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Class Size Fight: Debate Looms During A Year Of Overcrowding

First Posted: 10/05/2011 7:57 pm Updated: 06/12/2012 6:02 pm

NEW YORK -- Every morning at PS 148 in East Elmhurst, Queens, teacher Monique Bertolotti greets her 27 third graders, who speak English as a second language, with a reading exercise.

Classes began on Sept. 13, but because of the volume of students in her class, it was only Wednesday -- three weeks later -- that Bertolotti got to sit down with two new Colombian students, Nicole and Amy, to help them acclimate.

"Normally I would have sat down earlier to do an interview," Bertolotti said. "But there are just so many students." Her school lost $600,000 and eight teachers this year due to budget cuts.

"My situation isn't as bad as my colleagues'," Bertolotti continued. Next door, Joan Barnett has 32 third graders in a classroom without desks. "Really getting to small group instruction is harder," Barnett said.

According to the most recent national data available from the Education Department, student-teacher ratio declined from 22.3 in 1970 to 15.3 in 2008, when class sizes averaged at 20 in elementary schools and 23.4 in secondary schools.

But since then, as the recession took its toll, reports from around the country point to a surge in class sizes. A survey conducted in September by the United Federation of Teachers found a spike in class size grievances in New York City, with 6,978 classes reported as having more students than the contract allows. Even Texas, which has laws to keep class sizes down, granted more than 2,000 waivers to districts that couldn’t afford to keep the requisite number of teachers. Ruth Skow, president of McAllen, Texas's arm of the American Federation of Teachers, said one class at Memorial High School has 50 students this year. A Las Vegas elementary school kindergarten class has 41 students.

The Obama administration's jobs bill seeks to fill the gap, with $30 billion calculated to pay for 400,000 teacher jobs for a year. "Tell Congress to pass this bill and put teachers back in the classroom where they belong," Obama said in a Dallas school speech on Tuesday.

But beneath the surface of class size explosions because of budget cuts and layoffs and Obama's attempts to fix it, lies a debate about the importance of class sizes, and a move to deliberately increase them to enable investment elsewhere in education. Data-driven reformers such as Joel Klein often point to graphs that show that education expenditures -- largely personnel-based -- have ballooned as performance on exams have flat-lined. As teachers and their unions point to the importance of keeping student-teacher ratios low, reformers cite these statistics and say that unions advocate for smaller class sizes simply to retain high membership. This tension, coupled with the squeeze of budget cuts, leads some to believe that the next frontier of the national education debate will be a class size fight.

"Class size has been a sacred cow and I think we need to take it on," U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said at a March breakfast, as reported by Rick Hess, an education researcher for the American Enterprise Institute.

When asked to explain his comments further, Duncan told The Huffington Post that he'd rather have better teachers in larger classes. "My point there was that I think the quality of the teacher is so hugely important," he said. "I've said things like, give me the parent, give me an option of 28 children in a class with a phenomenal teacher or 22 children in a class with a mediocre teacher. If I was given that choice, I would choose a larger class size."

But that statement doesn’t sit well with teachers unions. "It's ridiculous to say, I'd rather have a good teacher and have that good teacher have to have a lot of kids," said Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers. "Kids need both." She described small class size as a tool teachers use, akin to a radiologist's X-ray machine.

While Duncan has little control over issues such as class size, since only 10 percent of the country's school spending comes from his office, he does have his bully pulpit. He said in a speech that he wants to "start a national conversation" about raising teacher pay. Since then, though, he has done little to clarify how that could be done when resources are scarce, except for saying it would involve "looking at how to redirect the money we are already spending." These statements taken together have led some to believe that Duncan is proposing a tradeoff of higher pay for slightly larger class sizes.

"You do the math and you see that the vast majority of our spending in education goes to staff," said Michael Petrilli, a former education government official who now leads the right-leaning Thomas B. Fordham Institute. "If you want to increase salary and benefits and keep the overall staff the same, it's impossible to do that without raising class sizes."

"It's a false choice," Weingarten said. "Pitting them against each other is saying to teachers that the only way that somebody can afford to pay you decently is if one of the tools that are really important for kids is taken away."

