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Amy Siskind

Amy Siskind

Posted: September 19, 2010 07:07 PM

Kudlow and Me

What's Your Reaction:

I battled Larry Kudlow on his show, CNBC's The Kudlow Report, over the Paycheck Fairness Act. Larry thinks women are doing just fine. After all, a newly released Bureau of Labor Statistics report shows the gender pay gap closing. Women now earn, on average, 83% of the median weekly wage of men, the highest level in history. And young women (if childless) are actually outearning their male counterparts.












Therefore, Larry posits: let the free market rule. Women don't need to get the government involved. I disagree. Let's look at the story behind the numbers. Of course we do!

Here's what I told Larry Kudlow: "It is morally imperative that a man and woman doing the same job should get the same pay." A moral imperative which I believe extends across sex, race, religion and sexual orientation. But as I've dissected various studies, I've come to understand that the Paycheck Fairness Act, although a step in the right direction, will not get women to where we need to be.

Last week, the Senate reintroduced the Paycheck Fairness Act. Why now? After all, it's been twenty months since the Paycheck Fairness Act, stewarded by then-Senator Hillary Clinton and Rep. Rosa DeLauro, cleared the House. Since then, the Senate has been content to do nothing. I believe women can thank the meteoric rise of the Republican women. Now the Democrats actually have to work to keep women's votes. And what better way than the long overdue issue of equal pay for equal work.

But, time is of the essence. To get to the 60 votes needed in 2009 to pass the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (predecessor to the Paycheck Fairness Act) it took the combined forces of Democrats plus the Republican women senators. Before the anticipated seat shift in November, we all need to contact our senators right away and demand equal pay for equal work (here's the Senate directory.)

And why? Because the most important modern day women's issue is economic security. While poverty statistics are staggering (1 in 7 Americans now live below the poverty line), women continue to be disproportionately impacted. Women also compose the majority of foreclosures and bankruptcies. And women who are not economically secure are often forced to stay, along with their children, in abusive relationships.

The Paycheck Fairness Act will be a step in the right direction. While the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act effectively extended the window of time in which women can sue for pay discrimination, the Paycheck Fairness Act will help ensure that women get paid equally for doing the same job as men.

But equal pay for equal work is just a small part of the overall problem. A 2009 PayScale study found that on average, women make 94% of what men make for doing the same job (see data here). Women who make over $100,000 suffer a much larger pay disparity. But overall, as summarized by Catherine Rampell in an NYT article, there is no Machiavellian plot:

The implication is that in most jobs where a wage gap exists, it is probably not due to overt discrimination, with bosses deciding, Mad Men-style, that women should receive unequal pay for equal work. Rather, in most jobs, the different career choices that men and women make -- or perhaps the different career opportunities men and women have available to them -- account for big differences in pay.

When we get behind the numbers of these studies, here's the real culprit: women do not have equal access to high paying jobs. This is the real root problem that we must address to ensure women's economic security.

Part of the issue is that women have long gravitated to what some refer to as the Pink Ghetto: taking lower wage jobs in professions such as nursing and teaching. These jobs may have been secure during the current economic downturn, which accounts for the vast majority of the closing gender pay gap, but when boom times return, these will still be low paying jobs. Meanwhile, traditionally male jobs, such as construction, will return to being high paying when the economy picks up again.

I believe the biggest culprit of why the pink ghetto exists and thrives is this: women do not have a welcome place in high paying corporate fields. Take for example the field of finance: in the last decade 141,000 (-2.6%) women have left this high paying field, while 389,000 (9.6%) men have been added. As the recent Goldman Sachs discrimination lawsuit illustrates, many of the remaining women live in fear. No wonder women leave!

To get women true economic security, here's what we need to do: we need to increase women's representation in corporate management. And not just at the very top -- or the "glass ceiling." What we really must address is what my colleague Avivah Wittenberg-Cox describes in her recent book How Women Mean Business as "gender asbestos": "In every company, the number of women relative to men drops at almost every management layer -- almost from the very first one."

Here's what I told Larry Kudlow: I'll give you your long-term "free market fix." How? In the short to medium-term, corporations need to focus on diversity. Why? Because it's simply good business, as study after study demonstrates. Women should have three seats on every board, and to borrow a notion from Congresswoman Maloney's The 30 Percent Solution, women should hold 30% of management positions up the chain (currently, that number is closer to 15%).

Once we get there, we will have Larry's free market solution. When we get women into positions of leadership, the rest will take care of itself -- without requiring regulation or government interference. And the best news: our corporations will benefit and thrive from gender diversity!

 

Follow Amy Siskind on Twitter: www.twitter.com/AmyTheNewAgenda

 
 
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Giglawyer
Lions are unconcerned with the opinions of sheep.
11:43 PM on 09/28/2010
Have you ever stopped to think that women as a whole do not want to hold these positions in upper management? You want to enforce some 30% rule - that sounds peachy. Could you actually fill that many slots with qualified women who actually want the job?

