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George Zimmerman's Notoriety Raises Concerns For Fair Trial

Posted: 04/13/2012 11:40 am Updated: 04/13/2012 5:47 pm

George Zimmerman, accused of murdering unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, was once an anonymous loan officer in a Florida suburb. He is now a reviled symbol of racial profiling, vigilante justice and everything broken about race relations in America.

Whether or not Zimmerman deserves that onus, a pending trial may be a vehicle for the nation to sort publicly through some of these issues. But on a personal level, Zimmerman has been the focus of so much media coverage and extraordinary public vitriol that legal experts say an impartial jury may be difficult to find to weigh his claim of self-defense for the shooting.

"We have to worry about his ability to get a fair trial," said Gabriel J. Chin, a law professor at the University of California, Davis. "There is a risk that he's convicted based on media impressions and popular sentiments rather than evidence."

Angela Corey, the special prosecutor in the case, denied that public pressure had any bearing on her decision to charge Zimmerman with second-degree murder, which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. In a charging document filed on Thursday, state prosecutors said Zimmerman pursued Martin and provoked the confrontation that led to his death.

Some legal observers said a manslaughter charge might be more appropriate, given what is publicly known about the case. "For murder two, I think it's totally overkill," said Joseph Benfante, a prominent Manhattan defense attorney who is not directly involved in the case.

To convict on a murder charge requires the prosecutor to prove a defendant's intent to kill, an element that may be difficult to establish in Martin's death, Benfante said. Other experts, however, said the murder charge suggests that prosecutors have evidence that shows Zimmerman was the aggressor in the altercation, the full details of which have been unknown to the public.

"We haven't seen the full picture yet," said Kenneth Nunn, a professor at the University of Florida Levin College of Law.

Zimmerman can seek a bail hearing under Florida law, but his notoriety has diminished his chances for release, at least in the immediate future. On Thursday, Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's defense attorney, said he would wait at least a few weeks before seeking bail, in an attempt to "calm this case down."

Zimmerman's arrest and incarceration on Wednesday marked the beginning of a new chapter in a case that has raised questions about much more than the murky circumstances around the killing of an unarmed teenager. For many, the case has come to represent all of the injustices faced not just by blacks in Sanford but by minority communities across the country, where issues of racial profiling, 'stop and frisk' searches and police brutality remain hot button issues.

Without mass rallies and media attention, the shooting would have very likely gone unremarked on the local crime blotter. Instead, Martin's case has become a cause, a national phenomenon with competing interests often drawn along racial lines. Meanwhile, the case could prove pivotal in the fight to repeal Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground laws.

In the process, Zimmerman's life has been threatened, and lawyers and national media have dragged the skeletons of Zimmerman's violent past out into the light. Posters made from a 2005 mugshot of Zimmerman -- looking chubby and bleary-eyed in a jail-issued orange jumpsuit -- have been hoisted at rallies and protests.

Everyone from the president of the United States to former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson have weighed in on the case, with Tyson saying of Zimmerman in an interview Thursday with Yahoo Sports that "it's a disgrace that man hasn't been shot yet."

Some say that the conduct of the Sanford Police Department, which opted not to charge Zimmerman initially and has long been a source of angst for Sanford's black community, has also added kindling to the fire by mishandling aspects of the investigation.

"Had [Zimmerman] been arrested from the start, we would not know his name," said Goldie Taylor, a cultural critic and cable news pundit with MSNBC. "We also would not have known the name Trayvon Martin. I think the uproar around this is really sparked by what was by all accounts an abbreviated investigation."

Local jurors are likely to be aware of at least some, if not all, of the controversy surrounding Zimmerman. And it may predispose them, analysts say, to think the worst.

"When you have a racially charged case, you never know what the jury's going to do," said Benefante. "They could easily hit him with the max."

Zimmerman's attorney could seek a change of venue, a motion that would take the case out of Seminole County, the epicenter of publicity and where public scrutiny has been most intense. His attorney has not yet made public any plans to do so.

