I was reading Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins" recently, when I came across one of his early arguments for a broader look at salvation. He suggests that, if the notion some maintain about the risks of eternal damnation are real, the most compassionate thing to do is to kill all of our children before they reach an age at which they are held accountable for their actions. This, he says, would be the only way to ensure they aren't doomed to hell later in life.
A hyperbolic example for illustration's sake, of course, but as a father of two, something about it really shook me. How do we ever know until it's too late if we're doing the right thing in how we raise our kids?
Consider Abraham, one of the cornerstones of the Judeo-Christian faith. He's the man from whom we all descend. But according to his example, I should be willing to kill my own children to prove I am a faithful servant of God. Though I understand the idea of placing faith in God before all else, including my own family, mostly what I come away with from this story is a bitter taste in my mouth for a God that would require such a test.
Though many focus on the testing of Abraham in this story, there is another angle to consider. As Rebecca Bowman Woods points out in "Banned Questions About The Bible," the practice of child sacrifice was common in Abraham's time. It's reasonable to consider then, that the author of this story is claiming that the God of Abraham doesn't require such offerings, because he stopped Abraham.
Personally, I identify with this interpretation, since we see time and again that God inclines toward mercy in relationship with humanity. It does pose a serious theological hurdle for those who maintain a belief in substitutionary atonement: the belief that God sent Jesus to die for our sins.
Also in the "Banned Questions" book, David Lose writes that although we may not find a comfortable interpretation of such stories, there is a subtext of hope. "God will provide what is necessary," says Lose, "and the righteous anger against God it may cause cannot remove one from relationship with God."
It's reassuring to consider that God can handle my anger. I remember trying to punish my parents growing up with scowls and silent treatment. It was only after I became a dad myself that I understood what a welcome relief such self-imposed quiet can be. So if I can handle my kids' anger, it's fair to assume God can deal with mine.
Another premium for any parent is to try and be fair, especially if you have more than one child. From special attention to birthday presents and slices of cake, there's an obsession in our culture implying that fairness is the same as parity. Some minor issues, like the slices of cake are easy to solve; let one kid cut the cake, and let the other one pick the first slice.
But despite our best efforts, something will always come along that will be labeled as unfair. But in examining scripture, I've come away with the sense that God's fairness hardly resembles our human understanding of the word.
Consider the workers in the vineyard (Mt. 20:1-16), all of whom get the same wages, while some work all day and others labor only an hour. Imagine how the guy who sweated all day for the same reward felt. Or the Prodigal Son, who ignored parental advice and conventional wisdom, blowing his entire inheritance and coming back to dad poor and humiliated.
Instead of offering an "I told you so" lecture like I probably would, his father welcomes him with open arms, gives him a gift and throws a party. Personally, if I were the faithful son who had stood by my father's side the whole time, I'd be more than a little pissed off by his generosity.
The prophet Malachi recognized the frustration of faithful Jews who did not care for the idea that there was no separate justice for those who didn't follow God's law (Malachi 3:14-15). This concern about no different fate for good and evil also evidences itself in Ecclesiastes 8:14-15:
"There is a vanity that takes place on earth, that there are righteous people who are treated according to the conduct of the wicked, and there are wicked people who are treated according to the conduct of the righteous. I said that this also is vanity. So I commend enjoyment, for there is nothing better for people under the sun than to eat, and drink, and enjoy themselves, for this will go with them in their toil through the days of life that God gives them under the sun."
Here the speaker, who is thought to be Koheleth, a preacher, seems to decry the unfairness, and effectively says, "Why bother? We all get treated the same in the end." Jesus affirms this notion of justice in Matthew 5:45 when he says, "... your Father in heaven... makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
One of the best and worst things at the same time about scripture is that it can be used to make nearly any point. If we want to justify corporal punishment, testing our children or even handing them over to an angry mob to be gang-raped (see Lot and his daughters, Genesis 19:30-38), we can find scripture to point to.
But if there's one theme that seems to prevail in seeking the parental nature of God in the Bible, it is one of unconditional, inexhaustible forgiveness, mercy and love. I'm hardly there in my own parenting, but as many have said before me, God is God, and I'm not. And that bodes well for all of us.
