Proportionality in war is often judged subjectively as each side weighs the consequences of hostilities, especially when civilian casualties are involved. While it is extremely difficult to justify a military operation solely on the basis of proportionality at any stage during war, a just cause must be central to the argument. Since Hamas' political agenda and raison d'être has been Israel's destruction, Israel claims that its pursuit of Hamas becomes a just cause.
Under this type of equation, the Israeli leaders are duty bound to take whatever measures they deem necessary to bring Hamas to heel. From their perspective, this is not a fight between Israel and the Palestinian people -- although Hamas would like to portray it as such -- but a fight between Israel and a fanatic terrorist cult acting as agents for Iran, a country that threatens its very existence. Seeing the conflict with Hamas in this context raises different questions about proportionality as well as the stakes for Israel's long-term national security considerations.
Scholars in international ethics have often argued that proportionality and the use of force in war is based on moral rather than on quantitative or qualitative equivalence. In this case, as long as Hamas' objective is to destroy Israel, the moral equivalence would be the destruction of Hamas or, at a minimum, marginalizing its militant capabilities. If, by adhering to proportionality, Israel could dramatically reduce civilian casualties and still reach its objective, it would be obliged to do so. Proportionality in and of itself, however, does not necessarily provide an acceptable equation. If Israel had indiscriminately launched one rocket against Gaza for every one fired by Hamas during the past three years, Israel's response would have been by definition ''proportional'', but would have resulted in the death of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians. But Israel would have also been severely and rightfully condemned by the international community for its horrific and yet proportionate response.
It should be noted that the proportionality norms apply not to the combatant's casualties, but to the relationship between the means and goal of war. Moreover, although Israel possesses overwhelming technical and fire-power advantages, Francis Winters, a noted scholar on international ethics, has observed that 'There is nothing in the moral logic of self-defense that can support the notion that great powers may justly fight only when they reduce themselves to functional equality to small powers.'
Proportionality is also dramatically affected by the effort made to discriminate between combatants and non-combatants with the aim of minimizing civilian casualties. Israeli soldiers strictly follow military protocol to avoid civilian casualties through targeted attacks and accuse Hamas of using civilians as human shields to deliberately increase the civilian death-toll. Hamas rejects this argument on the grounds that their organization is a grass-roots movement inherently embedded in civilian communities. There is no doubt that when a fight is viewed in existential terms, be that political or physical, greater sacrifices are easier to swallow. Hamas wants to put Israel on the defensive, placing it under intense international pressure to end the hostilities before it reaches its objective. Hamas' leaders have time and again publicly asserted that they are willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians as long as they emerge victorious. They continue to fire rockets from schools and mosques, knowing full well that Israel is likely to target their launching pads.
Finally, there is the question as to whether these hostilities were avoidable, and as to whether or not Israel had exhausted all peaceful means before it decided to wage war. Israel no longer considers Gaza as occupied territory because it argues that Hamas was given every opportunity to rebuild and develop the strip since the Israelis withdrew in 2005. Hamas opted instead to use the territory as a staging ground to rain more than 10,000 rockets on Israel. Having attempted repeatedly through political and proportionate military means in the past to end Hamas' constant rocket attacks, without success, Israel was left with no choice but to use force. Though this was disproportionate, it is morally justified on the grounds that it is dealing with an enemy bent on its destruction.
Every single Israeli and Palestinian who believes in peaceful coexistence should know that if Hamas is left to its own devices it will continue to undermine any prospect of reaching a just and durable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel must leave no stone unturned in its efforts to guard against civilian casualties in order for this war to fall into the category of a just cause. Regardless of proportionality, however, the losses on both sides will be all in vain if the final outcome of the war does not substantially improve both the prospects for an eventual Israeli-Palestinian peace and for Palestinian citizens' living conditions. For this reason, any ceasefire agreed upon must provide the basis for such an outcome. Anything short of that will make this war just another sad chapter in the Israeli-Palestinian annals, and the question of proportionality just an obscure footnote.
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Israel Invades Gaza: Info, Updates, Video
SCROLL DOWN FOR VIDEO ***UPDATE*** January 4th, 9:38PM The Times of London reports that Israel's rain of fire on Gaza is thought to be caused...