Related on HuffPost:

FOLLOW BLACK VOICES

George Zimmerman, accused of murdering unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, was once an anonymous loan officer in a Florida suburb. He is now a reviled symbol of racial profiling, vigilante justice and ev...
George Zimmerman, accused of murdering unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, was once an anonymous loan officer in a Florida suburb. He is now a reviled symbol of racial profiling, vigilante justice and ev...
 
 
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10:05 AM on 04/25/2012
Zimmerman claims Treyvon banged his head on the ground but think about this for a minute... Zimmerman had a clean shaved head so their wouldn't have been any hair to grab onto and so Treyvon would have had to place his hand in a position where his knuckles would have been behind Zimmermans head causing them to have abrasions, if Treyvon had grabbed Zimmerman by the neck Treyvon should yet again have abrasions on his knuckles. Zimmerman recieved the cuts on his head because his head was laying on top of the gravel in the street so each blow he received while Treyvon was fighting for his life his head scraped and slid against the gravel.
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dobermanmacleod
Immortality first, and everything else second
12:38 AM on 04/25/2012
I wish GZ gets a fair trial. 2nd degree murder seems an prosecutor overreach that could help GZ. Above all I want justice for TM, but not at the cost of injustice. I predict GZ does not get found guilty of 2nd degree murder, and if he doesn't wimp out and agree to a plea bargain on a lesser charge there will be a big riot upon his acquittal. Shame on some in the news media for being at the head of a virtual lynch mob. Furthermore, some think that TM would have been justified assaulting GZ, and/or GZ would have still been at fault even if he was being assaulted by TM. IT IS NOT OK TO ASSAULT SOMEONE WHO IS SIMPLY FULFILLING THE ROLE OF NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PATROL.
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VTya
youcan'tfoolallthepeopleallthetime
12:09 AM on 04/22/2012
Trayvon didn't get a fair trial ... oops I forget he didn't commit a crime ... unless you count walking while black with Skittles and iced tea a crime.

So much concern for "poor" George Zimmerman.
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freedom is right
Turn Right for Freedom!
04:28 PM on 04/20/2012
@ alexandra23.. you asked.. "Why do you keep referring to Zimmerman's injuries which have not been verified? You are simply repeating what Zimmerman claims happened, and you keep doing that over and over again. Until there is credible, independent evidence that Zimmerman, in fact, suffered injuries, your repeating his allegations does not make them true."

That is such an EASY question and I will be glad to answer.. and I hope you will actually listen.. I keep referring to GZ's injuries because they HAVE been "independently" addressed.. by the police, including the POLICE REPORT, by the emt's who treated him at the scene, by police video, by the witness who SAW him getting his head bashed against the sidewalk, by clearly audible screams for help that perfectly match what a person would do if they were getting their head repeatedly bashed against concrete.. and now this.. http://gothamist.com/2012/04/20/new_photo_shows_george_zimmermans_h.php

What do YOU have to question all of this?? If you can give better explanations, then I'll retract my accusations of yours and others absolute ignorance, bias and complete lack of objectivity. And the fact that you all have been absolute PAWNS by the liberal media.
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David Abramo
Innocent till proven guilty
09:14 PM on 04/20/2012
Freedom is right,
Any rebuttal Alexandra23. can you see thru all the racist hype. Surely, after reading and seeing the evidence layed out for you.. maybe GZ is telling the truth? Can you muster a maybe. I am convinced that TM was attempting to inflict bodily harm upon GZ with some degree of success. Unfortunately, GZ acted with legal lethal force ending the attack.

It is a very tragic encounter TM did not deserve to die. But to ignore the evidence and attempt to victimize GZ would be double trouble. NOT GUILTY of Murder2. Self defense.
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VTya
youcan'tfoolallthepeopleallthetime
12:20 AM on 04/22/2012
I'm sorry Tray didn't knock Zimmerman out and get away ... but then we know he would have been in jail for assault ... no bail, or Stand Your Ground for him.