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This apparently Biblically suggested human fallibility, rather than God, appears reasonably accountable for certain of the unseemly acts apparently recorded in the Bible. I humbly submit to you the following BlogSpotThinker posts (http://blogspotthinker.blogspot.com) and welcome your thoughts.
Such are the sacred writings.
IMO, it's an indicator for a lack of intelligence on the part of the parent if you need to resort to violence to discipline your children.
I grew up in a very Catholic family in a very Catholic Neighborhood; there was lots of child abuse in my neighborhood. Lots of my childhood friends were abused by their Christian parents. I decided to break that Christian cycle of violence.
I've seen many a "poor" parent attempting to talk down a tantrum laced child and threatning them with timeouts or taking away of priviledges and you wondered who was in control of the relationship the child or the parent. I'm not saying everyone has to spank their children, but I would hardly say no one should either.
To me its an indicator of lack of intelligence to make a sweeping generalization about people who believe in using a parenting tool with which you disagree.
In my opinion, the potential "cons" of using physical punishment with a child far outweigh the "pros." The purpose of a punishment is to teach a child what behaviors are unacceptable and to prevent the child from using these behaviors.
Example: If your child hits another child, and you respond by hitting him, no matter what your words are ("no hitting," "no hurting"), your actions are saying otherwise. Your actions say to him that hitting is acceptable behavior.
It is certainly true that many people have been raised with an occasional spanking and turned out "just fine." (By "occasionally" I would say perhaps once every two weeks or longer.), However, in my personal experience, there are a lot more people that have serious lifelong problems and did not turn out “just fine”. I find with all of my children that other forms of discipline simply worked far better.
If you want the "real" story, read the Bible and find out what it says about parenting. It's definitely no episode of the Cosby Show, that's for sure.
Yet, instead of the realization that perhaps what was appropriate and valid thousands of years ago simply does not and can not apply in today's world, people choose to rail against the modern world and pine for a time when sassy-pants children were to be stoned to death???
I'll never understand the religious. And I am eternally thankful for that.
I believe the fear of being spanked promoted more acquiescence in those children. I think we can say that the fear of being stoned to death would also promote a bit less independence on the child's part. That fear in reality is a form of child abuse.
If it happened that in our current era - 2011, that you suddenly heard a big, authoritative voice in your head, commanding you to k i l l someone, anyone, to demonstrate your love to the "speaker" or anyone else, would you:
A - do exactly what the voice said, being careful, using what remained of your rational facilities to 1- keep it a secret from the wife and 2- maintain the element of surprise. Or
B - Use what remained of your rational facilities to check yourself into a modern psychiatric care facility for observation and treatment.
Maybe this will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuMfEAp31HE
A child can live a pretty good life without the Lord-but that is life on earth. The idea is to get back to Heaven because that is the greatest goal of any person. The responsibility of achieving that rest with the individual but a truly good parent would expose his children to the Lord and tell them about what is at stake. To me, the parent that gives his atheist/agnostic point of view to his children is really bad parent. That parent would rather impose his world and personal view about God rather than being humble and say, “Children, there are a many things that I do not know about this world and universe. Believing in God is one thing that can’t hurt you…no matter what I or the learned people in the world think It can't hurt to believe in God."
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So, you think filling their heads with rubbish is beneficial? I raised three daughters, all grown up with their own families now and I never pushed them either way about religion. All three of them went to the Girl Guides (Christian based) when they were young and the only time religion was brought up was when THEY asked questions, and as I would NEVER lie to my kids, I gave them my point of view on religion. As teenagers they came to their own conclusions about the myth of jesus and the invisible man up in the sky...education and finding things out for yourself is a wonderful thing, not being brainwashed from the cradle to the grave.
I talk to educated christians today and when they are stuck on a question their reply is..."Well,god did it!" No rationale for the statement other than brainwashing from childhood, which I find the saddest thing within the corruption of religion, abusing young minds and not allowing them to think for themselves.
