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In Climate Debate, Governments Consider New Definitions Of Rich And Poor

Climate Change

By ARTHUR MAX   11/25/11 11:00 PM ET  AP

JOHANNESBURG -- As delegates gather in South Africa to plot the next big push against climate change, Western governments are saying it's time to move beyond traditional distinctions between industrial and developing countries and get China and other growing economies to accept legally binding curbs on greenhouse gases.

It will be a central theme for the 25,000 national officials, lobbyists, scientists and advocates gathering under U.N. auspices in the coastal city of Durban on Nov. 28. Their two weeks of negotiations will end with a meeting of government ministers from more than 100 countries.

The immediate focus is the Kyoto Protocol, the 1997 agreement requiring 37 industrialized countries to slash carbon emissions to 5 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. Each country has a binding target and faces penalties for falling short. The U.S., then and now the world's largest polluter per capita, refused to join Kyoto because it imposed no obligations on countries like China, which has since surpassed the U.S. in overall emissions.

Now, with the Kyoto pact's expiry date looming, poor countries want the signatories to accept further reductions in a second commitment period up to at least 2017.

"The Kyoto Protocol is a cornerstone of the climate change regime," and a second commitment period "is the central priority for Durban," says Jorge Arguello of Argentina, the chairman of the developing countries' negotiating bloc known as G77 plus China.

But with growing consensus, wealthy countries are saying they cannot give further pledges unless all others – or at least the major developing countries – accept commitments themselves that are equally binding.

The European Union is bringing a proposal to Durban calling for a timetable for everyone to make these commitments by 2015.

Separately, Norway and Australia set out a six-page proposal for all governments to adopt a phased process of scaling down emissions.

Japan, Canada and Russia, three key countries in the Kyoto deal, announced last year they will not sign up to a second commitment period. Russia has submitted a proposal calling for a review and periodic amendments to the criteria for being judged rich or poor under Kyoto's legal prescriptions.

"We need to discuss whether we can continue to divide the world in the traditional thinking of the North and the South, where the North has to commit to a binding form whereas the South will only have to commit in a voluntary form," Connie Hedegaard, the European commissioner on climate policies, told reporters this month.

It's an old debate that has been intensifying with the rapid growth of economies like those of China, India and some in Latin America and the wealth as well as high carbon emissions they generate.

The division of the globe into two unequal parts was embedded in the first climate convention adopted in 1992. At that time China was struggling to liberalize its economy, India was just opening its borders to international commerce, South Africa was breaking out of the apartheid era, and Brazil – the host of the Earth Summit where the convention was adopted – was an economic shambles with inflation topping 1,100 percent that year.

Everyone agrees that the few wealthy nations have the primary responsibility for reducing carbon emissions, since it was their industries that pumped carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for 200 years. Climate scientists say the accumulation of CO2 traps the Earth's heat, is already changing some weather patterns and agricultural conditions, and is heightening risks of devastating sea level rise.

The industrial countries – the U.S. chief among them – have long questioned whether those definitions of rich and poor, drawn up 20 years ago, should still apply. That was one reason why the U.S. backed out of the Kyoto Protocol.

The European Union also dismisses the poor countries' argument that, "you created the problem, now you fix it."

The EU is responsible for just 11 percent of global emissions, says the EU's Hedegaard, and it can't solve global warming without the help of those emitting the other 89 percent.

Despite their swelling national bank accounts, China, India, South Africa and others say they are still battling poverty and that tens of millions of their people lack electricity or running water.

To accept legal equality with wealthy countries would jeopardize their status as developing societies – even though few countries are doing more than China to rein in the growth of their emissions.

It is a world leader in producing wind and solar energy and has closed thousands of outdated and heavily polluting power plants, replacing many with cleaner-burning coal plants. Its fuel efficiency standard already surpasses the 35 miles per gallon (14.7 kilometers per liter) for passenger cars that the U.S. government hopes to reach in 2016.

And so the stalemate continues leading up to Durban.

"The North-South divide over historical responsibility still has more weight than the forward-looking approach of respective capabilities," says Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change.

Jennifer Morgan, climate analyst at the Washington, D.C.-based World Resources Institute, says serious discussions are going on behind the scenes over the European timetable plan, although it was not clear this week if an agreement was possible in Durban.

Other experts agree that China privately is showing more flexibility than in public.

