Amb. Marc Ginsberg

Amb. Marc Ginsberg

Posted January 8, 2009 | 12:36 AM (EST)

Gaza: Fight at the End of the Tunnel?

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As Hamas missiles continue to be fired from the Gaza Strip into Israeli cities during Day 5 of Israel's ground assault into the Gaza Strip, Israel's leaders confront a difficult decision: whether agree to a cease fire before achieving Israel's military or political goals, or broaden the offensive against Hamas.

Paradoxically, Hamas may make that decision easier for Israel's leaders.

Today in Cairo, representatives of Israel, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are meeting to consider a Franco-Egyptian cease fire proposal, which has 3 principal elements: an end to Hamas' indiscriminate missile attacks on Israel; an end to the Israeli blockade of Gaza; and an end to Hamas' weapons smuggling from Egyptian controlled Sinai into Gaza.

Whether the Cairo talks will produce a quick end to the fighting depends on several factors: 1) can Israel's military commanders convince Israeli political leaders that more time is needed to substantially decay Hamas' will to fight and establish a more credible deterrence against Hamas' terrorist attacks; 2) whether diplomatic calculations compel Israel to suspend Operation "Cast Lead"; and 3) whether Hamas' political leaders in Gaza can overrule its military wing based in Damascus led by exiled Hamas leader Moussa Abou Marzouk, and agree to a "Hudna" or durable truce. Hamas' local Gaza leaders may embrace a truce to avoid further destruction of Hamas strongholds inside central Gaza City and other towns where Hamas forces are based so that the bulk of its terror militias can survive to fight another day .

Fighting is at a critical stage...Hamas' senior military leaders are lying in wait in the narrow alleyways of Gaza hoping to lure Israeli forces into house to booby-trapped house fighting, where Hamas still maintains substantial stores of missiles, rockets and other stockpiles of ammunition.

Given the difficult choices facing it, it is unlikely Israel will succeed in its goal of completely destroying Hamas' infrastructure and regime without deploying more troops into Gaza City itself and without reoccupying large swaths of the Gaza Strip A lengthy presence in Gaza will surely result in Israel incurring more casualties; and incurring more international wrath as the civilian toll throughout the Gaza Strip mounts. This may be Hamas' hope, but Israel will not take its bait. Israelis know all too well what a substantial reoccupation of Gaza means, and despite the desire to rid itself of Hamas once and for all, I do not envision Israeli flags flying anytime soon over Gaza City.

With so much riding on the success of diplomatic efforts to find a way out the mess, much will depend on finally choking off Hamas' oxygen supply of smuggled weapons and missiles from Iran which it transports into Gaza through the so-called "Philadelphi Corridor" -- an oxymoron if there ever was one--named for the network of hundreds of smuggling tunnels dug under the Egyptian-Gaza border. Without the tunnels by which Hamas smuggles in arms and terrorists, it would eventually become defanged and unable to inflict further significant damage on Israel's southern towns.

The question I have is why hadn't Egyptian authorities -- which control the Sinai-Gaza border area where the tunnels exist and knowing Hamas' sinister plans with the Iranian weaponry it smuggled through the tunnels -- done much more to police the border area and prevent the weapons smuggling in the first place?

Surely, a more muscular Egyptian police and military presence, backed up with Israeli intelligence cooperation and international support perhaps could have prevented Hamas from having the means to resume its missile strikes into Israel on December 19. What was being run through the tunnels during the latest Hamas-Israeli truce was no secret to either the Egyptians or the Israelis. In addition to needed consumer goods, medical supplies, food and other necessities due to Israel's sanctions against Hamas following its military takeover of Gaza last year, Hamas used the 6 month old truce to rearm and enhance its rocket and missile arsenal -- importing more sophisticated Grad Iranian-built missiles -- and send its terrorists to Iran and to Hezbollah in Lebanon for "missile management."