Our Country is still in denial about racist stereotyping. Some Whites are ok with the murder of innocent Blacks and will spin any number of arguments to justify it.
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01:02 PM on 04/20/2012
sunnydayz20118,

Yes, I know that definition of loitering. Are you know suggesting that Trayvon Martin was loitering? I might remind you have he was breaking no laws.
04:28 PM on 04/20/2012
I wasn't suggesting anything seeing as the discussion in regard to loitering had nothing to do with this case, however, since you ask..."just wandering around staring at houses..." could certainly have been perceived as loitering (not that he was loitering) to anyone who didn't recognize him as being from the neighborhood.
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freedom is right
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04:29 PM on 04/20/2012
And neither was GZ.
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08:50 PM on 04/20/2012
No, GZ was profiling, stalking, and hunting to kill with his loaded 9MM.
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ibwilliamsi
Why'd they mod me this time?
10:36 AM on 04/20/2012
"When you have a racially charged case, you never know what the jury's going to do," said Benefante. "They could easily hit him with the max."

How'd that work out for OJ and Rodney King. Anyone remember?
sergiofrankie
The cruelest lies are often told in silence
06:42 AM on 04/20/2012
I find it amusing that many who have posted on this thread have posted so much drivle on others like the six year old being restrained with handcuffs or the kid in Yonkers. I guess you people are not taught responsibility at home because its someone elses fault regardless of actions. These situations are the reason behind profilings because as a race most show very little tolerance, patience, respect for the law or evidence.
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Hollyjack52
07:35 AM on 04/20/2012
Pot meet kettle...
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FrankInCarson
trickle down falls on those under the latrine!
10:19 PM on 04/18/2012
This is a blatant attempt to move the case to a nearly "all white" county where 100% of the juror pool will be all white. This is the strategy used by the attorneys for the cops who beat Rodney King. After they moved the trial to Simi Valley, they were guaranteed a not guilty verdict. The same attempt is being tried here. A dead black man + a white defendant + all white jury = innocent.
10:57 PM on 04/18/2012
After reading about Judge Lester I Can't agree. Judge Lester has been on the bench for 15 years and has been noted for moving things along quickly and handing down maximum penalties (including death). He's no pushover. O'Mara would have been better off with Judge Reckseidler but I understand the conflict. The Rodney king beating trial was not moved to Simi valley to guarantee anything but a fair trial. If you knew all of the facts you would see why the officers were acquitted. The Feds came in because of the riots and only convicted Stacey and Larry on civil rights violatons. (30 mo sentences) and all others were not charged. Rodney Kings own passengers admitted that Rodney was under the influence, belligerent and combative with officers. The tape was very incomplete (not from start to finish) so the whole truth wasn't known till it went to trial, just like this case. no one will know the whole truth unless it goes to trial or if it goes to trial. when it comes to Rodney King, where is Rodney today? Still the same old Rodney is where. always in trouble and still a drug addict.
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02:23 PM on 04/19/2012
Too many eyes on this so I'm not concerned right now. Yes, as always, they will try to eliminate all the black jurors. We all know how this works.

If they do that, and the system does not work.... Then I'm guessing big problems will ensue. Either way, I'm also guessing that his quality of life will be awful (inside or outside of jail)

The killer ruined his own life through his actions and Florida destroyed their image with a stupid law and failure to properly investigate a killing. I was on the phone earlier with some folks in Europe. Many groups have already canceled their vacation plans to FL. Others that I know in the US won't go to Florida on principle alone due to the SYG law. I feel the same way.

Florida created a mess. Look at the people that created the law and allowed someone like the killer to own a 9MM.
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FrankInCarson
trickle down falls on those under the latrine!
04:11 PM on 04/19/2012
Yes. yes. I agree. Florida created a mess that will cost millions in tourist dollars. I think the way forward is for groups like the Color of Change and others promote a boycott to states who have these laws on their books. I know many poor persons who work in the tourist industry will feel the pain, but in the long run this is the only way to deal with this awful legislation.
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07:58 PM on 04/19/2012
I agree 100%.
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
catmandoozy
Fed up with gullibility...
06:28 PM on 04/18/2012
It's so amusing to see people proclaiming that George Zimmerman was a Neighborhood Watch Volunteer so that automatically bestowed upon him the authority to profile, follow, confront and kill and unarmed citizen who was doing nothing illegal.

This wrong-headed notion that Zimmerman was a "suddenly deputized Law Enforcement Official" who had every right to Stalk and Shoot anyone he thought might be "suspicious" is ludicrous.

