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Ohio Issue 2: Defeat May Not Be End of Collective Bargaining Law

Sb 5 Future

First Posted: 10/31/11 06:17 PM ET Updated: 10/31/11 06:39 PM ET

A defeat of Ohio's controversial new collective bargaining law in the Nov. 8 referendum may not be the final death blow to parts of the bill.

Political observers expect the Republican-controlled state legislature to try to repass parts of the law when lawmakers reconvene in January. In addition to the ban on public employees being able to collectively bargain for benefits, the bill includes requirements for public employees to pay in a certain percentage for health and pension benefits -- issues that have proven popular with Buckeye State voters. Recent polls have shown the entire law is likely to be defeated in the referendum.

"What will the response be of the Republican legislature if S.B. 5 is defeated?" asked Herb Asher, a political science professor at Ohio State University, referring to Issue 2 by the bill name, Senate Bill 5.

Asher and John Green, the director of the Bliss Institute of Politics at the University of Akron, agreed it is likely that the legislature will consider enacting parts of a defeated law in new laws. These include the provision requiring a 15-percent pay-in for health benefits and a 10-percent pay-in for pension costs for local government employees.

"These provisions would be the ones that would save local governments some money," Asher said.

S.B. 5 was signed into law by Gov. John Kasich (R) earlier this year and became an immediate target for elimination by labor unions in the state. Unions used a provision in the Ohio constitution to force a referendum to overturn the law, gathering over a million petition signatures to get the Issue 2 measure on the ballot. The race has heated up, with millions of dollars spent on both sides.

A Quinnipiac University poll released last week showed 57 percent of voters likely to vote to repeal the law. The same poll indicated that voters did favor the health and pension contribution portions of the bill, along with allowing for merit-based increases for public employee pay. The poll said that 60 percent support the health care pay-in, while 57 percent support the pension pay-in and 49-percent support merit pay.

The possibility of a new version of parts of S.B. 5 worry some in the Ohio labor movement, with the hope that a big win on Nov. 8 will stop Republicans from enacting provisions covered in the bill.

"They have such a majority in the legislature," Harriet Applegate, executive secretary of the North Shore AFL-CIO in Cleveland, said of the Republicans. "They way we are trying to address that is to win big. That would take the wind out of the sails."

Green said he expected the margin of victory to be the key to the final plan in the event that Issue 2 is defeated. He said that a large margin of defeat could prevent Republicans from enacting any parts of the bill or being selective in which measures they do enact. Under Ohio law, voters have to either accept or reject S.B. 5 as a whole and cannot cherry pick portions they favor.

At the same time, Green said that Republicans could have a new sense of optimism in the event that the polls prove wrong and voters uphold S.B. 5.

"If Issue 2 holds they will be emboldened to try other issues," he said.

Kasich’s spokesman, Rob Nichols, said that the governor is not focused on the future of S.B. 5, but rather on the upcoming vote. Kasich has been traveling the state campaigning for the bill, which has become the defining issue of his first year in office.

"We're not talking about that -- what we are talking about is winning the election," Nichols said.

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A defeat of Ohio's controversial new collective bargaining law in the Nov. 8 referendum may not be the final death blow to parts of the bill. Political observers expect the Republican-controlled st...
A defeat of Ohio's controversial new collective bargaining law in the Nov. 8 referendum may not be the final death blow to parts of the bill. Political observers expect the Republican-controlled st...
 
 
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10:59 PM on 11/08/2011
Keep trying, Kasich. It will definitely be the END of YOUR employment in Ohio.
10:39 PM on 11/08/2011
"...voters did favor the health and pension contribution portions ...."

Well, at least the voters in Ohio aren't completely without a clue.

But hey, we can have collective bargaining as long as those folks get to contribute to their pensions like the rest of us, and they can be FIRED if they S*(CK at their jobs.