The Egyptians seem paralyzed in the face of what has been going on underneath their noses. Maybe President Mubarak is afraid to confront Hamas for fear of risking the wrath of its paternal domestic supporter -- the Muslim Brotherhood. Perhaps Mubarak is afraid that if Egypt interfered with Hamas' smuggling, Hamas supporters would launch terror attacks against Egypt -- rather than just on Israel. Or Egypt finds the tunnels a convenient steam valve enabling Palestinians to remain in Gaza rather than busting down the Gazan border into Egypt seeking refuge and relief. Given the complexity of situation it likely constitutes a combination of all these factors.

During its offensive, Israel is using its air force to pulverize the tunnel network, but there are so many of them that it would take a much lengthier Israeli military campaign to cave enough of the underground network and render the terrain sufficiently inhospitable to renewed tunneling.

That is why any ceasefire worth the paper its written on must include an ironclad commitment by Egypt to step up the plate and cooperate fully with Israel to shut Hamas' tunnel network once and for all whatever Hamas' political or military wings decide tomorrow in Cairo. If Cairo needs international help to accomplish this goal -- well, then Mubarak should make that request.

How, then, you ask, will Gazans subsist without the lifeline the tunnel network provides for less sinister purposes? As before, that will largely depend on whether Israel achieves the necessary and entitled quiet on its southern border under an internationally policed and durable cease fire.

If during the Cairo talks Hamas rejects a durable, long-term cease fire that compels it to irrevocably end its missile terror against Israel, well, then the international community will bear witness once again to what Hamas truly represents -- a so-called "democratically elected terror organization" willing to sacrifice the long-term interest of the Palestinian people who deserve something far better than what they endure inside Gaza.

As for Israel, if it decides to embrace the Franco-Egyptian terms despite Hamas' refusal to meet it even halfway, Israel will have further approbation to press on with its offensive until it destroys Hamas' military infrastructure, which unfortunately places defenseless Palestinians further at risk. Whether there is "fight" or "light" at the end of the tunnels will principally depend on who really rules Hamas -- its terrorist military wing or its political wing. Given Hamas' virulent preference for obstinate terrorism no matter the cost to its own citizens, I am afraid Hamas would rather maintain its tunnel vision.

As Hamas missiles continue to be fired from the Gaza Strip into Israeli cities during Day 5 of Israel's ground assault into the Gaza Strip, Israel's leaders confront a difficult decision: whether agre...
As Hamas missiles continue to be fired from the Gaza Strip into Israeli cities during Day 5 of Israel's ground assault into the Gaza Strip, Israel's leaders confront a difficult decision: whether agre...
 
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- bbrecht I'm a Fan of bbrecht 17 fans permalink
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open the border if you want to shut down the tunnels you cannot simply starve these people to death

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:53 PM on 01/11/2009
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The border will be open once the tunnels are shut down and once HAMAS quits firing missiles at innocent Israeli civilians...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:03 AM on 01/12/2009
- Elderlady I'm a Fan of Elderlady 15 fans permalink

What I find interesting is that we are just finding out about all those natural gas reserves off the coast of Gaza, that belong to the Palestinian people.

Israel is determined they should belong to the Israelis.

This war has nothing to do with rockets. It has everything to do with billions of dollars in natural resources. And determining who gets the spoils.

http://www.prorev.com

Mr. Ambassador, the Palestinaian people could be self sufficient with the money they would be paid by the companies developing these reserves --- and with the money from the two producing wells.

They wouldn't have to eat grass. And, they wouldn't have to depend on Israel for food, electricity, water, etc.

Now would they?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 AM on 01/11/2009
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You do not even once mention the indiscriminate Israeli blockade of Gaza
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Egypt has the same blockade.. Why do you think that is?? Regardless of that, HAMAS doesn't seem to have ANY problem smuggling in weapons..

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or the fact that Hamas held to the 6 mos cease-fire until the IDF attacked and killed Palestinians.
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HAMAS didn't hold a CEASE FIRE... HAMAS merely held a FIRE LESS FIRE....