Diversity is great if you can get it. I used to work at a large law firm. When it tried to institute a diversity program, it could not attract qualified minority candidates - they were getting offers in bigger cities for more money (and good for them). Then, the firm started getting pressure to lower its standards to achieve diversity. It refused (good for them again). Diversity is a nice goal, but not the end all be all.
02:26 PM on 09/20/2010
You say in your article that in the same jobs there probably isn't discrimination per say, but it's rather that women have less access currently in higher jobs and you want to take care of this with a quota system.

So you say that the issue the bill is attempting to fix isn't an issue, then bring up a different issue and talk about your solution to it. If you don't think that there is actual discrimination going on, on a job per job basis, why would you support a bill who's sole purpose is based on that idea?
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02:14 PM on 09/20/2010
"Kudlow and I"
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
robbcoffee
02:51 PM on 09/20/2010
Depends on the full sentence.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
01:44 PM on 09/20/2010
All jobs where I've ever worked men and women were payed the same. Aside from some (maybe 2 or 3)  high profile positions, and some low profile positions (under the table, not the average job). This is a myth unless you look at SPECIFIC positions in SPECIFIC companies. Saying "average" just perpetuates the myth that the people making sandwiches at Subway are being paid based on gender. Untrue.
08:46 PM on 09/20/2010
My wife is paid less than her male counterparts, even ones who have less experience than her. She is a highly educated hydrogeologist not a subway sandwich maker. Get a clue!!!!
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
09:00 PM on 09/20/2010
For much of the country that is a high profile position. And I believe you. It's unfortunate, and shouldn't be.
jhNY
Mercy.
01:41 PM on 09/20/2010
Time is money-- nobody understands this truth more than one who underpays. For every hour he does so, he pockets the difference. Wage inequality = profit.
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ReadThomasSowell
resist we much and we much about that be commited!
12:48 AM on 09/29/2010
Wrong. Productivity is money. How long would that employee have a job if the employer wasn't motivated by profits?
01:37 PM on 09/20/2010
whoever can negotiate a better salary deserves one. We aren't communists.
06:56 PM on 09/20/2010
There is some truth that women should be taught to go ask for the raise.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
pcrudy
01:19 PM on 09/20/2010
What crap.  This urban pay equity myth has been around longer than that gunman on the Grassy Knoll at Dallas.

Many women wait until their 30's to have kids and then take time off to go home to raise them.  Some, including some lawyers and doctors, etc. stay there once they become 'mommies'.   The 30's are the years when you make your move (i.e. 70 to 80 hour work weeks) and go up the 'ladder' on the way to partner, senior managemenet etc. etc.    Add these women to the 'average' and their average wage goes down.

Many women still don't go into the sciences and technology where the high paying high tech jobs are.  It's changing but still affecting wages of the men vs. women.

Many women still don't and probably won't ever take the dirty dangerous risky physical jobs.  More risk means you have to pay higher wages to attract this type of labor.
jhNY
Mercy.
01:50 PM on 09/20/2010
Refutation requires something beyond the declaration that pay equity is 'crap' and a 'myth'. And arm chair sociology ain't it. Facts from reputable sources? Kindly cite some.

By the way, in my experience, the riskiest jobs, say in construction, are often held by the folks who are paid least. Example: when the carpenter forgets his hammer on the scaffold, now partially dismantled, who goes up to retrieve it? A day laborer. Who strips the asbestos wrap off the hot water pipes? Same guy. Who breathes in all the plaster dust , because he's the guy sanding eight hours with a cheap paper mask? Same guy.
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FTracy3
My micro-bio is as empty as the rest of my life.
04:21 PM on 09/20/2010
I don't agree with everything he said but some of it was common sense and observation (the impact of having kids on highly competitive careers), it shouldn't require a source.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Giglawyer
Lions are unconcerned with the opinions of sheep.
11:44 PM on 09/28/2010
For someone who demand citation from others, you are pretty sparse in citing any sources for your facts. Just an observation.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
01:54 PM on 09/20/2010
That is the problem when they use "average incomes".
redonthehead
Winning trophies for my game face alone
12:04 PM on 09/20/2010
I have a friend who is a teacher. She's been a teacher for the last 9 years. In those nine years she's taken 4 years off for maternity leave. Her income is exactly the same as a man with 9 years experience. In what universe does that make sense? She doesn't have 9 years experience she has 5. This is what happens when the government gets involved.
jhNY
Mercy.
01:51 PM on 09/20/2010
Anecdotal evidence in the form of one whole example is hardly refutation of a general truth.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
robbcoffee
02:57 PM on 09/20/2010
I take this to be a sexist position, and not for the reasons you'd expect.
A woman does not need to take that much time off for pregnancy, so the time needed off for pregnancy is sex-based, but not that big a deal.
The bigger deal is the time taken to stay with newborn children.