Queens teacher Bertolotti said she'd take smaller class sizes over increased pay. "I would rather forfeit a salary increase than increase class size because learning is greatly affected," she said.

How much does class size actually matter? The answer is complicated, and the research mixed. A 1980s Tennessee study, known as STAR, examined class size over four years and found the benefits of small class sizes to be pronounced in early years, as kids learn how to read and add, but less important in later grades. Since then, no similarly rigorous experiments have been performed.

"Where you're dramatically reducing class size, in low-advantage communities in lower grades when kids are learning things like how to read, that's been beneficial," Duncan said. "We've done it elsewhere, spent billions of dollars on class size without any demonstrable benefit. We need to talk about class size, and quality."

Duncan's statement reflects the findings of Stanford economist Eric Hanushek. "It obviously makes it easier for teachers to have fewer kids, but it doesn’t systematically mean much in terms of achievement," Hanushek said. "Having a good teacher -- as defined by student learning on tests -- matters more."

But Weingarten said the authors of those studies have never taught in public schools.

"Researchers that say that class size doesn’t matter look at market issues," she said. "Here, look at what parents are demanding. Parents demand smaller class sizes."

But Hanushek disagreed. "It's a convenient thing for unions to argue for," he said. "If you make class sizes smaller, you have to go and hire more people. If unions want to distract from any discussions about teacher quality, they'll talk about class size."

"This notion of trying to find a motive that's unrelated to teaching and learning is insulting," Weingarten shot back in response to this claim.

In the meantime, Christina Crouse in Corpus Christi, Texas, has 30 eighth graders this year. "Having more kids in the class has increased discipline issues," she said. "But I know of some people who have 40."

CORRECTION: A previous version of this piece incorrectly stated the student-teacher ratio for public schools in 2008.

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01:52 PM on 10/11/2011
Sure, just do what China does...?

I just arrived in China a month ago to teach at a public primary school. Class size is large-about 50 students per class. I teach about 700 students per week. I have personally visited many of the Chinese teachers' classrooms and, contrary to popular belief, they are creative, amazing people who try hard to teach students in creative ways. What have I learned?

1. About half the class is way behind what the teacher is teaching.

2. The teachers can't determine if the children actually understand them.

3. The teachers can't individually help all of the 25+ students who don't grasp the material.

4. The 25+ students who don't understand fall more behind, until they just give up, goof off, and eventually flunk school.

There is a real reason class sizes are kept small in the United States. After trying to teach these children in a large classroom setting, I am a huge fan of small class sizes.

Big classes reduce understanding, reduce lesson flexibility, and reduce the personalization that students really need to boost their interest and confidence in a given subject.

So we can all learn like the Chinese...but do we really want that kind of education for our children?
03:47 PM on 10/09/2011
In California thousands of teachers were hired to take advantage of the 1996 Class Size Reduction (CSR) Program. CSR provided incentives to lower class sizes to 20 students per teacher at the K-3 level. The idea, simple; a lower student/teacher ratio in the lower grades increases learning. Great idea...however, what's rarely mentioned is standards for education were being increased. Like any business, education is not immune to the conflict, confusion and stress involved with implementation of new goals. As a result of this stress and legislative posturing, the CSR Program didn't get a chance to succeed. I'm all for high educational standards, but California Legislators running for office were "one-upping" each other on the political trail. No educational goal was too high. Then, just as the dust of state standards was settling, schools were hit with another mandate…No Child Left Behind. Teachers didn't stand a chance. More paperwork and meetings removed teachers from teaching. I know what can be accomplished with a lower class size; I can dramatically raise student academic levels. CSR is now being dropped by California’s schools because of budget cuts and our class sizes rise. When a class size is above 30, one is no longer a teacher but a case worker. Class management becomes the priority. Put simply, I don’t want a pay increase. I’d like a manageable class size so I can increase learning. Kids want to learn, I want to teach so let’s hire teachers and lower class sizes.
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roaddawg31
06:15 PM on 10/09/2011
Can't hirt teachers though Michael, because there is no money. And the teachers want admin to ignore the amount of good teachers out there waiting in the wings.
06:35 PM on 10/09/2011
It's not about teachers. It's about the students and what's best for their education. Being a teacher I'm offended that you think I want my school district to ignore the hiring of good teachers. I can assure you that every administrator I've met has one goal in mind, providing highly qualified teachers and support to our charges. You might be a "HP Super User," but not so much a critical thinker.
01:28 AM on 10/11/2011
In the late 1990's, I, as seasoned teacher had the opportunity to teach (as a volunteer)
a teacher education class at a major mid-western university. Most of the students were in their Senior year and were preparing to teach. I was shocked at their lack of knowledge of the subject matter they were to teach. Their reaction to creative and basic education methodology lessons were not equal to my previous high school students. Most failed the basic MEAP state testing their future students would take.
That same year the issue of the "Dumbing down of College Students" in general, was
the hot issue of the news. Not to much later, President G.W.Bush, Jr. forced into law the " No Child Left Behind Act". Many of these new type teachers could follow the rote
test taking task. Older education teachers skills became less valuable. I'm sure the
new teachers out there "in the wings" aren't as good as many might think.