If we're going to allow armed Wannabe Cops to do our policing for us if they want to...or perhaps even have a twisted NEED to do so...why bother to pay for the Real, Legitimate Police Officers....? Seems like a waste of money and resources.
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freedom is right
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08:45 PM on 04/18/2012
oh sigh!! Where does ANYONE claim that GZ had the "authority" to "kill" anyone?? Please get a clue. GZ had a right to defend himself from an aggressive PHYSICAL attack. THAT's what the people you are arguing with are claiming. It is that simple!
09:30 PM on 04/18/2012
Exactly, freedom.

Catmandoozy's comment would imply Zimmerman walked up to Martin and simply shot him in the chest. While "eyewitness" accounts differ as to who was on top of whom...they all report a struggle between the two before the fatal shot was fired.
catmandoozy
Fed up with gullibility...
09:50 PM on 04/18/2012
Yup. An attack he brought upon himself. Willfully. Happily even.

Profile...
Follow...
Confront...
Kill...
Equals = Murder Charges

You're welcome.
09:09 PM on 04/18/2012
more childish rants based on ignorance. You have already convicted george in your tiny little mind, but it won't fly in court. None of what you said is true just like your other meaningless dribble on your other posts....Whne this gets dismissed or ends in Acquittal you might grow up.
catmandoozy
Fed up with gullibility...
09:46 PM on 04/18/2012
He may very well be acquitted. After all, it's Florida and they let the obviously guilty Casey Anthony walk away. It doesn't mean she wasn't guilty. And Zimmerman is guilty of murder as well.

You're a P!$$-POOR excuse for a Law Enforcement Official. I hope you were ly.ing about being a former cop.
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White Raven
Eyeballs are tasty
01:46 AM on 04/18/2012
So let me get this straight...

The media has done its best to poison as much of the country as possible against Zimmerman in an effort to try and convict him in the court of public opinion through various means, like giving Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson face time over it, editing the audio recording of the 911 call to make Zimmerman sound like he was racially profiling, and engaging in various antics such as calling Zimmerman a "white hispanic" and repeatedly saying the Sanford PD didn't file charges when they did, but the charges were actually denied.

And now the media is reporting about how its misconduct is itself a story.

I have, in multiple venues, compared the Zimmerman/Martin case to the Hunger Games. This is why. We are being peddled the death of a teenager as entertainment. This is big bucks to the media. Whether one believes Zimmerman is guilty or not is not the real problem here.

I encourage everyone to take a step back and look at what's really going on here. Divorce yourselves from the case for a moment and think about the grotesque nature of what the media is doing here. Frankly it bothers me greatly.
03:36 AM on 04/18/2012
It's been bothering a lot of people. the Media has been prejudicing this story in favor of the Martin's since it began. Showing a picture of Trayvon when he was 12 years old to create the image of this little innocent boy, while showing a picture of George in an old mug shot to project the big bad man. Lying about the size difference by saying George was way bigger than this little kid when Trayvon is actually bigger and more athletic. editing tapes and pushing the Story in the direction it wants it to go, The media should be kicked away from the story if they can't be impartial. There is still the presumption of innocence till proven guilty, but the media bows to public sympathy. The Prosecutor bowed to public pressure and the Governor to overcharge the case siding with the Martin's before the investigation even began. We hear , well Trayvon didn't get a trial, Trayvon won't be heard, justice for Trayvon, which are all worn out. the case is in the hands of the Court system and people need to let it work to find justice. It has no longer become justice for Trayvon, It has become vengeance for Trayvon because of the media and the likes of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, the Black panthers. I'm just not buying it anymore.
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alexandra23
03:39 AM on 04/18/2012
If the media had not become involved by publicizing this case, Zimmerman would still be roaming around with a 9mm. Is that what you would prefer?
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For Realz
Silence is compliance.
04:22 AM on 04/18/2012
Yes, If his only crime was self-defense. Can you imagine the horror of shooting someone? The horror is not just for the one shot.
Zimmerman, has the knowledge of taking another man's life and he will have this knowledge until he dies. In addition he has the public persecution and murder trial by public pressure.
If he is found to have shot Mr. Martin to save his own life then he should keep his 9mm. Having a gun is not illegal as much as you might like it to be.
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White Raven
Eyeballs are tasty
04:42 AM on 04/18/2012
I don't believe that's even true. There are cases that happen like this all over the country every day which get investigated and addressed and corrected which most people do not hear about. Even if it was true, I actually would rather one nut with a gun was unfairly roaming free than for this particular societal disease to be encouraged. That is, after all, the idea behind putting the burden of proof on the prosecution at trial and beginning from a legal standpoint of innocent until proven guilty. Our very system of law is based upon the concept that it is better to allow the guilty to sometimes walk free than it is to wrongfully punish the innocent.

