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Health Care Reform Hearings: Court Weighing Whether Law Can Survive Without Individual Mandate

By MARK SHERMAN 03/28/12 07:19 PM ET AP

Health Care Reform Hearings

WASHINGTON -- Concluding three days of fervent, public disagreement, a Supreme Court seemingly split over ideology will now wrestle in private about whether to strike down key parts or even all of President Barack Obama's historic health care law. The justices' decision, due this June, will affect the way virtually every American receives and pays for care.

The court wrapped up public arguments Wednesday on the overhaul, which is designed to extend health insurance to most of the 50 million Americans now without it. The first and biggest issue the justices must decide is whether the centerpiece of the law, the requirement that nearly all Americans carry insurance or pay a penalty, is constitutional.

Wednesday's argument time was unusual in that it assumed a negative answer to that central question. What should happen to other provisions, the justices and lawyers debated, if the court strikes down the requirement? If the justices are following their normal practice, they had not even met to take a preliminary vote in the case before all argument concluded.

Questions at the court this week days showed a strong ideological division between the liberal justices who seem inclined to uphold the law in its entirety and the conservative justices whose skepticism about Congress' power to force people to buy insurance suggests deep trouble for the insurance requirement, and possibly the entire law.

The divide on the court reflects a similar split in public opinion about the law, which Congress approved two years ago when Democrats controlled both houses. The justices' decision is sure to become a significant part of this year's presidential and congressional election campaigns, in which Republicans have relentlessly attacked the law.

Both liberal and conservative justices appeared on Wednesday to accept the administration's argument that at least two important insurance changes are so closely tied to the must-have-coverage requirement that they could not survive without it: provisions requiring insurers to cover people regardless of their existing medical problems and limiting how much those companies can charge in premiums based on a person's age or health.

Less clear was whether the court would conclude the entire law, with its hundreds of unrelated provisions, would have to be cast aside.

The justices also spent part of the day considering a challenge by 26 states to the expansion of the federal-state Medicaid program for low-income Americans – an important feature which alone was expected to extend coverage to 15 million people and which no lower court has rejected.

Solicitor General Donald Verrilli Jr. took a few seconds at the end of the Medicaid argument to make a final plea for the court to uphold the entire law, which he said would "secure the blessings of liberty" for millions of Americans by providing them with affordable health care.

Verrilli told the court that Congress had made a policy decision to fight the high cost of medical care through the new law. "I would urge the court to respect that judgment," he said.

Paul Clement, the lawyer for the states challenging the law, retorted that it would be a strange definition of liberty to make people who may not want it buy health care insurance. And he called Congress' threat to cut all Medicaid funding from states that refuse to expand the program "a direct threat to our federalism."

Not since 2000, when the court resolved the Bush v. Gore dispute over Florida election returns that sealed George W. Bush's election as president has a Supreme Court case drawn so much attention.

In their questions Wednesday, liberal justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer took issue with Clement, who was asking that the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act be tossed out in its entirety.

"What's wrong with leaving this in the hands of those who should be fixing this?" asked Sotomayor, referring to Congress.

Chief Justice John Roberts also spoke about parts of the law that "have nothing to do with any of the things we are" talking about.

For example, Ginsburg observed that the act deals with issues such as black lung disease.

"Why make Congress redo those?" she asked. "There are many things" that have "nothing to do with affordable health care."

But Clement said the court would be leaving "a hollow shell" if it decided to excise the several key provisions. "The rest of the law cannot stand," he contended.

Roberts and Justice Anthony Kennedy also asked hard questions of Deputy Solicitor General Edwin Kneedler that indicated they are at least considering Clement's arguments. Kneedler said that the only other provisions the court should kill in the event the mandate is stricken are the two that bar refusing coverage to sick people and limiting the charges to old or sick people.

Justice Antonin Scalia suggested many members of Congress might not have voted for the bill without the central provisions, and he said the court should not go through each and every page to sort out what stays and what goes.

