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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders

First Posted: 10/20/11 02:45 PM ET   Updated: 11/01/11 05:27 PM ET

Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.

This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.

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  • Dr. Ibrahim Abdurrahman Farajaje

    Dr. Ibrahim Abdurrahman Farajaje is Provost of Starr King School for the Ministry, Professor of Cultural Studies and Islamic Studies, and Sufi. Taught the first divinity school class in the US on African-American faith communities and HIV prevention.

  • Irshad Manji

    Irshad Manji is a Muslim and founder and director of the <a href="https://www.irshadmanji.com/Moral-Courage-Project" target="_hplink">Moral Courage Project</a> at New York University's School of Public Service.

  • Bishop Gene Robinson

    Bishop of the <a href="http://www.nhepiscopal.org/" target="_hplink">Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire</a>.

  • Rev. Ouyang Wen Feng

    Reverend Ouyang Wen Feng founded a gay-friendly church outside Kuala Lumpur and is thought to be the country's only openly gay pastor. Although he now lives in the U.S., he frequently returns to Malaysia to call for gay rights, despite the country outlawing homosexuality.

  • Imam Daayiee Abdullah

    Imam Daayiee Abdullah is the imam and religious director of <a href="http://daayieesplaceofinnerpeace.com/MASJID_ANNURAL_ISSLAAH.html" target="_hplink">Masjid An-Nur Al-Isslaah</a>, and the co-director of <a href="http://www.mpvusa.org/" target="_hplink">Muslims for Progressive Values</a>

  • Bishop Mary Douglas Glasspool

    Bishop Mary Douglas Glasspool serves as the Assistant Bishop of <a href="http://www.ladiocese.org/" target="_hplink">The Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles</a>.

  • Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum

    Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum serves as the spiritual leader of <a href="http://www.cbst.org/" target="_hplink">Congregation Beit Simshat Torah</a>, the largest LGBT synagogue in the world.

  • Rev. Troy Perry

    Rev. Troy Perry founded the LGBT denomination of <a href="http://mccchurch.org/" target="_hplink">Metropolitan Community Churches </a>(MCC) in 1968.

  • Larry Yang

    <a href="http://www.larryyang.org/home.html" target="_hplink">Larry Yang</a> is on the Spirit Rock Teachers' Council and a core teacher at the new East Bay Meditation Center in Oakland, Calif.

  • Pastor Manny Santiago

    Pastor Manny Santiago is the pastor of <a href="http://www.ubcseattle.org/" target="_hplink">University Baptist Church</a> in Seattle, Wa.

  • Rev. Scott Anderson

    Rev. Scott Anderson is the first openly gay PCUSA minister ordained after the church voted to allow individual presbyteries to set their own ordination guidelines around sexual orientation

  • Rev. Pat Bumgardner

    The Rev. Pat Bumgardner is currently the Senior Pastor of <a href="http://mccny.org/wordpress/" target="_hplink">Metropolitan Community Church</a> of New York.

  • Rabbi Steven Greenberg

    Rabbi Steven Greenberg, the first openly gay Orthodox rabbi, is Director of Orthodox Programs for <a href="http://www.nehirim.org/" target="_hplink">Nehirim</a>, the organization for GLBT Jewish culture and spirituality.

  • Bishop Yvette Flunder

    Bishop Flunder founded the United Church of Christ Church, <a href="http://www.sfrefuge.org/index.cfm" target="_hplink">City of Refuge</a> and presiding Bishop of <a href="http://www.radicallyinclusive.com/" target="_hplink">The Fellowship</a>.

  • Archbishop Carl Bean

    Archbishop Carl Bean founded the <a href="http://www.unityfellowshipchurch.org/mainsite/" target="_hplink">Unity Fellowship Church Movement,</a> a primarily African American and LGBT denomination.

  • Rev. Malcolm Boyd

    Rev. Malcolm Boyd is an Episcopalian Priest and author of "<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Are-You-Running-Me-Jesus/dp/1561012750" target="_hplink">Are You Running With Me Jesus?</a>"

  • Justin Lee

    <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Coloradem"><img style="float:left;padding-right:6px !important;" src="http://i.huffpost.com/profiles/466930-tiny.png?20091015162513" /></a><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Coloradem">Coloradem</a>:<br />Justin Lee is the founder and Executive Director of the Gay Christian Network.

  • William R. Johnson

    William R. Johnson - First Openly Gay person ordained in a mainline denomination (United Church of Christ) and founder of the UCC Coalition for LGBT Concerns and Maranatha: Riversiders for LGBT Concerns at the Riverside Church, NYC.