Now if we can just make it illegal for public employee Unions to bribe politicians. That would be perfect.
11:00 PM on 11/08/2011
Sure, as long as we get rid of all the billions that were approved by the Supreme Court to BRIBE politicians by the rich and the corporations. That would be PERFECT if we could just go to publicly financed elections and eliminate CORPORATE INFLUENCE.
12:30 AM on 11/09/2011
eliminate corporate influence? it's the only thing that keeps the commie unions from destroying our nation.
03:16 AM on 11/03/2011
Who does this bill hurt the most? It hurts the over burdoned teachers we have entrusted our our children to. It hurts the brave men and women of our firefighhters and police, who put their lives on the line every day! It hurts average families trying to keep their heads above water in uncertain economic times! Gov. Kasich, "I hope you sleep well at night knowing the anguish you are inflicting on hardworking families with children! Dave Wallace
03:49 PM on 11/02/2011
I love going through the teachers parking lot at the school and seeing 70% foreign non union cars. The local police department was 50%. The fire department had all American cars, although I do see quite a few of their stickers on foreign cars. Apparently the union loyalty ends when it comes to your own self interest.
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fgrammit
01:00 PM on 11/08/2011
OFCOURSE THE KOCHS WANT MORE GAS HOGS ON THE ROAD MORE MONEY AT THE PUMPS RIGHT ? and ofcourse your loyalty is first to corporations that send their JOBS over seas and theirMONEY oever seas oh BTW many of these cars you are taalking about are FROM american manufacturers who have done just that. shipped their money over seas along with the jobs just because a car has an american name does not mean it was manugactured in America ROTTEN call on your part.,John K
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dbrett480
03:27 PM on 11/02/2011
Most public workers already pay for their health care and contribute to their pensions. But that doesn't matter in this case; the Republicans just want to blame public workers for the problems with the economy so their big business backers can continue making millions.
03:44 PM on 11/02/2011
Compared to the private sector they pay very little. Private sector empolyees contribute 50% of their social security. Government employees also make more, have better benefits, and get to retire when they are 50 instead of 67. Is that fair? Go ahead and win on issue 2 but the fact remains that we (The taxpayers in Ohio) are not going to pass any levies or tax increases down the road so your employers are going to have to deal with that by laying people off.
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dbrett480
03:59 PM on 11/02/2011
I'm not sure what government employees you are talking about, but they are none that I know. When education is taken into account, government employees make the same as private sector employees. They also contribute about half into their pension funds (since they do not receive social security). And, with the exception of law enforcement and firefighters, most government employees work well into their 60s.
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truthillusion
Earth the only 1 we got! Take care of it!
03:03 PM on 11/05/2011
I don't know where you get your #'s Rotten? Either your misinformed or making them up but are you saying that private sector employees pay 50% of their wages to SS? That's not true. And if in your case it is true, your employer is ripping you off? SS is 6.2 %. Government employees across the board did not make more than private, until recently when Wall street & the banks tanked the economy and employers took advantage of the less than ideal employment outlook. Low & behold, the only thing that kept the government from screwing government employees was...Unions. Public sector employees don't get profit sharing or 401ks or stock options either? So, I would suggest to you, join a Union! The real problem is not that the states have to pay pensions & benefits to workers, it's the fact that the people you elected didn't manage the money correctly and have major short falls in their budgets and blaming it on public sector workers is convenient. By the way, those people you elected have great pay & great benefits?
07:30 PM on 11/04/2011
Get help ! Please,before its to late..
02:53 PM on 11/01/2011
Yes the Republicans whole focus is ALWAYS on winning, NOT what's best for the state, the country, or WE, THE PEOPLE.
03:45 PM on 11/02/2011
So overpaid goernment emplyees are good for the State?
rogergoldkin
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance
11:20 PM on 11/04/2011
Overpaid? Not hardly. Proof please. And yes these employees are good for both the State and it's citizens. Do you really want a poorly equipped and undermanned police unit or firefighter brigade to respond to an emergency at your home or place of business or do you want the best talent and equipment to respond?
11:04 PM on 11/08/2011
Ask Kasich how big the percentage of wage increases were for HIS employees over what Strickland was paying his? I believe there was a CONSIDERABLE INCREASE ... large enough to make you cringe.
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01:59 PM on 11/01/2011
Unions are very important. But in the public sector citizen taxpayers should not have to be subjects of any possibly unreasonable public union requests or demands. If the public doesn't agree with a public unions terms do they have another place to turn to for their needed services? In the private sector the public does have a choice. So the rules for public unions should be different. Even Franklin Roosevelt felt this way. Public unions are not the same as private unions. Less than half the states in America give full collective bargaining rights to public workers. The rest of the states allow none at all or restrict collective bargaining to some extent. If issue 2 passes Ohio would be more in line with the 27 states that legislate some kind of restrictions on public workers collective bargaining. Taxpayers are not an unlimited money supply.
Our military serves the public also. And their jobs are just as important and dangerous. But they do not have any union collective bargaining.
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07:28 PM on 11/01/2011
The poll mentioned in the above article had less than 2,000 participants of which 57% disapproved of issue 2. Not even worth mentioning something with this few people polled as there are over 8 million registered voters in Ohio.
rogergoldkin
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance
11:23 PM on 11/04/2011
It's called a scientific statistical sample and it's very good at predicting actual outcomes. Too bad most righties these days don't believe in science and math.
11:27 AM on 11/03/2011
100% agreed. Public unions try to exert collective control as opposed to collective bargaining. A prime example is Illinois, that government is so messed up becuase the union contracts limit what they can do. They have no -layoff provisions, guaranteed raises and a constitution that prevents any reductions to benefits once gained. So basically the union runs the government. Not a good model for democracy.
rogergoldkin
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance
11:24 PM on 11/04/2011
Koch funded government purchases aren't a good model for democracy either!
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truthillusion
Earth the only 1 we got! Take care of it!
03:18 PM on 11/05/2011
It's called bargaining. Everything gained costs something. There are never any giveaways. If that is the case in Illinois, then either they have really good Unions or the State is really bad at bargaining? I've seen layoffs! I've seen guaranteed raises of 0, 0 & 1%! I've seen my health insurance premiums and deductibles go up without any bargaining! The only thing we're trying to control is not getting screwed like the rest of the country! Remember, we pay taxes too! Last I heard democracy is the art of compromise. It is never one sided. Removing bargaining rights is rigging the game.
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ronp121
08:58 AM on 11/01/2011
Union members united right. As a union member for forty three years I can't remember much being said that was good about the union I was with. They were spoke of as the govt. by the employees they represented. Things like they sold us out, they are bought and paid for, and on and on. Although at the end of the day we went home knowing that we had job protection against a unfair company that would fire you for any minor infraction. Now retired I realize how important unions are. They are like the 99ers they speak for how we feel and stand up for our rights.
11:11 PM on 11/08/2011
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. It appears there's always some bad with the good, but at the end of the day, the Unions have proved to have been the driving force in our country to provide decent wages for the vast majority of people, union AND non-union. It helped give job and safety protections, overtime pay, vacations and breaks, a living wage. I don't know of too many employers out there that give anything simply OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF THEIR HEARTS. The greed amongst corporations is rampant and they give NOTHING they don't have to. So in the end, we NEED the unions. People have been conceding and compromising on their pay and benefits for YEARS now, while idiots like John Kasich act like we're all lazy bums feeding at the public trough. HE is the one feeding off society and will get his wages and health care, etc. long after he leaves the governor's mansion. WE, THE PEOPLE need to continue to be on guard and protect ourselves from these vultures who continue to try to pick our bones. They won't be happy till they take our every last cent.
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ohiotechie
Better dead than red...
08:48 AM on 11/01/2011
When I grew up here in Ohio a good portion of people were union workers and we had a good standard of living. Good houses, nice neighborhoods, good schools - it was a good place to live and raise a family. Even people who weren't union members recognized that their 40 hour work week, overtime pay, workers compensation, unemployment insurance and health care benefits were a direct result of unions. Before we had unions and child labor laws the life of a working person was basically misery; long hours in dangerous conditions for very little pay with no time off, no health benefits and certainly no retirement.