If no deal can be concluded, Figueres said last month, a patchwork of interim arrangements may be needed to keep negotiations alive.

"What arrangements? We don't know yet. According to what rules? We don't know yet. Interim for how long? We don't know yet," she said.

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JOHANNESBURG -- As delegates gather in South Africa to plot the next big push against climate change, Western governments are saying it's time to move beyond traditional distinctions between industria...
JOHANNESBURG -- As delegates gather in South Africa to plot the next big push against climate change, Western governments are saying it's time to move beyond traditional distinctions between industria...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
blndgenie
12:51 PM on 11/28/2011
Canada is announcing they are ditching the Kyoto Agreement. Thanks to those excellent emails from Hansen, Mann and company showing the farce that AGW has always been. Algore will be devastated.
03:37 PM on 11/27/2011
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/scientists_in_revolt_against_global_warming.html

Global warming became a cause to save life on earth before it had a chance to become good science. The belief that fossil fuel use is an emergency destroying our planet by CO2 emissions took over the media and political arena by storm. The issue was politicized so quickly that the normal scientific process was stunted. We have never had a full, honest national debate on either the science or government policy issues.

Everyone "knows" that global warming is true. The public has no idea of the number of scientists -- precisely one thousand at last count of a congressional committee -- who believe that global warming is benign and natural, and that it ended in 1998. We have not been informed of the costs to our economy of discouraging fossil fuel development and promoting alternatives. The public need to know the choices being made on their behalf, and to have a say in the matter. We are constantly told that the scientific and policy debate on global warming is over. It has just begun.

What is never discussed is this: the theory of global warming has catastrophic implications for our economy and national security.
Genders
Love, Tolerance, Enlightenment
04:52 PM on 11/27/2011
Human activities emit 200 times the CO2 of all the volcanoes in the world.

Really, ya think that won't change the climate?

But let's just tax heavy metal pollution instead. That ends up being a very good proxy for fossil and nuke pollution in general.

Have hate problem with charge company for their garbage?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
chrisd3
Inconceivable!
07:51 PM on 11/27/2011
"precisely one thousand at last count of a congressio­nal committee "

Almost none of those have any climate science expertise. Many aren't even scientists. And, by the way, how many scientists have NOT signed that thing? Literally millions.

"We have never had a full, honest national debate on either the science or government policy issues"

A national debate is appropriate for policy but not science. Science is debated by scientists. Climate science has been vigorously debated for decades in the literature, just as it's supposed to be.

"[global warming] ended in 1998"

Anyone who's spent more than a few minutes studying climate science knows that 13 years isn't long enough to be meaningful. It's pure statistics--there's too much noise. And it hasn't stopped anyway:

http://bit.ly/mfnEc1
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
deweaver
Scientist, businessman, semi-retired
11:29 AM on 11/27/2011
Since all these countries need income to feed their government bureaucracies, why don't they propose a uniform carbon tax on all fossil carbon as it comes out of the ground? A carbon tax would solve the CO2 problem, but the down side is it would make the bureaucrats attending these conferences and their supporting eNGO's irrelevant? Unfortunately for them, solving problems can harm those who simply talk about solutions.
Genders
Love, Tolerance, Enlightenment
04:54 PM on 11/27/2011
You are bit overly cynical, but you probably are mostly correct too ;)

Getting all the countries to agree to any tax or fine for polluting the world is not easy. The USA is the biggest objector, and the biggest per person polluter by far.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MrBIgp
Maybe I'm wrong, but....
11:11 PM on 11/27/2011
I haven't seen any solutions for the c02 problem, just expensive, half baked measures.
10:58 AM on 11/27/2011
When I was a new mom I had a friend who was one of 5 boys, raised in a strict southern family. In his household there was one rule - if momma had to hear about it, everyone was in trouble. They called it "Alabama Rules". At first I thought this was horrendous, but over the years I have come to understand the wisdom. Fair is a relative thing, specific to each person and place, and sometimes the closest thing to fair is having the same rule as long as it is ENFORCED equally. In my friend's family it was - the belt for all five. Kyoto needs to be this simple, this stringent.
10:52 AM on 11/27/2011
1. If we will dry sea (as Aral) or cut forests (as in Zimbabwe) all around the world we will use cars, tractors, etc and of course, we will increase amount of GHG in atmosphere .
2. If we will use the same energy, to create new lakes, ponds, grow forests all around the world, we also increase amount of GHG in atmosphere.