Further, the HAMAS militants that were killed were in tunnels in northern GAZA, tunneling their way into Israel to kidnap more Israeli soldiers, a'la Cpl Shalit...

You remember Cpl Shalit, don't you?? HAMAS still hasn't released him and are in COMPLETE violation of the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal Courts... Agencies YOU claim are relevant to this...

In any jurisdiction in the world, such a strike is righteous...

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Fully one third of the killed by Israeli attacks are children. You do not mention the dead mothers, fathers or children even once.
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And the responsibility for those deaths lie solely and completely with HAMAS.... They are the ones who use Human Shields.. They are the ones who place their military hardware and their weapons depots in crowded civilian areas..

And YOU don't mention that once either..

Why is that???

HAMAS is committing terrorism against Israel.. That renders ANY legitimacy of their actions moot because NOTHING justifies terrorism...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:34 AM on 01/11/2009
- batguano I'm a Fan of batguano 47 fans permalink

Your entire premise, Ambassador, is about war being the answer and "Hamas" being the reason. You do not even once mention the indiscriminate Israeli blockade of Gaza or the fact that Hamas held to the 6 mos cease-fire until the IDF attacked and killed Palestinians. ALWAYS there are deliberate provocations designed to create conflict and death. You do not even oncemention the brutal occupation of the West Bank, as if that is of no consequence. There is more going on here than just bombing and killing Hamas "terrorists". Fully one third of the killed by Israeli attacks are children. You do not mention the dead mothers, fathers or children even once. This post is just so much parotting the Israeli line and is so much propaganda and distortion.

Here are some Israeli/Jewish voices with another take on this atrocity and pre-meditated destruction of Gaza, the mass killing of civilians and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. I suggest you read them, they give a different view of the killing and reasons for the cowardly Israeli attacks.

http://www.progressive.org/mag/avnery010209.html
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/31-8
http://www.icahd.org/eng/news.asp?menu=5&submenu=1&item=646

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:13 AM on 01/10/2009

You can only believe Israel broke the cease-fire if you ignore the fact that Hamas has continued to fire dozens of missiles into Israel daily, for years.

You might also do some reading on the 'Indiscriminate blockade', set up when Israel learned Hamas was sending terrorists into Israel via their tunnels. tunnels that were supoposed to be shut down according to the cease-fire. Indiscriminate???

You might also read up on the 'concern' you attribute to Hamas for the lives of their citizens. Would those be the same citizens that Hamas has been ordering that they make human shields of themselves? Including children? There is plenty of proof of this in videos but of course you would rather ignore the facts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:51 PM on 01/13/2009
- robeson I'm a Fan of robeson 21 fans permalink
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Military commanders throughout history have often recommended and used attacks on civilians to help win wars. Sieges, executions, rockets, carpet bombings, fire bombings, and even nuclear bombs have been used against civilian populations. Yet an outcry goes up at every new engagement about obeying the laws and acting civil. Why should anyone believe this protest?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:48 PM on 01/09/2009

THE TRUTH ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, The funny and the sad
Start with the funny,
Here is Jon Stewart making fun of the media coverage. It is actually funny

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=213380&title=Strip-Maul

Finally somebody is telling the truth. Here is Bob Simon 0f 60 minutes on Charlie rose. The good stuff starts after about 6 minutes. Bob gives the real reason there is no peace in the Middle East.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9900
I agree with Bob Simon's analysis. I hope his dire predictions are wrong.

Here is a Good article from Newsweek

http://www.newsweek.com/id/177716

Here is why every American Government has given blind support to Israel

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Here is the book by the professors from Harvard and Chicago

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724

And here is a reminder of how Israel pushed the Us into the war in Iraq, This is an article from 2002 (before the war)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/world/main519037.shtml


There is probably too much information in this e mail. You may want to save it for the weekend.