Unions are the reason we have the middle class; unions are the reason we enjoy the standard of living we do; unions are the reason for workplace safety laws and so many other improvements that have made life good for working Americans.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
03:50 PM on 11/02/2011
And the unions got too powerful and chased a lot of jobs out of the State.
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ohiotechie
Better dead than red...
10:10 PM on 11/02/2011
You don't know what you're talking about. Jobs left the state for a variety of reasons but it wasn't the unions. Unions and union membership have been on a decline since the 1980's - not coincidentally so has the economy here. If getting rid of unions was the answer to Ohio's job woes we'd be a job creation machine since almost no one I know is a union member anymore. Instead we have staggering and long lasting unemployment.

You've just swallowed another right wing load of horse hockey. Just like the one about tax cuts creating jobs. It worked so well in the last decade when tax rates went to their lowest in a century didn't it? Funny how we had so many more jobs when taxes were higher under Clinton but then, hey, that's the magic of right wing horse hockey - it doesn't rely on facts just swagger and attitude.

The right always has to have a boogey man. For decades it was communism. For a while it was terrorism. Now it's unions and really anyone who has the audacity to use logic to see through their smoke screen.

You've been sold a bunch of lies son....
11:12 PM on 11/08/2011
Excellent post, Techie
08:35 AM on 11/01/2011
If this passes there will be lay offs. Public serves unions and democrats have made some sweetheart deals for public serves unions. Free healthcare and pensions. Early retirement with high percentage of pay. They are beginning to represent the non worker or poor worker, while the better employes go unrewarded. For the contracts and benifit the unions get the democrats get donations. The union members have no say in where thier donations go. When one gets contracts and benifits and the other get donations for delivering there is a problem. I am from OHIO
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ohiotechie
Better dead than red...
08:39 AM on 11/01/2011
There already have been layoffs - where have you been?
Hiker54
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
09:12 AM on 11/01/2011
So let me get this straight. Unions are there to protect themselves and have no concern for the working class. With sweetheart deals that benefit themselves, not the workers they represent.