Please try answer on question: "Will influence on climate be the same in these two cases?"

It is answer to anyone, who is speculate, that GHG are main players in nature.

Climate change is real!
Explanation of reason for climate change are wrong!

Scientists of climate change have their right for mistakes, but it makes them the most dangerous persons on the Earth. They recomend wrong tools to fight climate change to all Government in the world.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:30 AM on 11/27/2011
It seems to me, that those who agree on targets for the reduction of Carbon emissions, need to cut their emissions, and start putting tariffs on products from other countries depending on the Carbon emissions.

Obviously countries like Australia and the US are going to be the most heavily targetted in that kind of arrangement. Australia is however now moving towards reductions in emissions. The big sticking point is still the USA.
Genders
Love, Tolerance, Enlightenment
04:57 PM on 11/27/2011
Fair, but then we should put tariffs on Chinese for slavery and human rights. Maybe that's ok, but I do want to avoid a major trade war.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
08:05 PM on 11/27/2011
Actually, the tariffs would be kind to China at the moment, compared with to America.

I have a feeling, that the international community would have no problem slamming America's human rights record as well.
03:37 AM on 11/27/2011
“The U.S., then and now the world's largest polluter per capitaâ€

What is relevant for pollution issues is a nation's net pollution contribution per square unit of sovereign land area rather than the national gross per capita contribution. If a nation were to double its population and simultaneously cut its per capita pollution rate by 50%; then the actual amount of pollution being produced would be unchanged regardless of the 50% per capita 'improvement'. Also, any nation with extensive forests and grasslands that consume carbon has a far different effect on pollution levels than a predominately desert nation that absorbs little carbon - even if their per capita rates were the same. Canada and China are each sovereign over about the same 9% of the earth's surface - when comparing the pollution impact of the two countries, the difference in their per capita rates is irrelevant.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:31 AM on 11/27/2011
The only fair measure is per-capita. Would you really support a country like Australia with a population of 20 million, being allowed to emit the same amount as China with a population of 1.4 billion?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Michael D Ballantine
Former Presidential Candidate - Amer Elect 2012
10:01 AM on 11/27/2011
I'm thinking head count. I think we get to the same place but if we use head count then we can create a factor. Right now, we produce about 4.7 tonnes on average per person per year. The US is 17.8 and China is 5.8. If we make targets based on head counts then developing countries can increase production and developed countries must reduce it. Plant some trees and develop technologies to take it out of the air, you can over produce. Otherwise, you get hit with tariffs on your exports. That puts the burden on the country to find ways to reduce it rather than choose a one-size fits all plan. Production needs to drop to less than 3 tons per person per year. Ooops.
02:43 PM on 11/27/2011
China (9,976,140 sq km) is 23% larger than Australia (7,686,850 sq km) in land area; so they are not good choices for comparison. Canada, America and China are all within 4% of each other in the share of the earth over which they have sovereignty. The world impact of even minor changes in the per capita pollution production rate in China (or even America) is far more significant than a major per capita change in Canada. This is why measuring pollution in per sq km units is more meaningful than per capita. Pollution consumed is also significant when making comparisons - countries such a Canada have large forests that consume some of the pollutants that it produces; while Australia is largely desert. This is why net pollution production needs to be measured - ie national production minus consumption. There is already a nascent Carbon credit market - countries like Australia could sell the unused parts of their carbon emission share to countries like China.
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aforbes808
Naked is a state of mind.
01:53 AM on 11/27/2011
Buy the lie.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
chrisd3
Inconceivable!
07:58 PM on 11/27/2011
Sure, 98% of climate scientists, 85% of ALL scientists, and literally every national science academy on Earth are lying for no obvious reason. And increasing the Earth's primary noncondensing heat-trapping gas won't trap more heat.

You've bought the lie. It's not the one you think it is.