WK

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:05 PM on 01/09/2009

This is what ceasefire means to Hamas . Gotta read it to beleive it"
" Abu Marzouq: We are not saying we will stop firing rockets from the Gaza Strip to Israel - we are only talking about stopping the aggression from the Israelis against the civilian population in the Gaza Strip. "

This is the Hamas version of the ceasefire???
"israel will stop attacking us, and we will continue attacking Israel?" This guy has lost his marbles.

I noticed he issued this statement from the ( relative) safety of his Syrian controlled office.
I wonder if Hamas leaders hiding in Gaza hospitals and tunnels share this sentiment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:40 AM on 01/09/2009
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I stole your quote for a post over at Ben Cohen's commentary.. Hope ya don't mind. :D

I agree... It's mind-boggling that people actually SUPPORT these people...

Michale....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 AM on 01/09/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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Only if you fail to learn the history, just like 911 was "mind-boggling" to many americans because they knew nothing of their own covert history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 01/09/2009
- iblisexpat I'm a Fan of iblisexpat 3 fans permalink

Israeli "ambassador of distortion". One should add his name to the list of other "former" ambassadors who are preaching by falsehood and lies.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:11 PM on 01/09/2009
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What does that have to do with the HAMAS leader's quote???

Michale........

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:42 PM on 01/09/2009

Shouldn't we be doing the same thing to make sure weapons don't so easily get into Israel? Maybe if they had to drag in their killing implements through tunnels, there'd be less blood.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:03 AM on 01/09/2009
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No, there would be more blood as Israel has suffered unprovoked attacks from a coalition of mulsim dominated countries 3 times. If Israel was disarmed the muslims jackals would move in and kill each and every Iraeli citizen. Would this bother you at all William?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:10 PM on 01/09/2009
- 11907281 I'm a Fan of 11907281 14 fans permalink
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Are you serious? Do you think the entire world would do nothing? Which countries are you talking about, or are all Muslims "jackals" to you? Just ... breath taking, the lack of reality in your post and the r@cist under tones. Since most of these "jackals" are of Semitic heritage, your comments are anti-Semitic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:56 PM on 01/09/2009

Sure, less Palestinian blood, but much more Israeli blood.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 01/09/2009

Hamas said today they are not interested in a cease-fire. Israel needs to finish the job.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:49 AM on 01/09/2009
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To be fair, Israel also said that they reject the cease-fire..

But Israel has better reasons for rejecting it than HAMAS...

The SMART thing for HAMAS to do would have been to accept it...

Michale....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:56 AM on 01/09/2009
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What is the job, ... to anihilate Hamas, or to anihilate the Palestinians in Gaza. I could see the former as a legitimate pursuit from the Israeli perspective, but the latter is not.

How are they to distinguish?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 AM on 01/09/2009
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I agree completely... The former is a legitimate goal and the latter is not..

Where we (probably) disagree is that there is NO indication that Israel is pursuing the latter and there is EVERY indication that Israel is pursuing the former.

It sure would be nice if HAMAS had even a TENTH of the concern for Palestinians that Israel apparently has..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 AM on 01/09/2009

Look... If Hamas is firing rockets from schools and mosques and markets, then who is responsible for the deaths of the non-combatants that are there as well? I say first its the non-combatants for allowing it or refusing to flee. If Hamas is forcing them to remain as human shields then it is Hamas that is responsible. I do not believe Israel is responsible. The war game has changed and there needs to be a pardigm shift.