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Israeli troops and tanks slice deep into Gaza
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Thousands of Israeli troops backed by tanks and helicopter gunships surrounded Gaza's largest city and fought militants at close range...
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Diplomats Converge On Israel In Push For Truce
Scroll down for video GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Israel seized control of high-rise buildings and attacked houses, mosques and smuggling tunnels as it pressed...
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Diplomatic Pressure On Israel, Hamas Intensifies
UPDATE 6 pm Heavy fighting broke out in Gaza's populated streets Monday night as Israel dismissed calls for a truce, reports the Telegraph. Explosions were...
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Gaza truce proposed after Israeli shell kills 30
GAZA CITY, Gaza — France and Egypt announced an initiative to stop the fighting in Gaza late Tuesday, hours after Israeli mortar shells exploded near...
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UN Security Council calls for immediate Gaza truce
JERUSALEM — The U.N. Security Council called for an "immediate" and "durable" cease-fire in Gaza in a resolution Thursday night even as fighting between Israel...
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UN Security Council calls for Gaza cease-fire
UNITED NATIONS — The U.N. Security Council approved a resolution Thursday night calling for an immediate and durable cease-fire between Hamas militants and Israeli forces...
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Red Cross Accuses Israel Of 'Unacceptable' Delays In Providing Access To Wounded
GENEVA — The international Red Cross accused Israel on Thursday of "unacceptable" delays in letting rescue workers reach three Gaza City homes hit by shelling...
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Israeli forces advance deep into Gaza urban areas
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli ground forces made their deepest foray yet Sunday into Gaza's most populated area, with tanks rolling into residential neighborhoods...
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Israel's Gaza Offensive: Updated Information
The IDF claims that rocket attacks have dropped 50% since their Gaza operation began over two weeks ago, reports Haaretz: Sixteen days into Operation Cast...
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Israeli Forces Enter Gaza City Neighborhood
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Terrified residents ran for cover Tuesday in a densely populated neighborhood of Gaza City as Israeli troops backed by tanks...
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Israeli Cabinet Divided Over Fresh Gaza Surge
Israeli reservists were sent into action for the first time in the current Gaza conflict as the fighting continued yesterday and Palestinian deaths reportedly rose...
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Photos From Israel That You Won't See on the News
Israel is not media savvy -- we have installed warning systems and bomb shelters. No casualties means no photos, which means that many incidents aren't even covered by the media.
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The CNN-NPR-NYT Middle East Conspiracy
When people complain about bias in the media, it's always bias against their own point of view, and never in favor of their side. Nowhere is this more true than in coverage of the Middle East.
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No Exit for Civilians in Gaza in the Midst of War
In similar situations around the world, civilians caught in the midst of conflict would have the option of seeking safety in neighboring countries as refugees. Gazans have no such option.
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Evidence Grows That Israel is Using White Phosphorus in Gaza
Today, at least two UN officials have flatly declared that three or more white phosphorous shells were part of the attack today that set a UN building and compound ablaze in Gaza City.
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Changing the Reality in Gaza
Counting on international pressure to bring a quick end to the Israeli onslaught may prove to be misplaced as Israel is now determined to never allow a return to the status quo ante.
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Hamas and the Death of a Better Future
To me, Gaza is personal. As an Israeli infantry officer, I served in Gaza before, during, and after the 2005 Disengagement.
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Al Jazeera English Beats Israel's Ban on Reporters in Gaza with Exclusive Coverage
Some may call it propaganda but I call it hardcore reporting. If you are not watching Al Jazeera English's coverage of the War on Gaza, you are missing much, if not, most of the story.
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Why Aren't More Americans Dancing To Israel's Tune?
The surprising trend in American opinion on Gaza may be because the same pundits who are cheerleading Israel's assault once sold the occupation of Iraq, and with a nearly identical set of arguments.
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Maybe Hamas is Not so Stupid
Judged as a piece of political theater, Hamas has succeeded in presenting Israel as the golem on the block.
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Israel as Mini-Me
We are both settler states -- the Puritans, who escaped oppression in the Old World only to mete out oppression in the New, unfolded their Zionist project in the 17th century with their "city built upon a hill" as the New Jerusalem.