  • Rev. Robin Reiter

    Rev. Robin Reiter is the Founder and director of Sacred Abundance Ministries

  • Rev. August Gold

    Founder of the Spiritual Center - NYC, Author, speaker, life coach.

  • Jimmy Creech

    Jimmy Creech was defrocked by the United Methodist Church and lost his ordination for performing same-sex commitment ceremonies. He is the author of Adam's Gift: A Memoir of a Pastor's Calling to Defy The Church's Persecution of Lesbians and Gays.

  • Minister Mychaeltodd

    Executive Director of Fig Leaf

  • Rev. Dr. Jo Hudson

    Rev. Dr. Jo Hudson is Senior Pastor at Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, TX

  • Bayard Rustin

    Bayard Rsutin was the Quaker activist who not only mentored Dr. King in the principles of non-violent, non cooperation, but also helped found the Southern Church Leadership Conference. Rustin was the chief organizer of the '63 March on Washington, as well as of the first Freedom Rides in 1947. Because Rustin was openly gay, he had to remain behind the scenes in the Civil Rights movement, as his sexuality was the target of attacks by anti Civil Rights antagonists.

  • Candace Chellew-Hodge

    Candace Chellew-Hodge is the founder of Whosoever: An Online Magazine for GLBT Christians that was founded in 1996. The magazine was the first of its kind on the internet has continued to be a resource for the LGBT community since then at whosoever.org. She is also the author of Bulletproof Faith: A Spiritual Survival Guide for Gay and Lesbian Christians published in 2008.

  • Rabbi Denise Eger

    Rabbi Denise Eger serves at Congregation Kol Ami and long time LGBT activist

  • Rev. Peter J. Gomes

    Rev. Peter J. Gomes (who passed away earlier this year) was longtime pastor of The Memorial Church at Harvard. He came out in 1991, saying "I am a Christian who happens as well to be gay. Those realities, which are irreconcilable to some, are reconciled in me by a loving God."

  • Pastor Dennis A. Meredith

    Pastor Dennis A. Meredith is the Pastor of Tabernacle Baptist Church, Atlanta, GA

  • Pastor Darlene C. A. Franklin

    Pastor Franklin is the Pastor of Agape Spirit Life Ministries in Detroit. She is a leader in social justice and a pioneer in spiritual equality for the LGBT Community.

  • Rev. Roger E. Hayes

    Rev. Hayes is the Senior Pastor of Church Of The Holy Spirit Fellowship located in Winston Salem, Nc

  • The Rev. Elder Jim Mitulski

    Rev. Jim Mitulski, pastor of MCC New York City, came to MCC San Francisco. Under Jim's leadership for 15 years, the church entered a period of sustained growth during the devastating years of the AIDS epidemic and shifted from being a place to meet on Sundays into an integrated part of the San Francisco queer community.

  • Dr. Herukhuti

    Dr. Herukhuti, Founder of Black Funk: The Center for Culture, Sexuality, and Spirituality; author of Conjuring Black Funk: Notes on Culture, Sexuality, and Spirituality; and practitioner of traditional African and African Diasporic spirituality.

  • Archbishop Michael Seneco

    Archbishop Michael Seneco, the presiding bishop of the North American Old Catholic Church- a progressive Catholic denomination with ministries in 23 states.

  • The Rev. Dr. Katrina D. Foster

    Rev. Dr. Katrina D. Foster is an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) pastor. In 2007 she came out of the floor of her denomination's national assembly, after which the bishops put forth a resolution allowing them to abstain from discipling lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender pastors with families and not face disciplinary action themselves for not bringing charges against these pastors.

  • Rabbi Andrea Myers

    Rabbi Andrea Myers is the author of the book, "The Choosing-A Rabbi's Journey from Silent Nights to High Holy Days", an activist and mother.

  • Author Jay Michaelson

    Jay Michaelson is a writer, scholar, and actvist whose work focuses on the intersections of religion, spirituality, sexuality, and law. His newest book, "God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality" shows that the Bible supports equal rights.

  • The Rev. Dr. Neil Thomas

    The Rev. Dr. Neil Thomas is currently the Senior Pastor of Metropolitan Community Church of Los Angeles.

  • Rev. Canon Susan Russell

    Rev. Canon Susan Russell is the Associate Pastor at All Saints Pasadena, CA, past president of Integrity, HRC Religion and Faith Council.

  • Pastor Bradley Schmeling

    Rev. Bradley Schmeling is Pastor of St. John's Lutheran Church, ELCA, Atlanta GA. Led the way for full inclusion of LGBT clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).

