to support the idea of being gay and proud. You are on your own on this one.
10:44 PM on 09/04/2011
It is degrading to men and women
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:23 AM on 09/25/2011
I am a woman and I do not feel degraded, so speak for yourself.
10:43 PM on 09/04/2011
About time some of the churches stand up and declare it a moral wrong.Homosexuality is a becoming now marriage and it is an insult to the marriage of man and woman
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
01:31 PM on 09/05/2011
And it is affecting you how?
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iknowscottyknows
02:52 PM on 09/07/2011
Pretending a miniscule minority's sexual behavior is important is still pretense. You know the truth, live it.
11:16 PM on 09/24/2011
That's begging the question. How does it affect me if there are homeless starving under a bridge?
11:16 PM on 09/24/2011
Marrriage has always been a social commitment between a man and (at least) one woman to procreate and raise responsibly in the natural biological union of male and female of the same species in a stable union until such time as the offspring are taken into society's care or are considered independent members of the society. The ancient homosexual Greeks married Only Women ! Every society has been that way. It is the Definition of marriage throughout history by way of fact. Property and Consent have not even been always part of the constitution of marriage in all societies.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
03:04 PM on 09/04/2011
I hope they are not, "all talk" and little "defecting". For a start on where to take your mental activity and get some ideas on what to do with it and how to use your contributions to personally benefit others (by keeping it in your own control and not giving it to others to waste, including me) by helping them gain a greater understanding of how to win Our Creator's approval visit the link below.

http://www.truechristianityevangelism.org/hell.html
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rhuffie
01:35 PM on 09/03/2011
A few days ago I added a post here:
“Too many Christians use scripture to justify their intoleranc­e and hatred. It is not that the Bible teaches them to be this way - this is the way they have chosen to interpret the Bible; this interpreta­tion is a reflection of their personalit­y way more than it is a reflection of the spiritual meaning of the Bible..."
Many people responded to this; they all pretty much verified the basic statement I make:
Christians interpret the Bible based on their personalities. Inflexible and intolerant people subscribe to an intolerant and inflexible God through their emphasis on certain parts of old and new testaments, and ignoring parts that might contradict their personal - as opposed to spiritual - opinions. To them the whole world, except for the few that they agree with, are all going to hell. More tolerant and compassionate types cannot believe in such a view, they will instead have faith in a more inclusive and loving God by emphasizing the parts of the Bible that have meaning and relevance for them.
The Presbys that want to leave the church are the former. They personally believe the homosexuality is repulsive and wrong and so they will claim such views of tolerance towards gays is unchristian. Those that wish to stay are clearly the more tolerant, compassionate and loving and therefore welcome all into their congregation.
05:58 PM on 09/03/2011
rhuf rhuf, once again it is all about what you (man) wants to believe. Christians that quote the Bible believe they are quoting the words of God, not their own. Christians are not the ones "cherry picking the Bible. I find people like you use quotes out of context and feel justified with your intolerance and hatred. Just my opinion
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rhuffie
06:59 PM on 09/03/2011
I don't hate you, I feel sorry for you. You live in a world in which a vengeful and violent God will banish and torture so many good people.
Cherry picking as you call it is for the person who chooses use their God given hearts and minds as they try and understand with humility the meaning and importance behind the words of the Bible. Many do not have enough faith in themselves, or God (we are God's creation) to do this so they fall on the totally irrational approach that says that the book is unerring - so they are stuck with the 2000 year old perspectives of the Bible as written.
According to my own theory, they have no choice in this matter, your basic personality traits dictate the spiritual path you take.
I am a very tolerant person, this is the path of humility, not judging others for their divergent ways. However, I must admit, i have a tough time with that one thing...I am intolerant of intolerance, especially in the guise of religion.
PS: where did i quote the Bible, anyway?
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him
10:56 AM on 09/04/2011
Fanned and faved old sftshoes.

What rhuffie has done is what so many faithphobes do. Start with a preconceived bias against believers. Ask as "honest" question and then use the responses(no matter what they say) to justify their foregone conclusions of "hatred and intolerance" You are so correct, what many do is play "gotcha" games by quoting scriptures and trying to catch believers in conundrums, that are usually unrelated to their original beliefs and often display a lack of theological context and understanding(which isnt their true goal in the first place) What they fail grasp is that Christians who place God's word at a premium are far less concerned with what non-believers have to say about them. As the old folks used to say those wordly detractors "dont have a heaven or hell" to put Christian in anyway.

Kudos to you for not falling for it and calling it when you see it.
11:21 PM on 09/24/2011
Read your bible if you are still a Christian and not just a member of a Presbyterian "Club". It is very clear that homosexuality is unacceptable morally, just as Adultery, Incest, Fornication, and Bestiality. Or do you believe that those are up to the individual to chose or not?
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:30 AM on 09/25/2011
To you homosexuality is immoral, to me it is not. Homosexuality hurts no one, the other behaviors you mention do. Don't you see the difference? Why are you so determined to label homosexuality as deviant behavior? It is common among many species of animals. And without your Bible, would you still call it deviant?
11:32 AM on 09/03/2011
I used to go to a Presbyterian church in Chicago. I stopped going for a couple of reasons. 1. They seemed more concerned with having a fashion show than with learning about God. and 2. They didn't teach from the Bible, but more about "feeling good about yourself".