Class size makes a big difference in your child's knowledge and growth. Education
'sucks' now that it is a big business enterprize.Cut out the big adminstrative positions that do really nothing and put money into school budgets, as a first start.
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raggedhand
02:30 PM on 10/09/2011
Of course having a good teacher matters more than having a bad teacher. That's a statement that deserves a hearty round of "duh". But even the best of teachers can only do so much with the time and the resources they have. Good teachers can be overloaded and the result will be the same as if they were bad at their job.
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roaddawg31
05:02 PM on 10/09/2011
Yes, it's a "duh" comment (you'd rather have a good teacher than a bad teacher). I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it.

THEN WHY IS IT that we have this situation in EVERY SCHOOL IN EVERY DISTRICT IN AMERICA... where GOOD teachers (many of which are laid-off) are left to linger unemployed, or subbing... while we have a teacher who IS NOT as good who has a secure job for however long she/he wants it. (BTW, this is NOT to say all tenured teachers are bad. But YOU HAVE TO ADMIT (if you are objective), that you know of a situation like this.

And the fact of the matter is that nothing can be done about it. THAT'S WHAT IS WRONG IN EDUCATION.
07:02 PM on 10/09/2011
yawn - another "OMG IT'S THE UNION'S FAULT!!!!" post.

never mind that it was those same unionized teachers who helped make the American educational system a really good one.

Once.
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raggedhand
02:16 PM on 10/09/2011
In high schools, class size doesn't matter as much as teacher load or the total number of students. Actually, it's a red herring number that distracts from the main problem of having enough time to prepare lessons, tutor students who are behind, and giving individual feedback during grading. I'm a high school teacher and I would much rather have 150 kids with 30 kids in 5 classes during my 7 period day than 150 kids in 6 smaller classes of 25. During that extra hour I can grade, tutor and plan and raise the level of learning for ALL kids.