Islamic Terrorisism will never be defeated if they can attack from civilian cover and not fear retaliation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 AM on 01/09/2009
- iblisexpat I'm a Fan of iblisexpat 3 fans permalink

I have said all along just wait and watch Israeli troops go inside the cities and towns then we will see "war" where these cowards won't dare get out of their armored tanks. Afte than, we will see the Isrelis pushing for ceasefire.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:14 PM on 01/09/2009

Ah yes, the "noble terrorists" who blow up civilians on busses and in markets with bombs and rockets. Those guys are hella brave....huh? Check out my cool tie-dye che shirt!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 PM on 01/09/2009
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What you are saying, Mr. Ambassador, is that we need Eqypt's commitment to become the jail keeper to the South for Israel's Prison Camp, which it calls Gaza. Though duly elected, Hamas was immediately discounted by the US and Israel, and most in the West. What we wanted, of course was that the Palestinians would elect docile and servile leaders, who would pledge to support not just the right of Israel to exist, but support of the Israeli economy as a workforce for its use.

Gaza must be given open ports and free access beyond its borders to develop an economy and to allow its people the same quality of life that Israel enjoys.

Israel's assault is simply a reaction to years of de facto imprisonment and physical and economic isolation, and even starvation of Gaza by Israel.

Without addressing those circumstances Gazans will struggle to do what we would all do, ... to fight their oppressors.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 01/09/2009
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Though duly elected, Hamas was immediately discounted by the US and Israel, and most in the West.
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Hitler was also "duly elected".. Does that mean he should have been allowed to have free reign??

Yea, call it a Godwin if you must.. But it still holds as factual..

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Gaza must be given open ports and free access beyond its borders to develop an economy and to allow its people the same quality of life that Israel enjoys.
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After the THOUSANDS of innocent men women and children butchered by HAMAS, Gaza must EARN open ports and free access beyond it's borders...

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Without addressing those circumstances Gazans will struggle to do what we would all do, ... to fight their oppressors.
{{{{{

As Dr Phil would say, "How's that working out for you?"

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:27 AM on 01/09/2009
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{{ Hitler was also "duly elected".. Does that mean he should have been allowed to have free reign??}}

That old canard ("duck" in French, perhaps) has been dead for a while, thanks for noting so. In point of fact the elections were sanctioned by the US and Israel, and we did not like the outcome. As for "free reign", the Gazans and their leaders are no more free to reign than inmates in a gulag. Israel turns of the lights, turns off the fuel, cuts off food, at will.

{{As Dr Phil would say, "How's that working out for you?"}}

Would you have offered that smug aphorism to the captives in the Warsaw Ghetto? Perhaps in that day and time you would, if you were a German citizen.

What you are suggesting in your sarcasm, Mic, is that Humans confronted with unreasonable restraint of movement, commerce, communication and basic services like health care for their children, should cower and submit to their oppressors.

Not only is such a suggestion naive of Human Nature, but anathema to the US and Israeli Histories.

Is it that you believe the Gazans to be less than us? If so, say so plainly so that we all will know your motives.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 AM on 01/09/2009
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Incidentally, ... Israel's on and off blockade of food and essentials coincided with the ceasefire period, during which Hamas and others were much less active despite Israel's harassment. Yet Israel persisted in the blockade as a means of provocation, IMHO. The end of the ceasefire simply released frustration and gave Israel an excuse to move on Gaza before our regime change here in the US.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 AM on 01/09/2009
- Paulo1 I'm a Fan of Paulo1 40 fans permalink

Well Mr. Ambassador IF we wish to play the "why?" game how about asking why Israel let the tunnels go for so long? They have a very effective agency called Mossad that certainly knew they were there and as proven by the bombing campaign a very effective way of closing them down. In fact why didn't they call Hamas on them when they were being built? It isn't like the dirt from a couple of hundred tunnels can be hid under the mattress.

Could it be that this is more about the coming Israeli elections? How about asking what possible miraculous authority Hamas has in Gaza to end every fanatics plot to launch a homemade missile attack? Gaza teams with people who have a personal vendetta with Israel for dead family members, does anyone really think that even a police state can stop the occasional cross border attack?