I was not surprised when they started with the gay clergy.
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03:04 AM on 09/05/2011
Thank You For Your Honesty!
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
09:45 PM on 09/02/2011
PLEASE UPGRADE NOW ! For anyone who wants to defect there is no better time to upgrade to "true" Christianity, become a "stand alone" force for Our Creator and His Son Jesus. Get the Bible on DVD, tapes, CD collection or MP3CD and listen to it till you know it so well you can say, "No He didn't, that is not what Jesus said, He said....." or something similar. Make your life count for the best thing it can count for, helping Our Creator and His Son Jesus achieve their goals. It can be fun, no dues, no reports to fill out, just learn what is right to promote and do it as you see fit. According to Scripture Our Creator will remember all the good you do for Him (if it is really what He wants done) and reward you accordingly, (as long as you do not turn traitor and defect over to Satan's side).
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Arbutus
Ramble on.
12:31 AM on 09/25/2011
God and Satan do not exist. And the Bible is a collection of imperfect human writings.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
02:05 AM on 09/25/2011
There is a process one can use in order to gain more respect for their own self, and that is always try to think before, during and after the time when one is trying to convey a thought or idea, "Is what I am saying or writing a positively factual truth that I could prove in a court of law? How would I need to change it in order for it not to be considered un-true by any intelligent and honest listener or viewer?" If you had said, "I do not believe God or Satan exist." I would have given you a little more respect for your post, but I know you can not know what is beyond the 14 Billion Light-Years out into space that humans have looked, so I know you cannot know what is there or in my closed hand right now, so how could you KNOW if Satan or God exists?
07:57 AM on 09/02/2011
deegeescross:

"Rev, sweetheart­, the condition is based on the premise that everyone who wants to be there love God and keep His commandmen­ts. Now if you don't want to live by Gods rules and inherit life eternal then by all means keep doing what you be doing."

"Carmen God exists to be worshiped. He created man to worship Him. Now, if you don't want to serve the purpose of your creation don't get swole when He locks you out ofHis new world. "

One thing I learned along the way. Being right and on top leaves no room for love.
09:25 PM on 09/02/2011
dg be getting a whole heap of love on top and I be right pleased with myself too!
12:34 AM on 09/02/2011
Well I don't think man's law should ever overide religion. If gays want to get married. Then make a church of there own. You can't make a man that follows the bible to break his belief. If we start doing that. Then we deserve to be like sodom and gomorath.
08:51 AM on 09/02/2011
"Well I don't think man's law should ever overide religion."

Well get used to it, because in the United States it does. What is fair for everyone regardless of their religious beliefs is not the moral requirements of any one religious belief. Whether you and your's wish to welcome gay married couples or view gay marriage as a moral enterprise, would still be entirely up to you. No law is going to be passed that says your church has to marry gay couples. The constitution is all about reining in the tyranny of the majority and its priestly cohorts and giving you the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness within every reasonable limit possible. You have the freedom you have because it is assigned to you by the bill of rights and thereby the state is deprived of it. Why be in such a hurry to give away your freedom to the state in the name of your particular group's religious compulsions?
03:57 PM on 09/02/2011
when the bill of rights were made, they knew it wasn't the greatest thing and it wasn't sopose to last. it was just a start for our independence. what we have now because of free speech and right to liberty. nothing is off limits if you look at it with a certain perspective. but that leaves you open to no reasoning behind your thought. no consern about your actions. thats why america is the way it is.
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joeyfoto
“Écraser l'infamie!”
10:36 PM on 09/05/2011
warbladex1 wrote: "Well I don't think man's law should ever overide religion. If gays want to get married. Then make a church of there own. You can't make a man that follows the bible to break his belief. If we start doing that. Then we deserve to be like sodom and gomorath."

Do you really believe that in 2012... I find that remarkable.
You live as if the Enlightenment never happened.

Do you believe and follow all of the commands in the Bible?
No you don't. It is not possible because the Bible is replete with contradictions.

STOP.

I don't want to be clever. i find this post incredibly sad.
The function of religion is not to make people delusional but to help the see.
This post is depressing to me...
02:45 PM on 09/09/2011
what enlightenment....the bible? it is a book on how to save your soul. somepeople need it more than others. its contradictions are basicly made too relate to everyone. a teacher should not kill, but an exicutioner does. it gives you so many senerios, it cant help but to be contradicting. you will be judged in the end. if you can be honest with yourself, then god can be honest with you. cause sooner or later you'll figure out whats right. it might be a stranger, coworker or even god himself will show you truth. its upto you to stop and listen. god gave you a brain use it