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Gaza: The War On Children
Israel has accused Hamas of intentionally attacking from civilian-populated areas, driving up casualties among non-combatants to provoke anger against Israel. But do children have to pay the price?
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What Was Israel Supposed to Do?
Every day now, I hear someone saying, "What was Israel supposed to do? Hamas keeps firing rockets into their country." So, here is a quick list of the things they were supposed to do.
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Israel's Extensive PR Campaign
Last Friday, at the height of the attacks, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak announced without a hint of irony: "We are peace seekers."
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Accused of Funding Hamas, Controversial Charity Collects Money in Lebanon for Palestinians in Gaza (VIDEO)
On Beirut's waterfront road, young men dressed in green jackets with the Etelaf Al-Khair logo on their backs are handing out fliers with images of bloodied Palestinian children and holding donation boxes.
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Georgetown Newspaper Editor Reports on Sderot-Gaza, and Recording With Rockets
In a recording studio in Sderot, a few miles east of Israel's Gaza strip, Sergio Arditi felt the steady pulse of Rock and Roll give way to the sporadic vibration of bombs.
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Israel: There Has To Be A Better Way
The war between Israel and Hamas is not as two-dimensional as the United States Senate would like to believe. This is a complex and asymmetric war that will not end favorably for either side.
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Defending Condi: Olmert Shames Himself in Kick-in-the-Teeth Attack on Rice
Olmert's statements certainly send a signal to many in the incoming Obama administration that while there are convergent American and Israeli interests -- friendship and trust are eroding.
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The Phony War Crimes Accusation Against Israel
If Israel were ever to be charged with "war crimes," that would mark the end of international human rights law as a neutral arbitrator of conduct.
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Fanaticism and Contempt
Once the master of revolutionary war, Israel cannot seem to grasp the essential nature of asymmetrical warfare.
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Bomb A Ghetto, Raise A Cheer -- The Video
On January 11, an estimated 10,000 people rallied in front of the Israeli consulate in New York in support of Israel's attack on Gaza. The event was a festive affair that began and ended with singing and joyous dancing.
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Gaza on YouTube: Film at 11!
In lieu of actual reporting, all you have to do is log on to the Israel Defense Forces' YouTube Channel and you can see images of Israel pummeling Gaza, and sit in on "the first ever" Twitter press conference.
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NY Times Responds Weakly Today to Israel's 'Incursion' -- As Shells Kill Dozens at U.N. School
It takes until paragraph #8 for the Times, to mention that, by the way, Israel "must" allow foreign journalists access to Gaza, especially since its highest court so ordered.
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Gazans in Peril
The human tragedy that has befallen Gaza's Palestinians -- Hamas supporters or not -- warrants every American to take cognizance because of its consequences for a durable Middle East peace.
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Hold Your Fire: Children and Civilians In Gaza
If the killing of unarmed civilians by terrorist groups is wrong, Israel's killing of unarmed Palestinian civilians and our defense of Israel's conduct cannot be right.
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War Diary from Sderot
Not in my name and not for me did you go into this war. The bloodbath in Gaza is not in my name nor for my security. Behind this accursed leadership of Hamas live human beings.
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Overwhelming Force Is the Only Way to Fight Terrorists
The destruction of Hamas benefits the Palestinians far more than the Israelis. It is they that must live under the cruelty of an organization that terrorizes its citizens even more than its enemies.
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Gaza and the Obama Effect -- Ending the War
It might be pushing the envelope to call Obama the peacemaker here, but it's hard to deny that his impending entrance to the world stage has an effect.
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How Propaganda Hijacked Israeli Strategy in Gaza
While Israel's explicit goal is to cease all attacks on southern Israel, senior IDF and intelligence officials have privately signaled that this is unrealistic, even with a ground invasion.
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Obama's Silence
As January 20 approaches, Obama will have to make a lonely decision - to remember his 2007 words about Palestinian suffering and his campaign pledge to talk unconditionally with adversaries.
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Video Reveals that a Lack of Moral Center Is Central to Hamas's War Strategy
The whole world is quick to condemn Israel for civilian deaths in Gaza, but there is utter silence over Hamas's blatant disregard for the lives of its own citizens.
