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Carol Hoenig

Carol Hoenig

Posted: March 8, 2011 06:17 PM

A Sorry Lot, Indeed


There's an Albert Einstein quote that's making the rounds on Facebook, one that I also had as my status because it says exactly how I feel: "If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

Many of us know people whose hope for reward goes hand in hand with fear of punishment. It is often this fear that propels them to become zealots and they use Bible verses -- such as "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Timothy 4:2 KJV) -- to justify their cause. These same people like to dangle the threat of hell and damnation to those who don't accept this belief while then exclaiming that God is a loving, forgiving God; it's just a matter of first rationalizing what is required to go down this condemnatory road.

So while these people, these fundamentalists, are doing their lord's work, such as speaking for their higher power on his behalf by telling the grieving families of dead soldiers that the death was God's punishment for America's stance on homosexuality, they are securing their place for everlasting peace. What's interesting and tragic is that these people tend to ignore Matthew 7:1: "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

I do wonder, though, if heaven weren't part of the bargain, just how these believers would be in our society. This thought actually reminds me of years ago when I believed that the Bible was inspired. I'm embarrassed to say that I was involved in a fundamentalist church, attended Bible studies (even led some) and had Christian music pouring through my house praising God for redemption. There was one song in particular by Evie Tornquist titled "If Heaven was Never Promised to Me" about how a believer should be grateful to have a relationship with God, even if that afterlife wasn't part of the deal. I also have a vivid memory of how two older Bible-believing women thought the song and very idea foolish, one of the women even pooh-poohing the idea by saying, "Why would anyone believe then?"

That was quite likely one of the reasons for the tiny fissures that began to crack what I had accepted as truth during my religious journey. And over time, it became abundantly clear that the idea of everlasting peace in a place called heaven was the carrot and stick approach, one that was used to keep us fallible humans not only in line but subservient to an idea. It's also the same tack that parents use somewhere around Christmas time when they threaten their children that Santa is watching to see if they are good or bad. If they are good, well, they will get an abundance of gifts under the tree on Christmas morning, but if not, well then, a lump of coal is in their future.

But in the song "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town," children are then told to be good for goodness sake. Actually, that makes more sense to me. Why not simply be good because it's the right thing to do? It's as though some believe most of us don't have that innate compass telling us to do unto others as we would like done to ourselves. In turn, those same people who believe their faith is the only one to follow with vehement passion become arrogant, judgmental and display a misguided fervor that is dangerous to an independent society, which makes us a sorry lot, indeed.

 

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
11:07 AM on 03/10/2011
Sorry is the lot. that in the NAME of Christ or the Anti-Christ who do not SPEAK what you say and Christ and Paul said in the King James Version. The DEED, the righteousness or right action each person must choose of Good over Evil. And GRACE, choosing to become THE SPIRIT

Surely not the evil hate of lying of those, to a dead soldiers family, you mentioned. BUT they could have said for the Evil Karma a Nation State has done interfering in unprovoked war and occupation. That surely would ring of at least truth instead. Neither would be the Spirit "kind one to the other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another.
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whirlpool
founder walnut tree congregation
10:18 AM on 03/10/2011
My grandson is being raised Catholic. My Catholic daughter and son-in-law do a pretty good job of explaining to him why grandpa doesn't go to church. ( I will go to his first communion and sit in the cry room.) I am ashamed to admit that the Catholic guilt thing comes in handy once in awhile in his management. But my daughter said that it is okay because then he has something to say at confession.
researcher
researcher
02:30 PM on 03/09/2011
einstein is an interesting guy he is quoted by both the religious and the materialists known as atheists.

and if we look close we all cherry pick our quotes. have not met a religious person or a materialist that did not cherry pick. the preachers appear to be the very best at cherry picking quotes from the bible.

einstein actually considered himself a failure. he was unable to make quantum physics fit his existing paradigm of what he thought the laws of the universe should be. ie he stayed a materialist (but had brief hints of a spiritual awaking) to the very end.

here come the judgments; here come the judgments. :-)
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
11:14 AM on 03/10/2011
Pleasing statement. I like the word materialist. Thanks
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AdorableHero
Conquer your dark side or become it.
01:39 PM on 03/09/2011
Having already given some of my thoughts on general goodness and upon re-reading the article, there's another thing that really bothers me. This article falls into a huge trap I've seen commentators on and against religion fall into time and time again, at least when it comes to Christianity.