The ideal teacher load in a high school is 80 regular ed students. That's not happening. But if I have to have 150 kids, then at least give me time to prepare for them.
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Ariel Bonzai
Naked is the best disguise.
12:10 AM on 10/08/2011
The union probably does push for lower class size to gain more members. Like the school district, these organiations are all business. Neither one cares about education or students. However, class sie has an impact on learning. I don't need an exoert to tell me that. I can ask teachers and students who are in that classroom every day. LAUSD paid consutants to do a study that says otherwise. Starbucks funded another that sings praises for coffee's health benefits. The best thing to do is shake off the districts AND the unions, give schools too the community, which is parents and teachers who are committed to children, not profits.
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Grouchland
No day, But today! ~ RENT
10:50 AM on 10/08/2011
I think that the money we are spending on NCLB and Pearson and other companies selling us untellegence could be better used. The UFT is the most powerful union in the public sector and yes they do say this very loudly. I miss teaching in NYC but not fighting constantly.
01:44 AM on 10/11/2011
Most big cities, with a larger variety of ethnic, non-english speaking and poverty stricken students have appointed school boards and there is no "public" in public schools as you point out. That has to change for major cities to escape the total business for profit now in education and KEEP the unions that can help keep the "public' involved in the system.
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twfslc
01:56 PM on 10/07/2011
I had 30 kids in my kindergarden class, when I was a kid. The next year someone had the bright idea of putting the 2 sections of 1st grade in the kindergarden room. Even though there were two teachers, it was a zoo.
gov111w
Truth-Justice-And the American way !
10:48 AM on 10/07/2011
All these teachers do is whine....I had 48 kids in my class in elementary school !!
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mrsb1411
11:22 AM on 10/07/2011
ooh - must have been a lot of good learning going on in there! Most teachers are not whiners. They know (and you know too, if you have a lick of common sense) that overcrowding is a detriment to quality education.
gov111w
Truth-Justice-And the American way !
12:26 PM on 10/07/2011
The issue is what is overcrowding...2 or more students..22...32
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roaddawg31
06:06 PM on 10/09/2011
Uh, regardless of this topic. Teachers ARE whiners, of the highest order. Sit in a staff room for any length of time, and you soon realize.
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raggedhand
02:22 PM on 10/09/2011
Back in the day I was in large classes, too. But in the dark ages, we didn't have special ed inclusion (I teach computer classes that include everyone from gifted to autistic to special ed), pregnant students and students on drugs (those kids dropped out). Our teachers didn't have hours and hours of state mandated meetings (ARDs, 504's, bullying, harrassment, gang awareness, English as a Second Language...you name it) and paperwork to fill out. I get paperwork for SPED kids every single day. If a kid was absent, the teachers back then didn't come up with take home work, work to be sent to suspended kids or special work for each kid with special needs from everything from dsylexia to ADHD. Those kids had to sink or swim.

So yes, we had huge classes and the teachers managed to find time to teach. It's a different classroom now.
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acumenguy
It could be carried by an African swallow
09:14 PM on 10/06/2011
Best post ever. I would love to see the people espousing the different views in a caged ring match. You’ll figure out which side I’m on in a minute. Has no one ever told A. Duncan “It is better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt?” To wit: "My point there was that I think the quality of the teacher is so hugely important," he said. "I've said things like, give me the parent, give me an option of 28 children in a class with a phenomenal teacher or 22 children in a class with a mediocre teacher. If I was given that choice, I would choose a larger class size." I would go a rant, but someone else did it for me, to wit: “Queens teacher Bertolotti said she'd take smaller class sizes over increased pay.”I would rather forfeit a salary increase than increase class size because learning is greatly affected," she said.
The Arnie Duncans of the world would be shocked (unlike true educators) as to how many teachers share the same sentiment. WHY do you think so many teachers opt to teach in private schools?
07:55 PM on 10/06/2011
Paying a teacher more will not make that person be able to split in more pieces to help students, what kids need is more one to one ( not literally ) help, and what I mean is smaller class number of students.
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Grouchland
No day, But today! ~ RENT
10:52 AM on 10/08/2011
F&F
So So SO true!
Also, I wonder what would happen if every company making profits from NCLB in any way would just stop misleading people then maybe the money we need would be there for a teacher to teach another class???????
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roaddawg31
05:22 PM on 10/09/2011
Listen--here's the thing about NCLB, and it's the TEACHERS fault. If you took a poll of teachers, on whether NCLB is working or not, I'm going to be conservative and say that 95% (an overwhelming majority) would say it's a failure.

Now, if that's the case, that thing shouldn't be there. The teachers need to voice themselves. They have been made to be complacent about this issue and others, because they HAVE been made complacent. It's the same thing BTW, that has happened to our country (the populous) has been made complacent, with the luxuries and diversions (e.g Dancing With the Stars)... that we tolerate things taken away left and right... until we are no longer a FREE country. Do people realize that? We aren't a free country any longer!