  • Rev. Dr. Nancy L. Wilson

    Rev. Dr. Nancy L. Wilson is Moderator of Metropolitan Community Churches

  • Rev. Michael Hydes

    Rev. Michael Hydes is the Pastor of New Light Metropolitan Community Church in Hagerstown, MD

  • Rev. Jo Pang

    Pastor Of Good Samaritan Church In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, c...
Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, c...
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08:51 PM on 11/10/2011
homosexuality is indeed immoral behavior and is a major sin in Islam. The practice of homosexuality began with the people of Lut (Alyhis Salaam). Allah Ta’ala says in the Holy Quran:

ولوطا إذ قال لقومه أتأتون الفاحشة ما سبقكم بها من أحد من العالمين

“And (remember) Lut, when he said to his people: Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceded you has committed in the worlds?” (7:80)

In this verse, the word “Fahishah”, which means an atrocious, obscene, lewd, shameless act, is referring to the practice of homosexuality. After the people of Sodom ignored the warnings of Lut (Alayhis Salaam) to stop this act and to follow the true path, Allah Ta’ala wiped them out with a severe punishment by turning their towns upside down and burying them with stones of baked clay. This was a telling punishment by Allah Ta’ala for going against the natural order created by Him.

Allah Ta’ala has also stated in several places of the Quran that He has created men and women so that they may be mates for each other (in marriage). The inception of marriage for mankind on Earth was to maintain the human race through procreation. Therefore, it is absolutely clear that homosexuality is strictly prohibited.
07:31 AM on 11/02/2011
I believe many Muslim scholars would indicate that Irshad Manji is in fact not Muslim.
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Hectrev1
05:36 PM on 10/31/2011
Congratulations to Archbishop Michael Seneco for his pastoral leadership.
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iamone3
07:22 PM on 10/28/2011
Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end. It is contrary to the survival of the species. Just facts.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
12:54 PM on 10/29/2011
Our species is in no apparent danger of going extinct as a result of too few of us.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head...
01:57 AM on 10/30/2011
Funny thing about that is that you really have to be a breeder who doesn't understand we're a social species to say that.

If this was about breeding, we wouldn't be talking here, cause we wouldn't. We'd be breeding.
05:47 AM on 10/28/2011
You people who have lost yourselves to the mental and emotional illness that is lgbt Lost-Goofy-Boneheads n Twits need to resign yourselves to The Written Word and not try and bend it to fit whatever platform which you "choose" to speak from!! The bottom line here, ooops uhhm sorry boys NOT that one, is to learn The Truth and then refrain from doing any more of what ails you currently and Pray that your footsteps and heart will lead you to "A New Understanding" so that the old way of life is left behind making it possible for "A New Creature" to appear, one who is
ready and obedient To Both Keep and Do The Will and Word Of God Almighty!! Heyy, don't get mad at me, just get it together and change your acts so that you DO NOT INFLUENCE THE AS YET UNEXPOSED AND THE YOUNG WHO HAVE NOT EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO LEARN, KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE SCOURGE AND VILE ILLNESS THAT WOULD TAKE THEM ALL SO WILLINGLY!!!!
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08:07 AM on 10/28/2011
You may or may not be a little nutty.... BUT....

You do have a point there when you say, "Do not influence the as yet unexposed." Truth be told, that is precisely the m.o. of some in the LGBT community (as well as others obsessed with sexualizing our entire culture).

Take NY, for example, where sarting next year there will be mandated sex ed starting in middle school which will teach people in as early as 7th grade not about the mechanics of sex or the biology, but about anal sex, homosexuality, anal sex, and, my personal favorite, "oral sex with braces." The students will be given 'risk cards' detailing different sexual acts with a detailed rating on them for each (as if any sexual act is really 'safe' for a 7th grader).

While I'm a bit skeptical of your post (seems a little over the top for me), I will say that you hit the nail on the head with that one statement. For the most part, unless specifically brought to their attention, a 7th grader would likely not even consider many of the things that are slated to be taught to them next year. (Feel free to do a Google News search)