This seems to ignore the Christian theologial concept of grace. I don't know what you were taught and I don't know what the funeral-protestors are on about (as far as I'm concerned, Westboro Baptist Church is about as much a model representing Christians as Joseph Stalin is for representing Atheists) - but in the theology I've known, no one can *earn* their way to Heaven (that's the whole reason for Jesus). Maybe some people calling themselves Christians think they can build a stairway, but from every serious Christian I've known I've gotten the impression that they *do* do "good for goodness sake." - Belief may get one to Heaven in their ideaology, but actually doing the right thing doesn't really matter other than "You do this to please God / because all people are created in the image of God / because every life, including yours has a meaning."

Again, maybe uber-fundamentalists are different, but from what I've known, I don't know where non-believers get this whole "You're only good to get to Heaven" idea - unless it's just from the media/shallow pop-culture we grow up in.
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
10:55 AM on 03/09/2011
We atheists are good for nothing.
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08:35 AM on 03/09/2011
I think reward and punishment is partially the issue. You have those who also believe without God in their lives the world will turn into chaos. That is nothing would stop everyone from committing heinous actions toward one another.

It would seem impossible for fundamentalists to be good for goodness sake. Because their supernatural surrogate parent would not be watching.

If you put a tip in a tip jar and no one saw does it count?
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ninetailedfox
banning people.....so childish
07:20 AM on 03/09/2011
One thing I have learned In all my years, especially when it comes to christians, NEVER EVER tell a christian what is right about their religion, They will take it as encouragement to stay inside the religion for as long as possible. There are many people that believe Christianity is a religion of horrors, and it makes it hard to even trust the liberalest of believers, then again, there are even liberal christians that do bad deeds, so the whole idea that being a Liberal or a Christian Pagan, or a Zen christian is better, is a false precept indeed.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
11:21 AM on 03/10/2011
Interesting. Grace, is it then Christian Paganism?

Ephesians 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

Me I would say it was a Buddha, a Krishna, a Christ, The Spirit
03:37 AM on 03/09/2011
Yes!
01:45 AM on 03/09/2011
Great post. As an atheist, being good for goodness' sake is good enough!
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LynneE
A not-so-elite liberal.
12:13 AM on 03/09/2011
Goodness Carol, I read this expecting a "bait and switch," but you told it like it is! Nice work!

Be good, for goodness' sake.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
11:25 AM on 03/10/2011
I thought the "bait and switch" was the believing in Stana Claus so then you would doubt Christ.

Placed there by the same people who say there is only GRACE and no DEED. Believe and take all you want. Boy that does sound like people who could not give up Santa Clause

Gimmy, Gimmy Wanna Wanna
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AdorableHero
Conquer your dark side or become it.
10:50 PM on 03/08/2011
What if one's ideas include everybody getting to some kind of "heaven" eventually? Does one get off your hook, then?

The "embarassment" cited in regards to church and Christian music really struck me. I'm no longer a churchgoer and some of the CDs I have I haven't listened to in years and think "I used to like that?" - But it doesn't come with so much...contempt. I accept that stage of my life and, I never gave up actually believing. I still believe, just in my own way, apart from politics and as far as the arts, I seek out the good stuff rather than the saccharine. No longer a fan of DC Talk, still a fan of U2.

As I see it, everyone who is certain of anything in these matters should doubt, at least a little. Believe in God and Heaven? Take a littel time out to doubt. Believe that there's absolutely no God and that all we do is rot? Doubt it a little. Please. It will help you to not see the people who are different from you as sub-humans.