Now... the idea that women should be paid less do to the possibility that they might take off time to raise babies is patently sexist. It assumes that a man CANNOT be the primary caregiver in a household.
Men are just as likely to have children as women even if they do not give birth. Why shouldn't it be expected that men will take time off to spend time with their newborn children? Hell, to make the most of our substandard family leave laws, you really need both parents taking turns on leave so that they can get back to work before the kid is eligible for daycare!
And even if you are against daycare, why should a woman be assumed to be the caregiver and a man the breadwinner? Isn't that up to the couple?
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11:56 AM on 09/20/2010
I agree!  Meg Whitman, e-mail me and I'll let you know my paypal account number.
11:49 AM on 09/20/2010
Progressives don't believe adults deserve the freedom to negotiate their own salary. Nor do they believe that employment contracts entered voluntarily, without coercion, should be enforced by the state.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
01:45 PM on 09/20/2010
Please provide a quote that states your myth, from a progressive, not from your dad.
jhNY
Mercy.
01:53 PM on 09/20/2010
Which progressives specifically do you refer to? Cite some please.
06:09 PM on 09/20/2010
Obama and his support for the Lilly Ledbetter bill is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Ledbetter voluntarily accepted a certain salary, and then 19 years later decided she deserved more because some of her co-workers earned more than she did. Obama makes the claim that equal work deserves equal pay, but that is a value judgment that can only rightly be made by the people directly involved in the transaction. How do we know Ledbetter's work was equal to that of her more highly paid co-workers?

What if her work was less valuable to the the employer over those 19 years? Is she going to offer a rebate on her salary to the employer? No. This is a matter of a voluntarily agreed to contract, and the government's role is to enforce that contract, not overturn it in order to appease a special interest group that doesn't understand simple economic reality.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
ThatsTheTheWayItIs
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
11:36 AM on 09/20/2010
I've worked 30 years in high tech, R&D. I've done management and reviews.

The Paycheck Fairness Act is impossible to enforce.
Pay must be based on merit, and merit is subjective

There is no objective way to compare workers performance, male or female.
It's a matter of opinion of the manager, and they don't even agree.
Except for factory jobs and the most menial, employee performance is purely subjective.

That means a manager's review will be scrutinized by Fed authorities, to make sure there is no discrimination. To avoid that, managers will give female workers better reviews than males, for the same quality of work.
schatsie
Wall Street is Worse than Vegas
01:01 PM on 09/20/2010
See propitiousmoment comment...I believe that there is no incentive to properly evaluate employees and that management likes it that way...Yours is a really lame excuse..in the same category with Free Market and Trickle down economics...
02:23 PM on 09/20/2010
You attack their comment, which was fairly detailed by saying it was "Lame". care to elaborate?
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
ThatsTheTheWayItIs
religion, ideology, partisanship are delusional
02:23 PM on 09/20/2010
The proper way to create an incentive is not to make it a Federal crime.

The Fed already creates incentives for equal opportunity and pay when it gives out government contracts, which is a whole lot of money. But then they are acting as the customer, saying "if you want to do business with us, follow our rules". That's a LOT different than "we will tell you how to pay your workers, we will oversee it, and it will be a crime if we deem it unfair."

I would be careful with this. My late best friend and his wife were both RNs, and he was grossly discriminated against, in pay and promotions. Now tell me how you prove that? You want everyone to sue the VA?

A law has to be enforceable or it violates the "cruel and unusual punishment" rule, for example fining managers for giving a review that some committee deems is sexist. Like I said, I would either not be a manager, or I would overpay all females, apparently what you want.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
01:45 PM on 09/20/2010
Too true.
JNarragansett
Check your premises
11:33 AM on 09/20/2010
"Rather, in most jobs, the different career choices that men and women make --"

Well, we can't have a system where the choices that people make for themselves actually have consequences.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Zombeaver
Wooooooooooooood . . .
09:58 AM on 09/20/2010
All too often the "free-market" defense is used to disguise indifference or antipathy; it's intellectually lazy and I always point out this lazyness when I see it. Mr. Kudlow transfers the responsibility to be fair from himself to an abstract concept that is, apparently, above reproach. He might just as well have said, "It's outta my hands lady."
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Suntio
Amat victoria curam.
08:12 AM on 09/20/2010
I have been subject to discrimination at my previous place of employment. I was paid less than men one step lower the ladder were being paid, and I had to put up with a lot of sexual innuendos and comments. My boss was making me feel extremely uncomfortable, always standing too close, putting his hand on my arm and looking at my chest. One time he told me that I was "too cold" towards him. Yuck. Eventually, I got tired of it and left. They are now being sued for discrimination by another female employee and I say good for her, I wish I had had the courage to do it. Hopefully this act will go a long way towards addressing pay inequality and will help women realize that they don't have to take chauvinistic behavior just to be paid what they're worth.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
satanlite
Liberal blogger
01:46 PM on 09/20/2010
What was the company? Or at the very least, what was teh job position?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Torus34
A poor old country mouse.
07:10 AM on 09/20/2010
Mr. Kudlow is, unfortunately, armored against moral and ethical considerations by his dogmatic beliefs. He is the poorer for that.