And corporations care about the working class and care nothing about themselves? And the donations they give are to make life better for their employees and are not self-serving? And they don't have sweetheart deals?

What bizarro world are you living in?
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anthonyNtx
live and let live
01:02 AM on 11/01/2011
Dems should campaign to repeal the law just like Repubs campaign to repeal the health care law.
12:30 AM on 11/01/2011
"Where unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost" - Ronald Reagan. Also, because of the first amendment, the government cannot limit the collective bargaining rights of a union.
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WI Patriot
Defending the Constitution.
02:33 AM on 11/01/2011
For real unions yes. He wasnt talking about public unions........

Which many presidents and real labor unions, as well as this issue - point out why.
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ohiotechie
Better dead than red...
08:37 AM on 11/01/2011
So you can pierce the veil of space and time to look backwards into Reagan's mind? He said unions not some unions.
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jsgaetano
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus
03:37 AM on 11/01/2011
Since when have conservatives cared about the Constitution?
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ohiotechie
Better dead than red...
08:37 AM on 11/01/2011
When it suits them....
12:08 AM on 11/01/2011
The truth of the matter is, in a very odd way, it sounds like both sides are right on this issue. If Issue two passes, it could mean fewer police and fire fighters. If it succeeds, it could also mean fewer police and fire fighters. However, I'm not really comfortable with the state controlling unions in this manner, so I think if I were in Ohio, I would oppose the legislation.
Hiker54
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
09:16 AM on 11/01/2011
Corporations control gov't. Gov't controls unions. Unions represent the working class. Something wrong with this picture?
01:41 PM on 11/01/2011
Hiker54,

Good Point
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Icantbelieveher
I'm for the separation of church and hate!
10:46 PM on 10/31/2011
I just read an article on why the public service employees were unionized in Ohio written by a former REPUBLICAN supreme court judge!!!!!! DOUGLAS: In the decade before the enactment of Ohio’s collective bargaining law in 1984, Ohio, for four years, led the nation in safety forces work stoppages. The reason was clear. When a city and its safety forces had a dispute concerning wages, working conditions, and adequate staffing, there was no way to resolve the dispute. That is why we passed the collective bargaining law. The law has worked. There has been no safety forces work stoppages in Ohio since the law was passed. It would be tragic for our communities to return to those dark days. That is what Senate Bill 5 — if it becomes law — would do. To fully protect our citizens and police officers and firefighters, Senate Bill 5 must be rejected.
11:16 PM on 10/31/2011
The Republican party didn't used to be completely crazy. It's a real shame.
Hiker54
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
09:20 AM on 11/01/2011
Tell me about it. I'm an independent and can't remember the last election that I voted all Dem or all Rep. The Rep party has moved so far right that it might not hold true this time.
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jsgaetano
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus
03:38 AM on 11/01/2011
Conservatives want anarchy. It's the only way they can fulfil their dream of destroying American and our freedoms.
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chadizzy
01:18 PM on 11/01/2011
I thought that what the OWS is doing?
10:14 PM on 10/31/2011
The union based minorities, like the OWS crowd, do not represent very many Americans in this country but they keep trying to give the impression that they represent 99% of Americans, or some other perverted and unsubstantiated claim. These people have created a bad impression across the board with their behavior starting in New York and most mature Americans are really not paying much attention to these demonstrators. We all understand the frustration with the economy and the lack of jobs, but they should be demonstrating in Washington, no where else. As to the Kasich bill in Ohio, it is primarily about he public service union employees who, in my opinion, should never have been allowed to unionize to start with, so I have no sympathy for any of them.
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Icantbelieveher
I'm for the separation of church and hate!
10:27 PM on 10/31/2011
I've heard they said the same thing about the Viet Nam protestors! As far as people paying attention to the OWS protestors, they appear to be growing in popularity and since the majority of Americans agree that wealth inequality is a problem in this country, I think that your words represent the minority of people in this country!
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windy33
11:51 PM on 10/31/2011
well give all the benefits you now so enjoy that the unions got for you.
I DON'T SEE YOU BITCHING ABOUT YOUR WAGES OR YOUR PAID VACATIONS, OR YOUR PAID HOLIDAYS, OR ANY OTHER BENEFITS YOU HAVE. SO GO THE UNIONS SO WILL GO YOUR BENEFITS. SO GO TELL YOUR BOSS YOU DON'T NEED ANY OF THE BENEFITS THAT THE UNIONS GOT LAWS PASSED FOR YOU TO HAVE. GIVE THEM UP YOU DON'T DEDERVE THEM.