And speaking of that... I think that if you're *only* doing good to "build a stairway to Heaven," there is a problem, but that there's *just as much* of a problem if you're somene who's doing good *only* to feel like you're *better* than those who are seeking Heaven. Either way is prideful. Do good without contempt or pride.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
11:45 AM on 03/10/2011
Hard to disagree with what you say as an ideal motivation of material action.

Heaven, is a symbolic state of going towards and becoming the Spirit, as Hell is the symbolic state of choosing the material world and going away from becoming the Spirit. Christ taught each person to choose to become the Spirit over the material limited body and mind. He spoke of the Deed of doing good deeds of good over evil and the Grace becoming THE SPIRIT.

Not for reward or saving your body and mind from the Hell (how many times can the body burn or die). But to escape the cause and effect and limitation of the material world of unending emotions and desire. Instead be come aware, conscious that you are the light and energy of the Universe. GOD or Cosmic Consciousness.

Me I like John Fogerty, Allman Brother and Bad Company.
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09:50 PM on 03/08/2011
Good post.
09:06 PM on 03/08/2011
There is a Hasidic tale about a certain rebbe (religious leader) who broke Jewish law to assist a fellow parishioner. A voice from heaven came down and proclaimed that this rebbe has lost his share in the world to come (i.e., afterlife). Upon hearing that, the rebbe rejoiced because now his actions could be committed l'sheim hashamayim (for the sake of heaven).
08:37 PM on 03/08/2011
We give ourselves too much credit when we entertain the thought that our behaviours and actions are not driven by reward-and-punishment. Even our most cherished altruistic intentions owe their existence to a complex of impulses shaped by millions of years of evolution. Deal with it. Free will and mindfulness are but small subsets of a bigger complex of little-understood cognitive processes the bulk of which were around far FAR longer than our 100-thousand-odd-year-old "human" faculties for "reason" and "free will".
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stuoverit
"What year did Jesus think it was?"-GC
10:30 PM on 03/08/2011
Excellent post. Not trying to preach new-atheism at all, but Daniel Dennett's book "Freedom Evolves" is a good read on this, regardless of beliefs.
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AdorableHero
Conquer your dark side or become it.
10:57 PM on 03/08/2011
I tend to think of most altruistic impulses as coming from a place of some degree of selfishness. (Perhaps surprising from a "spiritual person" - but I've thought a lot about it). I tend to see crowing about "doing good for goodness sake" as code for "doing good because it makes me feel like a superior being to those people with other motives." Wearing the superior-pants? Feels good. Even doing good because it feels good - the feeling of good is a reward.

I've also seen the completely secular saying regarding the punishment end: "Some people are only alive becuase it is illegal to kill them." Sadly, I think this is true for some people.
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ninetailedfox
banning people.....so childish
07:22 AM on 03/09/2011
"Some people are only alive becuase it is illegal to kill them."

My algebra teacher had that on her wall in high school. Im surprised nobody asked her to take it down.
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SocBeat
Bald and proud
12:38 PM on 03/09/2011
Why can't we just stop at "doing good for goodness sake" as code for "doing good because it makes me feel good"? Why do we have to add anything about feeling superior to someone else?

In both cases, we're nibbling at the edge of atruism, but one is a lot less judgemental than the other.
08:36 PM on 03/08/2011
Good point indeed. Einstein may not have been the first to address the idea that morality is not just religious business but he is one of the most famous that people really stop and listen.
"The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image - a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere." Albert Einstein

Moral questions can and should be investigated outside of the influence of religion and extremism.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
12:10 PM on 03/10/2011
Human BEING. Does presuppose experiencing, let it be.

May be you have defined a new religion, THE DORIS DAY religion
-Que Sera, Sera

It seems like your are agreeing to the following. I know agree is not you being. But this is a Human Being in the most sense of Being to me.

Ephesians 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;