Note how it still doesn't always work out that way.

Anyway no disrespect to you personally but I think the argument you make rests upon the shaky assumption that the media is some sort of hero here. It is most certainly not.
12:12 AM on 04/18/2012
GZ will not get a fair trial because the jury pool has ben so poisoned by the media. It might be a moot point, since the case will probably end after the "Immunity Hearing".
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MzBergy
05:01 PM on 04/18/2012
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world; and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve people every day who don't know anything and can't read.
01:52 AM on 04/21/2012
True, but if this trial goes forward it will only be six in the box plus the alternates.
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06:53 PM on 04/17/2012
You posted the following:

“sunnydayz says: "....Look up the term 'stop and identify'."

REAL police are allowed to require a citizen to "stop and identify themselves". Private Citizens playing cop are not allowed to insist that another private citizen stop or identify themselves.
Zimmerman had NO authority to do anything after he called and reported to the REAL police. That's why he's in jail on murder charges.

You mean Zimmerman's (dropped) charges of assault on women and on REAL police are not pertinent to this case...? Well....OK. Then Martin's "charges" of truancy, tardiness and Marijuana residue are not pertinent to his murder case either.”

Please see my response below:

Consensual

At any time, police may approach a person and ASK questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the police also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts”[4] that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify himself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time.[5] Police are not usually required to tell a person that he is free to decline to answer questions and go about his business;[6] however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?”[7][8]
08:06 PM on 04/17/2012
99% true. A police officer may approach a person for any reason and upon doing so may ask For identification. You do not have to answer any questions if you do not want to whether detained or arrested. If an arrest takes place that's when miranda rights are read. If you are detained, you do not have to answer anything and the officer will release you to go.
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08:38 PM on 04/17/2012
Yes, exactly and the stop and identify rules vary by state. What I didn't share with him is that most black parents instruct their children to provide info that is requested. Just like in discrimination on the job; it's best to comply and then sue later.

Tons of lawsuits against police / law enforcement agencies. More are coming due to technology.
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White Raven
Eyeballs are tasty
01:32 AM on 04/18/2012
Mostly agreeing with you, but Miranda is only read when a suspect is questioned. Arrests can and do happen all the time where Miranda is neither required nor read. Usually this is when the probable cause for arrest is established without questioning and no questioning is deemed necessary.
09:08 PM on 04/17/2012
You seem very confused as to the law, justicex.

There are two separate issues: Zimmerman's rights vs. Trayvon's rights. Zimmerman was well within his legal right to ask Trayvon what he was doing and Trayvon was well within his legal right to ask Zimmerman why he was folloing him. If Trayvon did not feel it was any of Zimmerman's business he could have refused to answer and simply walked away...he didn't. Zimmerman would then possess no legal right to attempt to detain him.

Again, a person is required to identify themselves when asked by law enforcement. FL Statutes 856.021. As to the law being constitutional...again, see Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004).

Neither Zimmerman's or Trayvon's history is relevant to the case.
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09:38 PM on 04/17/2012
I'll be brief. Why are you assuming that he did not walk away? Why do you assume that he was even given a chance of walking away? Why do you not assume there is a very strong possibility that he was dealing with a violent unstable person?

It's typical that you would not afford the benefit of the doubt to a black person, That is the sad truth.

Review the more recent info that I sent to you on stop and identify laws. All black parents in my area have a long list of lawyers to draw upon in dealing with racist police officers and departments and they are heavily used. For good reason.
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BillForObama
Hail to the Chief! HAIL, he is the Chief!!!
09:26 PM on 04/19/2012
Looks like Trayvon was running away according to George Zimmerman's words on the 911 tape.