Nope, your argument is just setting an unreachable bar for Hamas and does nothing to address a solution. Declare a Palestinian State and send in peace keepers for BOTH sides.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:01 AM on 01/09/2009
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Well Mr. Ambassador IF we wish to play the "why?" game how about asking why Israel let the tunnels go for so long?
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Maybe because Israel respected the territorial integrity of Egypt, an ally..

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Nope, your argument is just setting an unreachable bar for Hamas and does nothing to address a solution.
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Saying that HAMAS must quit firing missiles at Israel and acknowledge Israel's right to exist is an "unreachable bar"???

Seriously??

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Declare a Palestinian State and send in peace keepers for BOTH sides.
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A Palestinian State is not HAMAS' stated goal. Annihilation of the Israel state and Israelis is...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:44 AM on 01/09/2009
- Paulo1 I'm a Fan of Paulo1 40 fans permalink

Respecting territorial integrity of Egypt has nothing to do with bombing tunnels in Gaza Michale,

And that whole Right to Exist thing is such a verbal hoax, it is a double bind, how about Israel acknowledging its ethnic cleansing and the Palestinians right of return to their stolen homes? Endless why why why.

Peace comes when you stop using double and triple standards and stop hiding behind all of these non arguments.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 AM on 01/09/2009
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@vinny

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terrorism is a term you and the ambassador use to discount the interests of those you oppose...
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Actually, it's just a term to you. A chic and progressive term that you can subjectively throw around and apply it however it suits you. A term you can rally behind and support.

For me, terrorism is simply something that I have spent a lifetime fighting against..

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you can use the term all you like, but the fact is Hamas represents the will of the Palestinian people...
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Since it is a PROVEN fact that HAMAS is a terrorist organization, then if what you say is true, then the Palestinian people are as guilty of terrorism as HAMAS.

I don't believe this to be true and I am actually surprised that you would think that all Palestinians are terrorists...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:44 AM on 01/09/2009
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And all the Israeli leaders who ordered the bombing of civilians and those who carried out these orders are to be sent to the Hague to face trial for war crimes. And all US funds and weapons cease going to Israel.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:37 AM on 01/09/2009
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You probably wouldn't care that Israel's actions are fully supported by the International Criminal Courts are the Hague, would you?

Didn't think so...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:39 AM on 01/09/2009

What are you talking about?

Their illegal 50 year occupation? LMAO.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:00 AM on 01/09/2009

@ Michale

" .. Your support for Hamas simply blinds you to logic.. "

This comment was directed to me and, as I have indicated, it has no basis in fact. No comment I have made on any Huff-Po article in reference to the invasion of Gaza has indicated a bias toward HAMAS.

My experiences in the military were a little different than yours, if what you say about your own experiences has any veracity. I was a combat infantryman. You seem to have had some sort of intel. support/security position. What I brought back from Vietnam was a clear understanding that war is a business, and ultimately, the real victims of war are the civilian populations caught in the middle of two opposing ideologies, each claiming its individual righteousness of its cause. These people don't give a crap who is right or wrong, or who " wins ". What they give a crap about is surviving the insanity of a war not of their choosing.

Go ahead and label me a HAMAS supporter if it somehow matters to you. Call me a supporter of Israel if it somehow matters to you. But do not label me a supporter of the kinds of atrocities which inevitably befall civilian populations in behalf of inevitably oh-so-rightious causes.

So, sit back in the comfort and safety of your home, Michale, and root for your favorite home team. I lost my appetite for that kind of posturing a long time ago.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:18 AM on 01/09/2009
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I agree with you that it is the innocent civilians that suffer..

The only point of contention is WHO or WHAT is causing the suffering..

I maintain that it is the TERRORISTS and TERRORIST Groups that cause the suffering.

You seem to be of the opinion that it is those who RESPOND to terrorism who are at fault.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:38 AM on 01/09/2009



And how's that global war on " terrorism " and your choice of unilateral diplomacy-­at-the-bar­rel-of-a-g­un working out for you ?? Better count yer ammo.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:00 AM on 01/09/2009
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