The funny thing is, "they" continuously force sex into society's youth, then turn around and say, "Well, kids are doing it anyway, so we might as well address it." It's like a glass shop owner smashing neighborhood windows on the weekend.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him
10:20 AM on 10/28/2011
F&F
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith.
09:25 AM on 10/28/2011
lol. Umm. I think you should re-read the written word. Its not these people that are bending it. Its the tradition that has been around for 700 years that bent it. Yes 700 not 2000.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him
10:21 AM on 10/28/2011
Sorry that doesnt fly. The twisting is being done by these leaders the written Biblical word doesnt equivocate.
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JohnT1919
06:53 PM on 10/27/2011
Reverend Mel White, founder of Soulforce should also be included. Congrats to all.
starjack
astrologer & radical queer muslim activist
10:55 AM on 10/27/2011
What? No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?
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11:23 AM on 10/26/2011
Reclaim?
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Stokes
07:47 AM on 10/26/2011
I believe that the unbiased love of the Almighty is for all of mankind who are seeking relief through a Higher Power. I believe that God is raising up a people who have put on the armor of the Holy Spirit to restore the true teachings of Christ as each is inspired by the wisdom of God's messenger. I also think it wise to listen to and understand the reasoning of some atheists. Judgementalism is as rampant among as many who claim to be Christians as is among some radicals in the Muslim faith. Christians have been programmed to look down on some just as southerners have been programmed to look down on people with dark skin. God is a Spirit of love and truth. God's spiritual love does not require physical contact.
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Trekkiefandom
Truth, happiness, Liberty, and freedom of all
12:49 PM on 10/26/2011
well said.
11:57 PM on 10/23/2011
I tried adding a slide, but it didn't go through - and he may not be eligible for this list since he died earlier this year, but I don't see how it can be complete without a mention of Rev. Peter Gomes. A brilliant preacher and writer, he came out in 1991. His "The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart," written a couple of years later, opened many minds (including mine).
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Coloradem
Christian, Gay, Democrat
02:04 PM on 10/24/2011
Gomes was an amazing man.
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revsusanrussell
Episcopal priest and LGBT activist
06:57 PM on 10/23/2011
What a great cloud of witnesses -- many of whom I am honored to call friends and brothers and sisters in the struggle. They show us that it is long past time time to take to heart the words of Rabbi Abraham Heschel, who famously said, “Few are guilty, but all are responsible.” We -- progressive people of faith -- may not be guilty of the religion based bigotry that has wounded countless members of God’s beloved LGBT children but we responsible for offering a counter-narrative to the lies that have been told about the God we serve – the God of love, justice and compassion.

Also on my list: Rabbi Denise Eger; Rabbi Temple Kol Ami, founding member of HRC Religion Council and past-president So Cal Board of Rabbis and the Very Reverend Michael Hopkins; past-president of Integrity USA and an architect of the Episcopal Church's movement forward on LGBT ordinations and the blessing of same-sex union.

The Reverend Canon Susan Russell
Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles/All Saints Church, Pasadena
12:48 AM on 10/23/2011
Missed a few--- Carter Hayward, lesbian, Episcopal priest and writer; Amy deLong, Methodist pastor recently stood trial for officiating at the marriage of two women; Rev. Dr. William Johnson, first openly gay man to be ordained by a mainline Protestant church (United Church of Christ)
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave
10:56 PM on 10/22/2011
Oh! This is going to be good! I haven't even read the comments yet but I'm going to grab a drink and start reading the "Christians" attacking one another! I can almost visualize all the pasting of Bible verses that's about to take place. Can't wait to count how many times the term "true Christian" is used!

This is going to be great!
10:40 PM on 10/22/2011
Most of the items that were called sins in the bible are not considered sins today. It keeps changing and even the most conservative reactionary Christian doesn't call all of the sins of the bible sins for today. Mylord, the bible supported slavery in a jolly way and sujugation of women and other people especially the gentiles. In Leviticus, the jews were allowed to wipe out villages with women and children included. Everyone. No religious sect in modern times advocates such stuff although it was in the not so long ago past.

Most of the posts by Christians on this thread have been anything but Christian with the love and forgiveness described by Jesus. Like Gandhi said, "I like your Jesus, but the Christians, not so much". I feel the same after reading the posts here and having dialogues with some pretty bigoted dark people. I'm sure there are very good people. I know there are, but in this thread most have been dreaming some very dark dreams with a very mean avatar.

My daughter is gay and I raised her through her tough life. She is a very intelligent, thoughtful human being. Her depth and open heart and mind is a wonder for me to see. She is now in a loving relationship. She is teaching me about love. Love. Love and laughter. Love and compassion. Understanding. There is no way that her behavior is sin. It is love.
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave
11:23 PM on 10/22/2011
You know they're going to lash out at you and say some evil things Lucy......and it's supposed to come from a place of "love".......the same mentality as what they used in boot camp....."The beatings will continue until morale improves"......

Good for you and your daughter. You're supposed to be there for her. That's your child. She is who she is. I believe in God and God doesn't make mistakes. He makes people as they are.