"What happened to the Eighth Amendment?" Scalia asked, referring to the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment. "You really expect us to go through 2,700 pages?"

In the afternoon arguments, the liberal justices made clear they would vote to uphold the Medicaid expansion, for which the federal government would pay almost all the costs.

Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, Ginsburg and Breyer voiced strong disagreement with the states' contention that the expansion of the joint state-federal program would be unconstitutionally coercive.

"Why is a big gift from the federal government a matter of coercion?" Kagan asked.

Even Roberts joined his liberal colleagues in questioning Clement about the states' argument that that the expansion comes with too many strings.

"Well, why isn't that a consequence of how willing they have been since the New Deal to take the federal government's money? And it seems to me that they have compromised their status as independent sovereigns because they are so dependent on what the federal government has done, they should not be surprised that the federal government having attached the – they tied the strings, they shouldn't be surprised if the federal government isn't going to start pulling them," Roberts said.

A colorful assembly of demonstrators sounded off pro and con outside the marble court building all three days, though Wednesday's crowd was the smallest.

Supporters of the law held a morning news conference to stress the importance of Medicaid. And, marching on the sidewalk outside the court, they repeated chants they had used the previous two days, including "Ho, ho, hey, hey, Obamacare is here to stay." Most of their group departed not long after arguments began inside.

Opponents of the law, including Susan Clark of Santa Monica, Calif., also stood outside the court. Clark, who was wearing a three-cornered colonial-style hat, carried a sign that read "Obamacare a disaster in every way!"

"Freedom, yes. Obamacare, no," other opponents chanted.

___

Associated Press writers Jesse J. Holland, Pete Yost and Jessica Gresko contributed to this report.

Earlier on HuffPost:

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WASHINGTON -- Concluding three days of fervent, public disagreement, a Supreme Court seemingly split over ideology will now wrestle in private about whether to strike down key parts or even all of Pre...
WASHINGTON -- Concluding three days of fervent, public disagreement, a Supreme Court seemingly split over ideology will now wrestle in private about whether to strike down key parts or even all of Pre...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
intranautt
The evolution of history continues
03:50 AM on 04/03/2012
My respect for the Supreme Court is beginning to wain. I am not for the mandate, but whatever the decision I hope it is based on neutrality as they so represent by remaining seated at a state of the union address. All I see is a stripping of individual rights, without due process of law. I see decisions based on party affiliation,not neutrality. I think it would be good for the country to mandate an eight year term for the court judges and that any decision can be challenged by Congress.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
09:46 AM on 03/30/2012
Perhaps it is time to look at the reality of this "BILL". It is 2700 pages of special interests and some Judas Goat sections that anyone in DC knew would be taken down by the Court, The thing was a fiasco from day one, all knew it would get to SC before elections, and how SCOTUS that elected bush would rule.
This is just another example of how our ruling elected class's passed something that was pretty much useless as knew it would fail, but gave enough to show a mediocre amount of concern. Moment "pubic option" yanked and more welfare for already rich insurance companies profits enshrined, again, all was well.
None ask or discuss how rest of industrial world, Canada does it, but none ask how come no Canadian banks failed either. The game is rigged, 40 year war on citizens about over, as not many battles left to go, sorry commoners, but you lost, You dumbed down eduction, you dumbed down your vote to hot button issues, you know more of sports/celebs stats the government. USA has lost lead in everything, other then ill informed spoiled slovenly citizens
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Abraham1771
Polymath Rationalist
12:05 AM on 03/30/2012
To bad the right wing can nor read. Because in the "First" founding document it says loud and clear: you Americans should listen to what other countries have figured out.

European Bakers, Shoemakers, and in general communities have figured out by the beginning of the 17th century, that health insurance (they may have called it mutual sickness funds, as Germans wont to call it still today) only works if it is mandatory! If this is unconstitutional, the constitution is wrong and contradicts the Declaration of Independence!

Looking at the US desaster in making, German (and Japanese) politicians are gleefully happy.