Again, If you can tell be just one, uno ,2-1, one divided by one, one times one things wrong with the teachings of the Bible, Jesus and God's Will, then we can have a meaningful discussion. But using words and statements like "myth", "invisible man in the sky", "brainwashed", "no rationale for the statement", "corruption of religion". "abusing young minds," "not allowing them to think for themselves" reveals to me the though patterns of a truly brainwashed mind. Your comments sound like a parrot. As a humanitarian and a person that loves people, I must warn you (as doe the Bible) that wrath is hanging over you head and a "contract" has been put out on everyone that doesn't erase the inequity that resides in their hearts. You are part of a crucible-the Garden of Eden saga was a manifestation of that crucible. You gave your children a parroted and emotional (not rational-since you didn't even know that you were part of this crucible) point of view that fed into their youthful lusts. You in effect gave them over lasciviousness with your blessings and denouncement of something (Christianity) that could only make them better people...and the ONLY MECHANISM for the individual to get right with God. You must always remember, this is part of the crucible...beleive it or not.
“He suggests that, if the notion some maintain about the risks of eternal damnation are real, the most compassionate thing to do is to kill all of our children before they reach an age at which they are held accountable for their actions.”
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Do you see that? There is not even one. Not one Christian.
I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. What is recorded in the Bible is true...we have all earned eternal damnation because we have in our hearts to betray God (Genesis 3:4; 22). Man cannot handle power and this has been written about through the ages. If they would have attained God's power (which is what Adam and Eve sought), they would have laid a trap for God and killed Him. That is in ALL OF US… including those who actually believe that they are "good" and can be good without God. It is because of love that God sent Jesus to the world to erase our inequity and be made righteousness before God. The person, who steers a person away from that MECHANISM for righteousness, hates his fellowman! That person isn't doing his fellow man any favors by boasting that s/he is a "critical thinking", "relies upon reason" and is too smart to believe in fairy tales or some "invisible man in the sky". That person is not a friend but a fiend and saboteur.
I can move forward when you get back with scripture references to support your position.
Couldn't agree with you more! You should, however, read the Bible-as a scholar-not as some sarcastic know -it-all, and it will make perfect sense to you. BTW, there were no "apples", oranges, bananas, or fruit coacktail in the Garden. If you were truly smart person, logic would have forced you to have become more courious about that story. don't mean to be harsh but I do get frsutrate with illogical people. Gues you're not as "logical" as you thought you are!
That's an entertaining rebuttal. Mostly because your own logic is so mysterious.
You can't judge an author who lived 2000 years ago by the standards of our day. You can only judge them by the standards of their own day.
Yes, that is what I mean about the wife/husband relationship. As for parenting, I was referring to Ephesians 6:
"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, because this is right. Honor your father and mother —which is the first commandment with a promise--that it may go well with you and that you may have a long life in the land. And fathers, don't stir up anger in your children, but bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."
Did you miss that part?
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ. Don't [work only] while being watched, in order to please men, but as slaves of Christ, do God's will from your heart. Render service with a good attitude, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that whatever good each one does, slave or free, he will receive this back from the Lord. And masters, treat them the same way, without threatening them, because you know that both their and your Master is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with Him."
It's not relevant here.
The Good News is that Jesus died on the cross and man is forgiven of his sins by confessing with his mouth and believing in his heart that Jesus is Lord. This means that the human sacrifice, burnt offerings, pillars of salt, etc. of the Old testament are history. We now live in an age of grace which replaced the Mosaic Law that required godly acts for sanctification. The old is gone and the new has come; none of that stuff in the Old Testament concerning salvation is relevant today. Of course much of the teachings are relevant, such as the worship of the Psalms, the warnings of the consequences of Israel's misdeeds, and the prophecies of the coming of Jesus.
As for the vineyard, the point is that salvation can come at any point in life. It can come in childhood, like the workers in the morning, or on the deathbed, like the workers in the evening. No worker should have complained because they all received that they bargained for (that is, salvation).
The prodigal son learned that salvation cannot be lost. He was loved by his father as a child, was missed while he was away, and was welcomed with open arms when he returned.
Well, either way your comment makes no sense.