So many people are hung up on the Bible, not knowing where it came from, when it was written, by whom it was written, how the books were selected, and which books were left out. Let's talk about the Gospel of Thomas and how Jesus viewed true salvation. Of course this means nothing to the "scholars" you'll see writing on these pages because they refuse to acknowledge anything they can't understand or regurgitate from memory.

Oh well. I love reading the attacks. These people truly believe their own hype. Arrogant. Prideful. Boastful. Condescending.

Disgusting.
11:47 AM on 10/23/2011
Thank you for posting a gracious and supportive post. A needed "pause or reprieve" on this thread to say the least. It doesn't fix this problem of over the top self-righteousness, but acknowledges the silliness.

Peace be with you.
08:03 PM on 11/08/2011
I am a Christian and if anyone were to attack Lucy on this issue or any other, I would be the first one to draw my sword (metaphorically speaking) and defend her. She is not a Christian. I believe she is Buddhist. So none of this applies to her or her daughter. Everyone deserves to live in peace. Even on a message board. Just because folks engage in discussion, it does not always equate to "attack". Everyone gets a chance to make their stance, get challenged, and defend it. It's called civil discourse. Those who decide to chide and belittle, do not get the opportunity for intelligent dialogue. Most people will not engage them. Sure folks can be arrogant, prideful, boastful and condescending. I have seen my share from Atheists attacking me...but it makes no difference to me. I shake off the dust from my shoes and move on. Disgusting walks on both sides of the street...
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Gerald Brogdon
09:38 AM on 11/09/2011
Ref: " ...sins today." Sins are defined as missing the mark of God's will. In Leviticus and Joshua, the Hebrews were told by God to "genocide" neighboring tribes in the Promised Land. How does that coincide with the "Do not kill" commandment? First, understand that God's mission and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham meant that God was going to use the Hebrews to provide His salvation solution. Second, recognize that commandments are not equal. There are priorities (see Matthew 22:36-40). Third, recognize that the neighboring tribes were very influential upon the Hebrews when they remained to influence them in the worship of other "supposed" gods. In most ethical societies today, the loss of many is never outweighed by the loss of few. God, in His omniscience, gave the command to "genocide" neighboring tribes in order to save billions in the future through His salvation solution. All the commands in the Torah were designed to keep the Hebrews unique and separated. Notice that the Hebrews are the only people I'm aware of that have genealogies as deep in this span of time and why both Matthew and Luke traced Jesus' genealogy, at least, back to Abraham. The reason Christians focus on the top two priority commandments over Torah law is twofold: 1) Jesus' priority (see above) and 2) God has provided His salvation solution. However, please note that Jesus said that the law will never go away; it is just tertiary in priority to the two commandments.
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Jake Thomas
elastic
10:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him
09:23 AM on 10/25/2011
A literal interpretation of the Bible also includes one where the Bible is read in its proper theological context. When you include the New Covenant.the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus.

I wish that people really studied Christianity before they copied and pasted "gotcha" scriptures to promote a false sense of conundrum as well as a completely unrelated support for other actions.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach
05:41 AM on 10/26/2011
What you have offered is nothing more than spin without addressing the real problems raised. You claim that "t­he punishment for what you have written are inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus," but you didn't address the real problem, when were they ever moral? If the Bible is a moral book, when was it ever moral to put a child to death for cursing his or her parents? When was it ever moral to put people to death for adultery? When was it ever moral to put two gay men to death for being gay? When was it ever moral to put a young girl to death because she didn't remain a virgin before getting married? These are not simply "gotcha" questions, but address a deeper issue, the Bible's commandments are often immoral themselves. Frankly, many more examples could be given illustrating this point. These commandments are not only "inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus," but immoral in themselves. Furthermore, your notion that they are now "inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus" is just your personal spin. And if many of the commandments in Hebrew scripture are immoral, who is to say that some of the commandments in the New Testament are not immoral also?
02:02 PM on 11/08/2011
"My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpreta­tion of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order. "

Only when you confront people who are determined to live however they please regardless of whether or not there is a God and how that God may want them to live.
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Binea
Only a fool denies she is a fool, I am no fool
02:13 PM on 11/08/2011
salvation isn't dependent on what anyone does. Living right,or uh learning to live right and growing more and more in the knowledge and fear of the Lord,is a "result" of having already been saved,not a means to it.
That said..all men/women are commanded to obey God..and really,who can really, know for sure if they have or have not been saved,when it is all up to God.So..we live and learn and try anyway and hope and pray we are his..if we are not..well it is not somethimg we ever deserved anyway.