PS: Your microbio is misspelled.
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aforbes808
Naked is a state of mind.
08:47 PM on 11/28/2011
Thanks for the PS. I know that global climate change is real. Sorry if I gave the opposite impression. PAX
oilfield
small manufacturing business owner
12:47 AM on 11/27/2011
environmentalist are like alcoholics saying Jack Daniels is bad.....we have a thirst for power...and we need either coal, oil, natural gas, nuclear, hydro,wind, or solar......we have to have energy.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:33 AM on 11/27/2011
Even if it means our granchildren, and their granchildren will pay the price, whether that be death by starvation, or just the collapse of America.
oilfield
small manufacturing business owner
09:56 PM on 11/27/2011
mike, just log off and go off of the grid.....we are the problem. so pretending like your activities dont use power are hypocritical.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
WESmith
Just say no to gasoline
08:48 AM on 11/27/2011
Switching from coal and oil to alternative energy sources is like an alcoholic switching from vodka to gin. Do we HAVE to have energy? How much do we need? Seems we waste more energy than we use. Would we buy a gallon of milk, take it home and pour a quart of it on our livingroom carpet? That is what we do with most of the energy we purchase. Why not become energy efficient? Reduce our addiction to energy. Doing so will affect our pocketbooks. I know. I saved $100,000 over 28 years just by car pooling. It was simple and actually enjoyable. 3 out of four days, I slept, talked or read the paper instead of driving to/from work. I spent less time at gas stations (now I don't even go to gas stations). I spent less time and money replacing tires, brakes and changing oil, etc. I even didn't have to buy cars as often. All of the lights (LED) in my home run on a single 12V battery and a solar charger from Harbor Freight. Do we HAVE to purchase so much energy and then waste it? Is our thirst for power worth it or is it just an ego-building exercise?
oilfield
small manufacturing business owner
09:59 PM on 11/27/2011
you are on the internet...its a huge energy hog. its great that your are trying to limit your own....but there are a ton of renters in the country....until the tax laws change for energy efficiency on rental properties...yes, we will continue to pour some on the floor. 27 year depreciation cycles dont make sense for upgrades so not only will we need more energy, americans will have less money in their pockets.
08:39 PM on 11/26/2011
Let look on nine (9) properties of water, which could cool the atmosphere.

1. We need 539 kcal to evaporate 1 kg of water. It cool air close to surface of evaporation - oceans, seas, rivers, leaves of trees, bushes, grass...

2. Water vapor is lighter than most gases in air, it help convection forces to bring all (ALL) GASES UP.
3. PdV work stop convection forces around 500 m from sea level. You could see it in smoke, from chimney of power plants. In Green section of every magazine you could easy found this pictures.

4. Only partial condensation of water vapor release energy to heat parcel of surrounding air, including GHG. It property of water recreate convection. It helps bring all gases on next level UP from land or oceans.
5. Droplets of water in rain, as cleanest water take from atmosphere almost all particles of Black Carbon and others aerosol, and bring them to land, oceans. It process decrease heating the atmosphere by trapping direct sun radiation in Black Carbon.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:33 AM on 11/27/2011
Not again....
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StephenBP
What's he building in there?
07:36 AM on 11/27/2011
Mioffe smarter than all climate scientist.
Mioffe win all argument with broken English. Tie other side in nots.
Mioffe make factoid.
You decide.
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gallon
Those who fail to remember history are, um
09:14 AM on 11/27/2011
mioffe, on his trusty steed Rocinante, still searching. Still knocking off windmills.
10:15 AM on 11/27/2011
What are real reasons for climate change in region of Aral sea, and Zimbabwe, dear gallon?
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gallon
Those who fail to remember history are, um
10:32 AM on 11/27/2011
Climate change is global. Any regional changes are manifestations.
08:39 PM on 11/26/2011
6. Only new snow is cover soot on the old snow on the land and ice in oceans. It process increase reflection of direct sun radiation back to space, and only properties of water could provide it.
7. Droplets of water solved partially all gases, including GHG and bring them down as nutrition. Mostly properties of water clean atmosphere from GHG and reduce them.
8. 99% of water vapor condensed in upper troposphere. If we will remember, that these properties of water released energy in process and it energy close to space, we will understand it help cool atmosphere.
9. Band of IR radiation for H2O and CO2 is different. That’s mean, if CO2 present after upper troposphere, most of IR radiation from water vapor, which going to space do not trapped in CO2 molecules.
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LunaPark
Don't believe it until it's officially denied
08:13 PM on 11/26/2011
"Climate scientists say the accumulation of CO2 traps the Earth's heat, is already changing some weather patterns and agricultural conditions, and is heightening risks of devastating sea level rise."