Not only will the US continue to fight the Unions, which are the foundation of the German and Japanese dominance in manufacturing, in addition the health care (or better lack thereof) in the US will ensure Germans will continue to be able to successfully build BMWs at $45/hour, while GM will go bankrupt again at $18/hour. Bravo Koch Brothers and Goldman Sachs: benefactors of Germany (and Japan).

And Germany and Japan are doing all this without drilling for one drop of oil or gas - because they do not have any. While the US goes down further the path to be a 3rd world country depending on drilling and mining! Some Exceptionalism! Which is not even mentioned in the Constitution. Not even once! And Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Washington , and ... would turn in their graves if they would know about Exceptionalism.
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09:52 AM on 03/30/2012
Shhh the nation does not want the truths as reality seems to upset many, which will only increase the sale of prescription drugs, already as 14-19 per citizen. Amusing when some discuss China and find that in China even WalMart is unionized as is all their auto plants.
Guess latest best example of how stupid most have become is when Romney on TV said he wants ALL offshore corp profits removed from taxes as "they will bring home the money and invest it in USA to create jobs". Note Corp USA now setting on THREE trillion cash profits waiting for law to change 35% to 5% tax as did under bush, which actually cost USA jobs. Now why anyone making millions tax free offshore would then build USA business that is taxed, when offshore free, escapes me. But increasingly dumbed down and increasingly (never discussed) racists, well anything OK to get that black guy out of WH????
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rickroland
Two Parties, Same Crap
08:04 PM on 03/29/2012
Obama and the Democrats really put their foot in it, up to their hips, on attempting to defend ObamaCare.

Not only will the law be ruled unconstitutional by the Supremes this June, but there is a great possibility that the precedent set by Wickard v. Filburn will be either toned down, greatly diminished or complete decimated due to the Federal government attempting to use it as a case to defend ObamaCare.

This would start the ball rolling for getting the Federal government trimmed back to a much smaller and more manageable entity, to the great benefit of the citizenry as a whole.

Yes, that's right, I can almost hear the wails and gnashing of teeth from those who count on the power and money of the Federal government to create ever more intrusive laws and regulations. And, when those wails and that teeth gnashing occurs in reality, come June 2012, the rest of the country will rejoice and look forward to a brighter and freer future.
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09:59 AM on 03/30/2012
Yep make the upper end tax cuts perm, roll down that 15% billionaire rate to 10% and what we do with those that cannot afford HC, none seem able to discuss. I am sure many want to be "Free" to pollute, swindle with high interest rates, tax free offshore profits and other lovely little such "Freedoms", and increase the real wealth gap even further, Perhaps along way drive USA eduction down from 25th world wide to 40th and put more of the flat earth creator stuff out there. Somehow
this vengeance filled Right seems to make the Taliban look like boyscout s when it come to destruction of middle and lower classes over the past 40 year war they waged on USA citizens. Yep one million medical bankruptcy's per year in USA< 40,000 die from lack of HC, many losing HC for more corp profits, and the hounds of the republican hate pac(k)'s howl and bay about "Freedoms"?
04:11 PM on 04/04/2012
Smartest comment, I've read all day! Fanned!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
womanwithstixs
Just because you're paranoid
05:26 PM on 03/29/2012
They are asking the Court to make a radical ruling that not only invalidates Congress means of exercising market regulation, but Congress express authority to regulate the market at all. If you do not challenge Congress' authority to legislate insurance regulations but challenge the manner in which it is instituting that authority and then turn around and say that such challenge should also invalidate the regulatory authority that you did not challenge, there's a disconnect.
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rickroland
Two Parties, Same Crap
08:05 PM on 03/29/2012
The Commerce Clause gives Congress no such power, it is simply to cover interstate commerce so that the states do not impose tariffs and duties and other such nonsense on products and other things moving into or through other states. That's it, that's all the Commerce Clause is for. The attempt to make it more than that is about to be dialed back quite a few notches, taking the precedent of Wickard v. Filburn right along with it!
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10:01 AM on 03/30/2012
I might wonder how come states can regulate insurance when it is from out of state firms whose only real presence is a agent?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
womanwithstixs
Just because you're paranoid
05:11 PM on 03/29/2012
Let’s take a look, if you will, at the Second Amendment of the Constitution, which protects every American’s right to shoot another American. It says nothing about giving the person who is shot health insurance to prevent him from dying. This cherished constitutional right to shoot people and make them dead is currently recognized in all fifty states, most recently Florida.