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Goodnight My Love, See You in Heaven -- Diary From an Aid Worker in Gaza
The situation has now reached such a critical point that doctors frequently confront dilemmas such as these -- to treat the child who is bleeding to death or the baby who has severe head injuries?
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Israel in Gaza: Three Wrong Arguments
The Reid/McConnell resolution is a perfect articulation of one voice in the American debate over Israel's actions in Gaza. Here are a few objections that should be raised.
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Israel, Gaza and Iran: Trapping Obama in Imagined Fault Lines
While there certainly is an underlying rivalry between Israel and Iran that has come to fuel many other otherwise unrelated conflicts in the region, not every war Israel fights is related to Iran.
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Reportage from Israel/Gaza
We can't ignore this fact: Gaza is becoming not the embryo of the so-desired Palestinian State, but the advance base of a total war against the Jewish State.
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Proportionality and Disproportionality: A Guide to Arguments about Gaza
Even if the guns fall silent the charges and counter-charges of violations of international law will continue. Already the airwaves are full of talk that Israel's "disproportionate" response is a violation of international law.
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Obama -- Please Say Something!
In just over two weeks Obama will be unable to avoid saying something and the world will be looking to him and demanding to hear his opinion on the crisis in Gaza.
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Israel's Risk
What we're watching in Gaza is not so much low-intensity warfare as the continued fracture of the post-Soviet international order.
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Why Do So Few Speak Up for Gaza?
Why is it that there is such widespread acceptance, beginning with the apologetic arguments of George Bush, that whatever Israel does is always justified as necessary to the survival of the Jewish state?
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Why Israel Was Right to Invade Gaza
How should Israel attempt to protect its people, long-term, if it merely acts defensively in a tit-for-tat manner? That would be a horribly naïve response given its history.
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Gaza, Qaddafi, And Starbucks
Along with the images of bloodied children, scenes of destruction and carnage in Gaza, debates on Arab disunity have increased in the Arab media.
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Israel, Hamas, Gaza: Plenty of Us in America Just Need to Shut Up
Something labeled "Subject: Fwd: Some Differences Between Hamas and the Nazi Party" showed up in my inbox Monday night.
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Obama Camp "Prepared To Talk To Hamas," Says the Guardian
The Obama administration's emphasis on "talk" with Hamas will bring a significant moral shift in U.S. policy -- but it will not do away with some of the core grievances vis-a-vis U.S.-Israel relations.
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Protesters in Beirut Demand Action from Arab Leaders on Gaza, Focusing on Egypt as Demonstrations Rise (VIDEO)
Millions across the Arab world are demonstrating, demanding that Arab governments do more to support Palestinians trapped in Gaza.
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Eyeless in Gaza
I wish I didn't believe that the events now unfolding in the Middle East are too complicated for unalloyed outrage. I wish the arguments of only one side rang wholly true to me.
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AP Reporter Watches Own Home Destroyed, via YouTube, in Gaza
In one of the most moving accounts of the war in Gaza, Ibrahim Barzak, the AP's chief correspondent there for 17 years, today wrote of watching his own home destroyed on YouTube.
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Mitchell Bard is Wrong On Israel
Hamas did not start this conflict. Here's an extensive time line of events, making clear that Israel broke the ceasefire, not Hamas.
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Ceasefire
The first reason for a ceasefire now is to stop the killing. The second is to ensure that a year or two from now we are not all wishing that Hamas was still in charge.
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Livni and Barak's Gaza Calculus
If hundreds of innocent deaths helps secure a real security mandate for the moderate-to-dovish Kadima/Labor and Israeli-Palestinian peace, that's political calculus Livni and Barak were willing to take.
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Was Israel Punked by Hamas? Are Progressives Attacking Israel Being Punked too?
The only way the Israeli and Palestinian people have a shot at peace is for outsiders to put pressure on both sides to make it happen and to stop the violence. It can be done.
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Israel and Hamas: Two to Tango
What is going on in Gaza is that it is not the result of a sudden decision or an immediate and intolerable provocation by one side or the other -- this thing has been in the planning by both sides for months.