Not so fast. The Journal Science just reported on a study that says CO2 climate sensitivity is overestimated. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15858603
banana republican
Provoking Progressives with unwelcome perspectives
08:36 PM on 11/26/2011
Nice try. But we're quite happy accepting climate change as real and something thats going to kill us all unless we make radical changes that will make us feel all warm and fuzzy inside. We're not interested in old or new 'scientific evidence' that muddies the water makes doubters out of belieivers. So please mind your own business. (Fan #205)
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09:55 PM on 11/26/2011
What kind of changes, and why would they make us feel "warm and fuzzy"?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
chrisd3
Inconceivable!
09:33 PM on 11/26/2011
One study puts the estimate toward the lower end of the IPCC's estimated range, that's all. Other studies have different numbers. Why the 'skeptic' community thinks this is big news is inexplicable.
11:25 AM on 11/27/2011
"Why the 'skeptic' community thinks this is big news is inexplicab­le. "

Oh, it's explicable all right. It involves the harvesting of tiny red fruit with pits.
08:10 PM on 11/26/2011
Too many people and too few resources.....
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:36 AM on 11/27/2011
And too much consumption by some of the people.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MrBIgp
Maybe I'm wrong, but....
11:39 PM on 11/27/2011
Like Al Gore.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
mhh310351
Roosevelt Democrat
07:56 PM on 11/26/2011
I have a new definition of rich and poor nations. Rich nations are those nations with Trade Surpluses!
Poor nations have large Trade Deficits!

poor nations should be able to add a tariff on products based on their CO2 footprint of manufacturing, transportation, and sustainability. They can share this money with nations in immediate need of help at the same time convince more nations to lower their CO2 footprint!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:38 AM on 11/27/2011
I think all nations need to start using the tariff on CO2 emissions. That doesn't mean that the richer nations shouldn't contribute to help the poorer nations develop non-polluting energy industries.
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stuart100s
I started with nothing, & still have most of it.
06:19 PM on 11/26/2011
I would like to know more about AGW, I haven't decided what I believe, other than I believe we are polluting the only planet that we currently have. What concerns me is that when ever you ask a question, the believers call you names like "denier". These are the same people that talk about AGW but never seem to actually do anything about AGW.

It reminds me of when I went to church and would ask questions. They called me names and told me "you just have to believe". That you have to have "faith". I didn't stick around very long.

I am concerned that the AGW debate/name calling will distract from what is factual. That too many people are causing too much pollution, and the earth cannot sustain at this rate. To all those that are about to post, to call me a name: I planted 4000 trees last year, and I am planting 2000 trees this spring. What are you doing?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheIndependenceParty
Cranky yankee and a rehabilitated ex-Republican
06:45 PM on 11/26/2011
Trust with your head what your hands are doing. The problem is that across the globe nations are harvesting trees at a phenominal rate. You are "paddling" in the right direction, but it is upstream. Keep up the good work and thank you.

As for AGW, there are clear signs it is occurring, and as a steward of the Earth as you have shown that you are, learning more as information becomes available will be crucial. But just as in religion, the field is littered with fraudsters and people who will pick your pocket while they twist your thoughts.

Several truths are unavoidable, no matter what some will say. The volume of Carbon in the atmospher has risen dramatically in modern times and precipitously in the last 100. Millions of years of carbon depositis are being burned by a world populus for transportation, cooking, commerce and living quarter heating and cooling.

That carbon is "burned" does not mean it disapears. It changes from coal, oil and gas, to Carbon Dioxide. The process is fully understood, but the volume has never been seen before.

And despite your good work there will be fewer trees at the end of this year, than when it began.

Fairly simple.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
WESmith
Just say no to gasoline
07:21 PM on 11/26/2011
You are on the right track. We can't "fix" Climate Change. The global temperatures are rising and we can't do a thing about it except live with the consequences. We can repair some of the damage we have done (and continue) to the planet as you are doing. Another thing is to become energy efficient. This will not only benefit the environment, it will benefit our pocketbook
AGW has become a religion, a finger pointing exercise to justify those that are doing nothing.
Perhaps to others it is a political weapon. We need to return to environmentalism. Each and everyone of us affects the environment in a bad way. We need to mitigate our damage.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MikeWebster
Always happy.
06:40 AM on 11/27/2011
We need to stop warming, even though we may not be able to reverse it in the short term. This is because there is no guarantee that we will be able to live with the change, and evidence that as a species we are in great danger of extinction from it.