What if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Had Died?

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times. We practiced sleep deprivation on him for 11 straight days. I don't know how many times we smashed his head against a wall, slapped him in the face, put him in a stress position in a freezing room and/or put him in a coffin sized box in extreme heat. But the right-wing argues that it doesn't matter because none of this is torture. They are adamant in saying that it is not even open to interpretation.

Because, remember, if it's at least open to interpretation, we should investigate to see if laws were broken and we crossed the line into torture. Their logic is that this is so obviously not torture that it does not require any investigation at all! It's an open and shut case.

Obviously, I disagree. It's one thing to admit that this appears to have crossed the line but you have no problem with that because we should be torturing the bad guys to get information out of them (that is a less morally defensible position but at least it's logically consistent). But it's another thing to claim that all of these "enhanced interrogation" techniques are nowhere near torture.

So, let me ask you this -- what if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had died during one of these extreme interrogations?

Here is a perfectly plausible hypothetical: He's had no sleep for eight days, he's exhausted and stuffed in a tiny box in a sweltering hot room with insects crawling all over him, we take him out, smash his head against the wall three times and then waterboard him for the 162nd time. And boom he goes into cardiac arrest and dies on the spot. Did we just torture him to death or was his death just coincidental? Was his interrogation so obviously clean that it doesn't even require an investigation?

Let's get real. If he had died, everyone in the world would have thought it was torture without a shadow of a doubt. As it was, he survived -- so, it's all kosher? No reasonable person can argue that these draconian techniques do not merit an investigation to see if they crossed the line into torture. Especially because we already know that we have in the past considered waterboarding such a serious crime that we have executed people for practicing it against our soldiers.

I know what conservatives are screaming into their computers right now: "But he didn't die! None of them died. So, your question is an absurd hypothetical." Well, here's the problem with that. In fact, many of them did die.

About one hundred of our detainees died when we were holding them. Of these, 34 are suspected or confirmed homicides. We beat people to death at Bagram Airbase and Abu Ghraib using some of the same techniques authorized by the Pentagon and the Bush administration. Military lawyers told the Bush officials that it would be illegal, inhumane and immoral. And they did it any way. Everyone suffered and some died. That's what happens when you torture people.

Now, the folks who did this have the temerity to say that the people who exposed these crimes are making America look bad. How about the people who committed them in the first place?

They add that we should ignore the homicides and the beatings and the drownings because it would be political to look into them. In reality, the only thing that could stop an investigation of these clear abuses is politics. It's their only shield. Otherwise, a Justice Department inquiry would be monumentally obvious.

If anyone outside of a politician had ordered these beatings, they would already be in the middle of a criminal trial. Obviously a regular citizen can't do it. Cops can't do it (imagine how a judge would handle the case if the cop admitted he got the confession by banging the guy's head against the wall and then drowning him within an inch of his life ... 183 times). As the former Bush officials claim that they are being investigated because of politics, the reality is the exact opposite. Politics is their best friend and their only refuge.

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Comments

[Schipperke]

It does not matter if torture saved lives. That's a sad fact, but true. Torture is against the law, our laws and international law. Our government is applying a double standard here that cannot be allowed to stand, Unless we investigate honestly, prosecute those responsible, and do it with the whole world seeing it all we will pay for this dearly down the line. American soldiers will no longer have any right to expect proper treatment under the Geneva Convention. Any American, whether military or civilian, will be rightfully subject to arrest and torture at the whim of a foreign government. If we do not uphold the law we cannot expect to benefit from the protection of the law. There are consequences here that go way beyond the current situation.
The time has come to admit that we, as a nation, are sickened by what our government has done and we will not stand by for torture done in our names no matter what the circumstances. I grow tired of the discussions of whether or not waterboarding is torture, it simply is. I grow tired of the question of whether or not those responsible should be prosecuted, they should. The time, energy and money being wasted arguing those two questions is wasteful and, frankly, stupid. No one, not even the President of the United States, is above the law. That's just how it is.