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Hamas Is Responsible for the Civilian Casualties in Gaza
By choosing tactical advantages over the safety of its citizens, the terrorist organization chose its military goals over the safety of its fellow Palestinians in Gaza.
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Self-Deception and the Assault on Gaza
From the civilian deaths in Gaza will spring more hatred and terrorism. Yet no people are so prone as Americans and Israelis to think admiringly of our own good intentions.
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How to Defeat Hamas -- Face Up to the Truth
Making Hamas into a unique demon is pure propaganda. But no form of Islamic extremism will end until moderate Muslims stand up for their religion.
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Letter From Beersheva
I am here in Beersheva -- on the "almost" frontlines of the conflict with Hamas -- to tell you the first thing to go when missiles start to fall nearby, is your diet.
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It's Time for a Sustained Focus on a Lasting Middle East Peace
What we continue to lack is the kind of real political solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that could finally make a "ceasefire" endure.
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Gaza: Fight at the End of the Tunnel?
Any ceasefire must include an ironclad commitment by Egypt to cooperate fully with Israel to shut Hamas' tunnel network once and for all whatever Hamas' political or military wings decide tomorrow in Cairo.
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not a mistake...........................
Thanks so much for sharing your cogent and timely thoughts on proportionality in war.
There have been many who have sought to re-write the current provisions of international law so as to exonerate one side but castigate the other. This has led to wild accusations of war crime, dis-proportionality, ethnic cleansing, genocide, inverse-warsaw-ghetto, and so on.
Often these histrionic claims do not bear scrutiny in the light of the actual text of the laws they cite.
This is why your article is so helpful. I admit that your perspective is not wholly objective, but you nevertheless present a side to this discussion that is sometimes not clearly heard or understood.
Exonerating Hamas of its war crime of civilian targeting does no good to efforts to achieve a resolution; also, the IDF's campaign is now demonstrably killing victims & hitting targets it did not intend (according to its announced war goals) in such large numbers that a fundamental rethink is surely required very hastily indeed.
I do not think that there are 5 people on this forum who actively desire all this killing to continue. Every call for peace & harmony over bloodshed is a good one.
But spurious name-calling in order to try & leverage public opinion is shameful and illiberal.
Do continue to contribute to this poignant debate (a person died for every word I have just written in the past 7 days).
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Basically, you just admitted that there is no exact analogous example.
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Uh... yea... That's what I said... :^/
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How about an example involving the UN and a non-middle east conflict in the past twenty years (of any kind)?
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The UN is a joke. It is THE most corrupted entity on the planet.. If you want to tout the UN, then you are already lost...
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My point; not everything is apples to apples.
I'll wait for a different example than that of WWII...
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Like I said, it's close enough to point out the fallacy of your argument. Using casualty numbers as an indication of proportionality is not a valid argument.
Michale.....
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Specifically, today, where is the documented evidence that Hamas had taken over the UN compound that Israel bombed?
Israel will say that they were shelling combatants. The UN will say that no combatants were there.
Should we always believe Israel's account of events? Where are the independent journalists who can verify this?
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950855726&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
I employ Occam's Razor...
An Israeli commander woke up this morning and said, "Ya know... I feel like shelling a UN building full of innocent civilians..
A HAMAS commander woke up this morning and decided to attack Israel forces from the sanctity of a UN Building..
Of those those, which is more likely??? Especially when one takes into account that HAMAS has a history of firing from, attacking from and using as weapons storage, UN buildings..
Michale.....
Can't you just once admit that quite possibly, an IDF soldier made a mistake?
100% absolutely I concede that the IDF might have made a mistake in hitting the UN buildings..
But until there is some incontrovertible evidence that this is the case, the official version has to stand...
As for trusting the UN?? Shirley you jest...
This is the agency that stalled the Iraq situation so that they could clear, CLEAR, 9 billion dollars a year..
This is the agency that sent peacekeepers down to an African nation to disarm the rebels and ended up supplying them with weapons. At a nice profit..
The UN is, bar none, ***THE*** most corrupt entity on the face of the planet...
"The best thing for the UN to do is go condo."
-Robin Williams.
Michale.....
There's one part missing from this analysis. Israel's attack on Gaza cannot possibly lead to its strategic goal (peaceful coexistence)
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Your evidence to support this conclusion??