Same thing in education--teachers no longer control what happens (i.e. freedom) in their classroom. They have allowed legislation to run roughshod over them because they got too comfortable.
06:29 PM on 10/06/2011
In floriduh we are getting the best of both worlds! Larger class size AND less pay! All this talk about paying teachers more, while every state has cut their pay. Wake up and smell the end of public schooling. Don't worry, the republicans will pay for your kids to go to a private or charter school... until there are no public schools. I mean, you can trust them, right? They don't seek only to help the wealthy "job creators" by robbing school children, right?
05:01 PM on 10/06/2011
"You do the math and you see that the vast majority of our spending in education goes to staff," said Michael Petrilli, a former education government official who now leads the right-leaning Thomas B. Fordham Institute. And you would rather it went where? And oh how typical of non-educators: "If you want to increase salary and benefits and keep the overall staff the same, it's impossible to do that without raising class sizes." Why is the answer always "either or" with right wingers the world exists only in black and white. This whole article is fraught with bureaucratic stupid speak...
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SeptimusDSX
Always question the obvious.
07:41 PM on 10/06/2011
I thought of saying a few words echoing the same thoughts, but it would have been a rather poor effort when compared with Ambill94's post.
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Grouchland
No day, But today! ~ RENT
10:54 AM on 10/08/2011
Can you do the math on the cost of NCLB. federal, state, and local offices where all they do is complain and report to the public. Pearson makes a mint creating tests. The money is not in the classrooms. It is at the top. That is the problem.
11:16 AM on 10/08/2011
Apples and oranges...the argument for local school districts is what is referred to here, in terms of how to keep costs (local property taxes) "under control" because everyone wants better education but no one wants to pay for it...and the greatest cost is staffing classrooms...Standardized testing and publisher driven assessments are separate cans of worms that, for many educators like myself, are root causes of much of the disparity in learning outcomes as well as providing huge cash cows for testing companies, and publishers, with Pearson being the most prolific but not the only offender.
03:31 PM on 10/06/2011
Eric Hanushek is throwing up a smokescreen when he says teachers and unions use class size as a ploy to keep membership high and teachers employed. What a weenie! Of course lower numbers of students improve learning - with fewer students, there's less chance for disciplinary distraction, there's more opportunity for individual and differentiated instruction, there's less time devoted to grading which equates to more time devoted to planning strong lessons, and there is more time for building quality teacher/parent relationships that are so important to student growth. Eric Hanushek is a tool for his corporate funders at Stanford posing as an academic to disguise his efforts to destroy unions, destroy public funding of schools, and the destroy the voice of teachers in shaping what happens in classrooms across the nation. Mr. Hanushek is frustrated that teachers - the ones actually teaching kids and watching them grow - don't agree with his research about class sizes, so to get his way, he starts insulting them for not agreeing. Nice job, Stanford boy.
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grammasher
03:12 PM on 10/06/2011
You do the math and you see that the vast majority of our spending in education goes to staff," said Michael Petrilli

Where else would you expect it to go?
03:22 PM on 10/06/2011
totally! i chuckled when i read that line.
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Grouchland
No day, But today! ~ RENT
10:56 AM on 10/08/2011
Really? by staff are we including all the paper pushers? All the data collectors? etc? staff that does face to face time TEACHING ought to be counted.
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grammasher
09:33 AM on 10/09/2011
Well, duh--Of course teachers are staff. What would you call them?
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demcratville
Science makes you think.
02:20 PM on 10/06/2011
Smaller Class Sizes are no Liberal conspiracy Like they think global warming is.This is the way we must reorganize To Help Our Kids succeed.
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Marx Twain
America's homespun Marxist
01:40 PM on 10/06/2011
Isn't it funny how private-school educated politicians like Arne Duncan like to say how class size isn't an issue? For them it sure isn't, they send their kids to private schools with small class sizes. Can you imagine a private school out there with 40+ kids in it? If so, I've got some morgatge backed securities I'd like to sell you.
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maninal2
Without knowledge action is useless
01:45 PM on 10/06/2011
"I've got some morgatge backed securities I'd like to sell you. "

So do the big banks, AIG and the US Government
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Marx Twain
America's homespun Marxist
10:05 PM on 10/06/2011
Irony is lost on some people...
03:18 PM on 10/06/2011
yeah, this is the thing that is so ironic. in our district, people who fight against increasing funding go to private schools with 10-15 students per class (among other significantly advantageous resources). if class size doesnt matter, let them implement the same ones that public schools have. didn't think so.
that said, i do know some private parochial schools that have similar class sizes to public, but in those cases the teachers also say that the class size is an inhibitor for effectiveness.