If you don't believe me, listen to the again.
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freedom is right
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05:13 PM on 04/17/2012
No matter how wrong GZ was in his judgments and actions.. if he didn't approach Trayvon and attack him.. then he is NOT the guilty party for Trayvon's death. And there is NO proof or even REASONABLE evidence that GZ approached and attacked Trayvon... NONE!

Whether Zimmerman had "authority" or not DOESN'T MATTER.
Whether Zimmerman had a gun.. DOESN'T MATTER.
If GZ made incorrect judgments about Trayvon.. DOESN'T MATTER.

He broke NO laws UNLESS he attacked Trayvon first.
And there is NO proof that he did ANYTHING other than observe Trayvon until
the police (who HE called) arrived.
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05:36 PM on 04/17/2012
No proof other than the two slugs in Trayvon's dead body, which was dead when the police arrived.
06:43 PM on 04/17/2012
I agree with Freedom is right. Trayvon was shot once in the chest and your making up stories convinces people more that George Zimmerman is probably innocent and being railroaded by society. If you believe Trayvon is this innocent little boy, then you don't have to lie about it. spin it a different way, the truth will come out in Court not fabricated stories.
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freedom is right
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07:45 PM on 04/17/2012
Trayvon was shot *once* and that was to stop him from attacking, which it did.
06:43 PM on 04/17/2012
Great points.
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10:25 AM on 04/17/2012
Sunnday - sigh...

“Stop and identify” statutes are laws in the United States that allow (with consent from the person) police to detain persons reasonably suspected of involvement in a crime and require (request) persons so detained to tell police their names.[1]

Zimmerman was NOT ANY FORM OF AUTHORITY. AND AS I STATED, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANSWER ANYONE WITHIN THE US. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, TRAYVON MARTIN WAS ALSO NOT ENGAGED IN ANY CRIMINAL ACTIVITY AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD LOVE THAT.
04:25 PM on 04/17/2012
You clearly have difficulty with reading comprehension, justicex.

There is no dispute that you are not required to answer to a private citizen. You went on, however, to claim you have the right to remain silent when a law enforcement officer stops you, asks for your name, etc. In regard to this point, you would be incorrect.

I would love for Trayvon to have been engaged in criminal activity? Seriously? Sheesh!
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06:57 PM on 04/17/2012
Please see my subsequent post. The next one will be a link to the ACLU site so no one on this site is confused by you.

Geez!
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Zane Neher
No, I'm not a republican.
07:49 PM on 04/17/2012
You actually are not required to give your name at any given point to law officials.
What happens afterwards depends on the cop and the situation the cop asked for it.
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David Abramo
Innocent till proven guilty
04:38 PM on 04/17/2012
He engaged in criminal activity when he attacked GZ... or maybe you thing its okay to attack an innocent well meaning police informant.
If TM did attack GZ, would you agree that he commited a crime? Thats a simple yes or no answer. But you will cloud your answer with assumptions about what happened.
catmandoozy
Fed up with gullibility...
06:54 PM on 04/17/2012
"Well meaning police informant"...? You've got to be kidding.....

A Private Citizen with NO authority other than to report his "suspicions" to the REAL police is NOT well-meaning when he chooses to ignore Police directives to NOT follow and interfere with the "suspect".

Zimmerman was not a "police informant". He was not a REAL police officer. He wasn't even a paid, uniformed, armed Security Guard. He was a volunteer with Neighborhood WATCH who overstepped his supposed authority when he willfully chose to do more than Observe and Report.
In fact....according to the national director of the Neighborhood Watch Program he wasn't even an official Neighborhood Watch Volunteer.....not that he would have any authority to do more than Observe and Report if he were an official member of Neighborhood Watch.

Zimmerman was a private citizen who shot another unarmed private citizen for no reason whatsoever. He brought his troubles onto himself.
That's why he's in jail on murder charges.....
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07:01 PM on 04/17/2012
Honestly, given GZ's past, I think it's more than plausible that GZ attacked Trayvon Martin. Period.