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I'm not arguing that Hamas is in any way a reasonable neighbor, only that Israel's tactics have to be based on a reasonable chance of success to be considered in an ethical sense.
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It's recent hiccups notwithstanding, Hezbollah has been awful quiet of late. If Israel had the success back then she appears to be having now, who knows...
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while failing to make a dent in Hamas's ability to be an aggressor
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Once again, what evidence do you have that supports this??
Michale......
2) One can argue in favor of obliterating Hamas with reasonable arguments. But, in the real world, one must separate between the purported aims of military action, and the actual results. The hundreds of civilian deaths are simply unacceptable. I will salute the Israeli soldiers who track down and eliminate the enemy at the cost of their own lives, not those of children and innocent men and women.
3) The authors states "losses on both sides will be all in vain if the final outcome of the war does not substantially improve both the prospects for an eventual Israeli-Palestinian peace and for Palestinian citizens' living conditions." The losses on the Palestinian side actually make these outcomes even less likely.
4) The US media may be favorable to Israel; but the rest of the world is angry.
Of course, this ignores the fact that, by placing it's military hardware in crowded urban areas and using human shields, it is HAMAS who is primarily responsible for the innocent civilian casualties. Not the IDF.
2) If HAMAS places their military weaponry in crowded civilian areas, they are primarily responible for the civilian casualties.
4) I see no evidence of this, beyond the normal ISRAEL IS EVIL crowd.. Israel seems to be winning the PR war a LOT better than they did in '06.
Michale.....
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As an aside, it should be noted that the claim that "Nothing justifies terrorism" is a moral principle, not a fact. It is not clear why you think you strengthen your position by misuse the word fact.
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I was wondering how long it would take for someone to dispute the fact that nothing justifies terrorism.
You think this is a moral assertion, not a statement of fact?
Nothing justifies racism.... Moral assertion or statement of fact??
Nothing justifies genocide... Moral assertion or statement fact??
Nothing justifies child molestation... Moral assertion or statement of fact??
Are you sure you want to go on record as defending racism, genocide, child molestation and terrorism??
Somethings are simply bad and unjustifiable.. FACT No moral equivocating is necessary...
If you want to argue these facts, be my guest...
Michale.....
But debates about justification are moral debates not factual ones.
Does it bother you that your list of "facts" are not even consistent with each other? Most people think that consistency is a requirement of a set of things all being true. But maybe terrorism justifies inconsistent things being true as well. As suppose if terrorism justifies anything it justifies impossible things.
After all you just said that terrorism justifies all of those things.
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How did you get there from here?
I am on record as saying that NOTHING justifies terrorism...
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Does it bother you that your list of "facts" are not even consistent with each other?
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For example.......???????
Michale......
I know it isn't entirely consoling, but the truth is finally made painfully obvious by Israel's blatant militarism and sabotage of Palestinian statehood by manipulation of international politics and now, open and systematic ethnic cleansing. Here are a few examples of credible, respected people who are speaking out about what's going on.
Avi Shlaim, foremost academic on Israeli history, Oxford professor and formerly of Israel himself:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/14/leading_israeli_scholar_avi_shlaim_israel
Bob Simon, renowned international journalist for CBS:
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9900
The arguments and positions presented in this op ed piece, have failed to impress, because the "Israel has gon ewild" statement by Livni is all too vivid.
Time will tell who the winners and losers are, but one loser will be "The War on Terror." I am sure that, and referring to all combatents as terrorists will not survive.
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When using phrases such as "...simple fact is..." please define by what criteria. Not everyone considers it a "fact". It isn't fact just because YOU say so.
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No, it's a fact because it's a fact..
Now, you can go one of two ways here..
You can come up with evidence that refutes my facts...
Or you can choose the route that people like Chaos and Siberian choose and simply make childish and immature personal attacks, thereby conceding the argument to yours truly..
The choice is yours. But, as the British knight cautioned in INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE....
"Choose wisely"...
Michale.....
Does this make thinks clear to you...it seems like your brain is washed with constant dosage from MegaPhone....try to get some fresh air and listen to real news not from USA sources which are extensions to IDF propaganda....
This is documented...
Michale.....
X has more casualties than Y so X must be morally correct...