[Choicelady]

We must prosecute. No 'truth and reconciliation' can be made since we haven't a clue who the suspected tens of thousands who suffered and even died under 'harsh interrogation' were. We cannot make amends and sing kumbayah since we will never EVER see these people or their families. Alex Gibney's amazing and horrifying documentary, "Taxi to the Dark Side" shows one example of a hapless young man getting caught in the web of torture-induced allegations that in turn subject him to torture - and death. How many more were there we have not yet even counted? Torture was used to establish the power and dominance of the US over people we purportedly were 'helping'. It had nothing to do with 'getting the truth' since it produced NONE. We gave up our entire moral core as a nation simply to exert unilateral dominance through imposing terror and fear on innocent people. Those who created the policies must pay for their lawlessness and sheer evil. If it means jailing a former President and Vice President - so be it. It is the ONLY way to move on from our shameful actions and dreadful deeds.

[Rational person]

Torture is a heinous crime, it is illegal under all laws including the US laws, under all laws torture is a crime when it is inflicted on ANY human being regardless of citizenship, torture is a crime regardless of any thing period. Actually torture is a crime when it is inflicted on any living thing not just human beings.

This torture or so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" we have inflicted on these human beings will remain a stigma on those who either have ever approved it, have authorized it, committed it, or even haven't yet denounced it.

ANY thing that would cause ANY kind of pain is by definition a torture.
Waterboarding by definition is torture under our very own laws, actually we executed people who committed waterboarding.
The punishment for Waterboarding any human being is the death penalty under our own laws and under the laws of almost all other countries.

I urge every one of us (the good American people) to do whatever he/she can do to bring justice (contact your representative, contact your congressman, contact president Obama, contact any and all forms of media available to) so those criminals who have ever authorized, approved, committed, or participated in anyway in this clear torturing acts case (or cases) pay for their heinous crimes even if would take years or even decades they should pay eventually for their crime, the most precious American values and laws have been brazenly violated, the whole world knows this fact now.

[Rational person]

Torture is a heinous crime, it is illegal under all laws including the US laws, under all laws torture is a crime when it is inflicted on ANY human being regardless of citizenship, torture is a crime regardless of any thing period. Actually torture is a crime when it is inflicted on any living thing not just human beings.

This torture or so called "enhanced interrogation techniques" we have inflicted on these human beings will remain a stigma on those who either have ever approved it, have authorized it, committed it, or even haven't yet denounced it.

ANY thing that would cause ANY kind of pain is by definition a torture.
Waterboarding by definition is torture under our very own laws, actually we executed people who committed waterboarding.
The punishment for Waterboarding any human being is the death penalty under our own laws and under the laws of almost all other countries.

I urge every one of us (the good American people) to do whatever he/she can do to bring justice (contact your representative, contact your
congressman, contact president Obama, contact any and all forms of media available to) so those criminals who have ever authorized, approved, committed, or participated in anyway in this clear torturing acts case (or cases) pay for their heinous crimes

[kimb54]

Next time you see one of our brave soldiers in your town please express your support for torture, let them know you look forward that if they are captured you find no problem with waterboarding or any of the SERE program being used on them. Because if we are a nation of laws and somehow stand for the moral highground, we need to expect “to do unto others”.

[Conservativevoter]

There ya go kimb54 - acting just like the radicals who spit on the returning Vietnam soldiers decades ago. Haven't you learned anything? You're obviously one of those who would scream the loudest to be saved if the terrorists took aim at you. Personally, I find the whole discussion about torture a diversion from the real problems facing our nation such as, the spending spree going on in Washington, loss of our liberty, and the unprecedented power grab being implemented by politicians - just to name a few.

[SamEllison]

You have proof people were spit upon?
You are making that up, how much more of your blather is made up?

[weekendalpinist]

Those politicians who made the unprecedented power grab were just voted out of office. Now we are just trying to hold them accountable to make sure future politicians don't cause the same damage to our reputation and honor.

[Dunderslapoldmen]

How about this hypothetic­al...suppo­se we could have saved 3000 people from dy-ing the the WTC by watr-boarding some low-life terr-orist...should we have done it??

[CAP6]

Well, let me just say this in answer to your hypo. That terr0ist had better learn how to swim.