In commenting on the Affordable Care Act this week, Justice Samuel Alito compared the Obama healthcare plan to burial insurance. Coincidentally, burial insurance is the Republican healthcare plan, and one that we enthusiastically support. Under this plan, every American would be mandated to buy a coffin from one of our member-owned and operated funeral homes. May we recommend the Peaceful Valley Royale,â„¢ a luxury mahogany casket with sienna satin interior and the finest imitation antique nickel handles ($2899).

From the Borowitz Report....I love it!
http://www.borowitzreport.com/
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
womanwithstixs
Just because you're paranoid
04:27 PM on 03/29/2012
A large part of how the court will decide the case will depend on whether or not they defer to Congress' finding that the individual responsibility provision was 'necessary and proper' in order to effectuate the insurance regulations that is opponents agree are within the authority of Congress namely the provisions that guarantee acceptance (guaranteed issue) and prohibit health status based discrimination (community rating). The Constitution allows Congress to do what is necessary and proper in order to institute a legitimate exercise of its powers. And I think that the opponents, in that opening statement, just spilled the beans that it is indeed necessary and proper.

"Congress found that the individual mandate was essential to their [community rating and guaranteed issue regulations'] operation." Sounds an awful lot like they agree with Congress' finding that the individual mandate is necessary.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
womanwithstixs
Just because you're paranoid
04:24 PM on 03/29/2012
The Supreme Court heard arguments on two things: whether, if the individual mandate was struck down as unconstitutional (I don't think that is going to happen), any part of the rest of the law could stand. In arguing that it couldn't, the opponents conceded that the mandate was in fact Constitutional, right out of the gate and in almost so many words. Paul Clement, arguing for Florida on the side of the challengers, opened with the following:

If the individual mandate is unconstitutional, then the rest of the Act cannot stand. As Congress found and the Federal Government concedes, the community rating and guaranteed-issue provisions of the Act cannot stand without the individual mandate. Congress found that the individual mandate was essential to their operation. And not only can guaranteed-issue and community-rating not stand, not operate in the manner that Congress intended, they would actually counteract Congress's basic goal of providing patient protection but also affordable care.
03:58 PM on 03/29/2012
If the Supreme Court strikes down this law, then I think it'll only prove just how the court is bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers and corporations (Citizens United). Where does it say in the Constitution that corporations are people? If they're people, then they should be charged with murder for the BP "accident".
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03:46 PM on 03/29/2012
The letter of the law would be that it would all get thrown out because Congress did not include a severability clause. And because they did not include it, it means they intended for it stand on its own. The letter of the law is Congress's intent. But we know some do not like laws, some don't like The Constitution, so we will have to wait and see.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mydian01
two by two, hands of blue.
03:18 PM on 03/29/2012
if a republicans president had signed this bill, we would not be argueing about it.
03:25 PM on 03/29/2012
True, true.
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03:31 PM on 03/29/2012
If an republican president had signed the bill he would, by diffinition, not be a republican. At best a wolf in sheeps clothing.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Mydian01
two by two, hands of blue.
03:35 PM on 03/29/2012
buts its a republican plan.. the republicans came up with the individual mandate as a way to force personal responcibility on everybody.. its as republican as it gets.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
PWM
Eisenhower Republican. Liberalism = Liberty
01:19 AM on 04/12/2012
Really. So Mitt is not a republican as his healthcare plan is the model for the Obama one.
03:14 PM on 03/29/2012
Why do we object to the mandate of buying health insurance and not the mandate of having to buy car insurance?
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03:29 PM on 03/29/2012
Because you have the choice of not driving a car, giving the car owner the option to opt out. The only way to opt out of the health care act would be to kill yourself.
04:25 PM on 03/29/2012
With republicans in charge, people will die sooner, because they don't have a health care plan for everybody. Listen to Willard's interview with Jay Leno. His attitude is "You're SOL". Ryan/Rubio plan will gut Medicare and Medicaid, so where is their help for the middle class and poor?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
womanwithstixs
Just because you're paranoid
05:04 PM on 03/29/2012
If you don't own a car and want to hold on to your driver's license you have to buy car insurance even though there is no car. This is in Florida
03:04 PM on 03/29/2012
Why is this an issue? i mean if this was unconstitutional would education also have to be questioned? For example, If i think that public education is wrong and i decide to home-school my children I still have to pay for public education! Everyone who pays taxes pays for it! Regardless of your viewpoint! Every year 40000 people die because they have no health insurance. That's like having a little over 13 9/11s every year!
We live in a first world nation, yet we have 46 million Americans in poverty. What the heck people! We are falling behind other nations, we aren't #1 anymore. And Health care, and other programs will help everybody and also help our future! And we eventually in the end run can become #1 again.
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rickroland
Two Parties, Same Crap
08:11 PM on 03/29/2012
Education is a state's right issue, try again.
05:45 PM on 03/30/2012
That's not the point.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
PWM
Eisenhower Republican. Liberalism = Liberty
01:22 AM on 04/12/2012
You missed the point.
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Bushido08
Spirit of a Warrior
02:51 PM on 03/29/2012
My only question here is, if the supreme court shoots down this program won't they also have to eventually look at both Social Security and Medicare as well? If you are going to argue that the government can't mandate this then how can they mandate Social Security and Medicare. And for the pundits who are against "Obamacare" that call it socialism, then isn't Social Security and Medicare also? If you want to get a Republican, particularly one that is retired and drawing these benefits fired up, ask that question and watch what happens :-)
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RRonin
Fortune favors the brave
03:06 PM on 03/29/2012
This is the same Court that issued the far-ranging, 90 years of precedent shattering, "Corporations have the same civil rights as you and me" Citizen's United Ruling. There's no telling what unexamined territory this court might expand it's ruling into, including Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security.
03:29 PM on 03/29/2012
All the more reasons to vote Democrat this fall, so President Obama can appoint another SC judge. Kennedy, Bader-Ginsburg, and Breyer look like they might be ready to retire.
03:31 PM on 03/29/2012
But of course, they're the left leaning judges. I think they are more fair than the conservative judges. The conservative judges seem more interested in looking out for the corporations. Why else would they be concerned about putting too much burden on the insurance companies the other day.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
jordan2
Constitution...See:The Originalist Perspective
03:54 PM on 03/29/2012
You hit the nail on the head with this

they also have to eventually look at both Social Security and Medicare as well

If I recall it was a liberal court that allowed that to happen, and it's my opinion that the government was wrong to force us into THEIR retirement program.
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Bushido08
Spirit of a Warrior
07:02 PM on 03/29/2012
jordan2 ...I couldn't agree more. I personally have done very well for myself and need neither program other than to support those that do. I think younger people could also argue that they know, atleast social security, won't be there when the are ready to retire yet they are forced to pay in. And I've never understand how teachers (there maybe others) got an exemption of paying social security tax. Does anyone out there know for certain?
02:49 PM on 03/29/2012
Ok, no healthcare move along nothing to see here...
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
opus1dog
I'm anti-stupidity
03:15 PM on 03/29/2012
Certainly. You cons take a few hopeful sound bites and enjoy them as major victories and nothing even has transpired; is it that desperate out there?
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
PWM
Eisenhower Republican. Liberalism = Liberty
01:23 AM on 04/12/2012
So you hate your countrymen and countrywomen.