German deaths in WWII outpaced American deaths 11-1.... Japanese deaths, 8-1...
Using that method of reasoning, Japan and Germany were morally, legally and ethically in the right because they suffered MILLIONS of more casualties than the US did...
I keep saying it over and over in (apparently futile) hope that it sinks in.
Proportionality is NOT defined by mere numbers of casualties.. Jackson said it best, "The rule of proportionality is that the amount of civilian death and injury that is anticipated from a military action cannot be out of proportion to the military objective sought."
In Article 32(c)(1) from the International Criminal Courts, it is stated thusly:
"Our thumb is on the scale in favour of the defender", such that the magnitude of the response may exceed the degree of danger created by the initial attack"
Michale.....
Please provide a recent example of proportionality that is not between two armed, sovereign nations. Let's see an example of an unarmed, occupied territory versus a heavily armed democratic nation. Do you have one?
Provide evidence that invalidates the examples..
Since it would be nearly impossible to find an EXACT analogous example, these one's suffice..
The only reason YOU view them as invalid is because it totally devastates your argument..
That fact doesn't invalidate the example, but rather simply invalidates your argument. Which is as it was intended..
Michale.....
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Actually Hamas has participated in third party cease fire talks (as it is doing now). It has also at various times encouraged negotiation with the Palestinian Authority to be put to a referendum of the Palestinian people. So their are options there is one cares about reality.
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And the REALITY is that
A> HAMAS still fires rockets into Israel
B> HAMAS still attempts to kidnap Israeli soldiers
C> HAMAS still refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist
Until HAMAS addresses these, Israel has the moral, ethical and legal high ground.
This is the reality...
Michale....
But it is interesting that you think defending Israel requires adopting such a stupid view. I think that means my more limited defenses of Israel show more respect to Israel than your ludicrous blind defenses.
So does the fact that your comments don't actually respond to my point above mean that you are acknowledging that the "fact" that I was countering was in fact a false one? Have you acknowledged yet that the idea that Israel controlling all flow of goods into Gaza by any means is not akin to our closing out border with Mexico yet?
For someone who talks about facts a lot you seem to be uninterested in whether the things you give as facts are actually true.
So your view is that until Hamas addresses your points A B and C it doesn't matter what Israel does it has the moral high ground.
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Yep, that pretty much sums it up..
It's consistent with the overriding FACTUAL theme that NOTHING justifies terrorism.
An idea that has yet to be refuted...
My comments address your points completely... You claim that there are other options and as I have proven, there aren't any other options until such time as HAMAS is either eliminated or radically alters it's stance..
My personal opinion is that the former is preferred, but I can probably live with the latter.
Michale.....
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I believe that the point is twofold; Gaza is far more densely populated that the areas the Hamas rockets were capable of reaching and Israel's rockets would have been much more lethal than Hamas' bottle rockets.
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You seem to believe that GAZA is nothing but urban sprawl..
Have you ever been to Gaza?? Have you ever even SEEN Gaza??
Michale.....
No, I've never been to Gaza. I haven't seen it because Israel hasn't allowed any US media outlets to cover the invasion!
From what I've read, Gaza is 26 miles long by 7 miles wide, so roughly 182 square miles. 1.5 million people live there, so that's over 8,000 people per square mile on average, although Gaza City is far more dense. Any rocket launched into an area of this population density would logically generate more casualties.
Clarification two was that an Israeli rocket would have more than a 12-mile range.
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Americans generally would not care about deaths .......they happen all the time.
Except that ,1000 people have died in an exercise of COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT in Gaza with the use of US planes, bombs, using our tax money by a beloved country that we cannot even ask to stop....
Why have we become so heartless; a nation without honor and without courage to act for what is right?
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It has been proven that there is no "collective punishment"..
But, it's interesting.
Did you know that, when HAMAS illegally took control of GAZA, over 1500 Palestinians were brutally killed..
Why is it that people only care about dead Palestinians when Israel is involved??
I have asked this question a dozen times or more. No one has been able to answer..
I guess that is an answer in itself.
Michale......
You can try to spin it however you want..
But the FACTS are clear..
Israel is within compliance of the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal Courts...
Michale....