[CAP6]

And exactly how many times did KSM waterboard Dani*el Pea*rle before he de*cap*itat*ed him and recorded the gris*sly event for the whole world to witness. I will not defend the abhorent act of torture by the US or any country, but the question on the table is "what if KSM had died". My answer is he has earned his place with his g*od and the sooner he assumes his seat the better. Mr. Pea*rle may have prefered the waterboarding if KSM had provided him that option.

[CherokeeGirl]

The arguments on MSNBC and other news stations is moot. The only question that should be asked now is how to proceed with an investigation in order to uphold the law.

Torture has been outlawed since 1898. The question I'm hearing on the news "will the president back up an investigation?" is also irrelivant. The president cannot choose whether to or not to uphold the law, as it goes against his oath of office to do so. We must not be milktoasts about this. I don't think we've ever prosecuted for war crimes in this generation, and it seems we are unsure as how to proceed. We have to rely on former instances, Neurenber, Korea, Japan, China.

I have come to realize that Obama is walking a dangerous line, it's important that he step back now and let the legal process take over. Whether he likes it or not, or whether it's "the right time" or not is also irrelivant. We cannot decide not to uphold the law cuz it's too hard and we have too many other things to do right now. Obama himself said you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I want Obama to back off now so he will still be around in another 50 years when we need to be reminded again. We will need him after 2016.

[maryinbantry]

Cherokeegirl: thank you for the clear and rational remark. We need to obey our own laws, and those in power must be accountable to us. I do government mandated investigations for a living, and individuals and companies that are paid for by public monies do not have the luxury of saying, "No, you can't investigate here." If the parties in question genuinely feel they are not guilty of any wrongdoing, provide a forum for them to argue their point. But god forbid we should continue to allow them impunity no matter what they may or may not have done. Does anyone here really want to live in a country that is willing to turn a blind eye to everything that somebody does just because they have political power? That is truly a frightening scenario.

[judgejay]

If the current use of aggressive interrogations on a terrorist saves lives then they must be used just as the atomic bomb was used on Japan to save lives. Like it or not the methods used produced information that prevented a number of attacks and saves hundreds if not thousands of American lives.
Are any of you so naive to believe this is the first time such methods have been used to protect Americans during war time.
Yes, WE ARE AT WAR with a enemy that wouldn't blink slitting a your throat never mind killing civilians in mass. These are not soldiers of a nation, they are militant zealots who believe in what they are doing. We need to use ALL MEANS at our disposal to stop these people, anything less will end tragically with many American dead.

[Ipanemagirl]

Its easy to think this way, the simple mind will always come to this conclusion first. Its easy not to care if we even kill those bad guys as we feel tht is what they deserve once we ae sure they are guilty.
But the point is that these methods lead to people making false confessions, which do not help us to punish the right people!. There are more efficient and reliable ways to get the info we need and we know how to use those too.
If your goal is just to have people confirm what you want them to say, by all means torture works , so to get them to say they were in cohoots with saddam, that may have worked, as they will end up saying anything to get you to stop torturing them, but it' s not the truth!
Also, can we now expect not to be tortured when we become the prisoner , if the world knows we torture others? So this puts our military in danger too.

[gustafson]

So what you are saying is we should stup to their level, instead of taking the High Moral ground that this counrty has stood for, for more than 200 years? Become like them, that will really help our standing in the world community, which if you havent noticed, other countrys are going to investigate if we don't. Bottom line - this country never tortured and ..........­..shouldn'­t start!
If you think this get Truthful information, talk to a few of the vet's, from the last few wars, and they will tell you that what we have been doing has done nothing to make this country safer, but has actually made it much worse.......Imflame the middle-east with this kind of action.....not smart!

[Donna Gagnon]

So if insane logic that "if someone doesn't die they haven't been tortured" is to be belived, then all those people who survived the Nazi concentration camps wren't tortured either. Such BS needs to be confronted in the courts. The Bush regime needs to face up to their crimes.

[Rojellio]

If all aggressive, enhanced {or wtf its called} interrogation techniques are off the table... my guess is that there will be less prisoners. Less prisoners means that we use more bullets, or that prison becomes a sweet vacation.

Now that the overseas contingencists {or whatever you lot call terrorists now} are looking forward to being questioned by Ned Flanders, they really aren't afraid of being captured.

[geo493]

Your kidding, right? I sure hope so.

[rf dude]

Personally, I would take waterboarding

over even _talking_

with Ned Flanders...
--

[writerroz]

Sure, sure, Roj, just great to torture other humans to near death, but CERTAINLY DON'T ABORT THOSE FETUSES. And just exactly WHO told you that not torturing would mean less prisoners would be taken? You Limbaugh lovers need to think for yourselves, and you wouldn't come across as being ignorant ditto heads. So let's see you gladly go to Iraq or Afghanistan and offer to become a prisoner because now no one will torture again. Do you get it? Who in their right mind wants to be imprisoned either in America where torture has never been permited or in any war when Americans won't torture? This is insane reasoning by Republicans & Limbaugh who would rather continue the Bush failure than have our economy, jobs and success for ALL Americans restored.

[Ipanemagirl]

well said, writerroz! The R-wingers are so misled and brainwashed by their beloved sadistic talk show hosts , they cannot think intelligently on their own anymore.
It always struck me as ironic, so much fuss about removing cells that become fetuses, yet its okay to send 10,000 of our young men to die and be maimed in a war that was totally unjustified...Bush never cared about the soldiers, he barely pretended to care, he was just in it for his selfish reasons, and our men could die so he could be a war president, and his and Cheneys other selfish ideas....but oh those fetusses are so precious in an over populated world!!!, we should make them pay to raise every one of the unwanted babies on their own salaries, which they would hate to do as this would seem like socialism to them. I find it ironic that the military is so republican, when they are the ones responsible for the deaths and maiming of their children...They have also been duped and brainwashed to think they are fighting for their country!

[CherokeeGirl]

i agree that everyone is acting to weak about this....they probably knew we were too nice to actually hold them accountable for what they did in the name of OUR country.

We are being too nice even CONSIDERING the right's argument that torture has kept us safe.

We should be ashamed for being too nice...instead of simply upholding the law!

[Dunderslapoldmen]

Agreed roj...lot more thu-gs will get a bull-et instead of getting mirandized..which is fine with me

[Buddy McCue]

What about American values?

[vietveter]

Torture is always bad. It doesn't matter who does it.

How many of the tortured "evildoers" [LOL] did die?

Do you think anyone is being told the truth about that?

[bootooyoo]

It's been defined. The problem is, people are pretending to become suddenly confused - if it happened to you, or one of your family members, I'll guarantee you'd have no problem figuring out it was torture.
From the 1975 UN Convention Against Torture -
"Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person....­........."
If you're not a UN fan, just look to our own constitution, the 8th amendment forbids the use of "cruel and unusual punishments", which is widely interpreted as a prohibition of torture.
There are many other examples of the civilized people of the world having defined what is and isn't torture, so that people who apparently can't find their moral compass have something to refer to.

[Tom Joad]

to all those who continue to argue that these methods 'worked', I have a single question: Where is Bin Laden? Apparently, none of those who were tortured (or continue to be tortured) coughed up his location.

[rf dude]

But.... But...

ahhh...er - " No More 9/11 "... (choke)

ummmm......

HEY- protect marriage, ACORN is rigging our elections, every sperm is sacred...
--

[Robster]

What if he died? I don't undertand why his death would be more important to you than the 3000 Americans who died by his hand... roasted, crushed and whos ashes were scattered to the winds of NY city.

[NoMercy]

America stands for the rule of law. The law would mean a trial, which does not require confession, only evidence.

Torturing for information is criminal and immoral.

[TreadingWater]

It's not that his death is any more or less important. The problem is, we don't know if what he confessed to is actually true. Many people confessed to witchcraft, but I don't really believe that they were casting spells. Torture taints the information.

[JimR]

Right, so the question is how can we prevent that from happening again? Will torturing detainees help thwart actual terrorist plots against the U.S.? Or will the detainees "confess" to plots they make up, just to make the torture stop?

[Ugonna]

he's asking if the Repubs would still deny that it was torture if he died.